Tolivers Training Camp of Obedience

[martian]

I always, ALWAYS wonder about this. Most humans - not only women or only mothers - just have an instinct that babies are to be protected, even if they don't necessarily like them. If these people believe that God made women to be mothers and gave them all these innate nurturing qualities, why do they have to suppress it to such a high degree? I remember Victoria Botkin on one of her audio things or lectures (don't remember which) saying that hitting "goes against a Mommy's heart". Well, yeah, no shit, and don't you believe that "Mommy's heart" is made by God to be a repository of special feminine qualities?

I think Michael Pearl definitely fits into the "comfortable shoe" category, btw.

The amount of suffering the Pearls are responsible for, can you imagine living with it? I think I'd be like Lady Macbeth, forever trying to get the blood that only I can see off of my hands. But I bet they're sleeping just fine.

It makes me wish I believed in an afterlife, because I don't believe any justice will ever be served the Pearls in this one.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Yeah, hitting your baby goes against every natural instinct fundies believe God gives them. So does scheduling feedings, apparently women with new babies make milk when they hear their baby crying, which says very clearly that God wants babies to be fed when they cry. We have the urge to love and protect our children because we are not supposed to beat them and kill them, we want them to get the opportunity to grow up.

I dont know how the Pearls sleep at night. If I wasnt so convinced they were psychopaths though...

[thoughtful]

The amount of suffering the Pearls are responsible for, can you imagine living with it? I think I'd be like Lady Macbeth, forever trying to get the blood that only I can see off of my hands. But I bet they're sleeping just fine.

It makes me wish I believed in an afterlife, because I don't believe any justice will ever be served the Pearls in this one.

I always say that the the punishment I wish on people like them is that they come to a true realization of what they have done, really understand what monsters they are, and live with that for the rest of their lives. That would be true justice, since, being punished only by outside forces would just make them staunch in their self-perceived martyrdom.

I can't imagine it ever happening, though. :(

[lizziesmom]

That isn't parenting, it's abuse....plain and simple!

I happened to catch "Mommy Dearest" on tv today. It was a movie made in the 80s about Joan Crawford and the way she treated her two oldest children, particularly her daughter Christina. Reading this thread made me think about how that witch parented and how screwed up her kids were as a result.

[LadyBlue]

The thing these abusers don't get, is if you're in a situation where you need your kids to obey you instantly, like the car coming or the jeep thing, most kids will hear the terror in your voice and they will listen. Some kids won't, but those are the same kids these people are probably beating nearly constantly for not listening.

I feel bad for the obedient kids in these homes, but I feel worse for kids like my 2nd and 3rd sons who are particularly...stubborn. I deeply regret it, but when the 2nd one was 5, my husband was in hospital for several months, I had a 1 year old and I was beyond stressed and snapped/hit him a couple times. His reaction was just push even harder whatever it was that got me so mad in the first place. I very quickly realized that hitting him was never going to get him to do whatever it was, it was just getting in the way of our relationship and instead of just feeling stressed, I was stressed and miserable, hating myself for hurting him.

For some reason, these fundies don't seem to have any sense of shame or regret or anything else that would cause them to figure out what they're doing is wrong. If they had been his parent, I have no doubt it would have just escalated, possibly to a Lydia Schatz type situation.

[1tiredmama]

Where do these people live so I can call cps? If we know where they live, why is cps not being called each and every time?

[dairyfreelife]

The thing these abusers don't get, is if you're in a situation where you need your kids to obey you instantly, like the car coming or the jeep thing, most kids will hear the terror in your voice and they will listen. Some kids won't, but those are the same kids these people are probably beating nearly constantly for not listening.

That is exactly my experience as well from baby sitting. Yelling "Stop!" in fear gets them to stop and turn to you. There's no need for instant obedience training. They listen because your tone of voice is alarming to them and they learn that tone means something serious. It's like when parents give you a "look". They don't have to beat them. Children learn your limits quickly. I've never spanked a child I babysat. They still learn my limits quickly anyway.

[Flossie]

Completely off-topic, but I keep reading the thread title as "Toilet Training etc."

[Hane]

These "Instant Obedience NOW!!! It's US against THEM!!!" people make me tired. I KNOW I have more power than a child does, and I know I understand the world better than a child does. I don't have anything to prove to a child regarding power dynamic. I choose to use my mom/grandma/auntie/babysitter powers for good and not evil. I'd rather use loving guidance than boot camp tactics, thankyouverymuch.

My son-in-law gave me this anecdote last night: my 5-year-old grandson (a Good Sleeper) had a couple of friends (Bad Sleepers) for a sleepover on a school night (emergency babysitting situation). The guests wouldn't settle down, and my grandson needed to sleep.

So my (very calm and quiet) SIL went into the room and said in his Dad Voice (businesslike but far from harsh), "Ev is tired and needs to get up for school in the morning. It's time for you to get into bed and play quietly so he can." AND THEY DID. No hitting or shaming involved.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I dont think instant obedience is as important as fundies think.

There are times when a child needs to obey their parents instantly, like if they were running towards a road or the house was on fire or something, but kids dont need to obey instantly in every situation for that possibility-they pick up pretty quickly from the tone of their parents voice.

Its also wrong because it doesnt teach children to question authority, just blindly do as they are told. This is a bad thing-what happens if a corrupt authority figure tells them to do something immoral, or tries to molest them or something?

Its creepy too. Michael Pearl has said in one of his articles that his unquestioning first time obedience is so ingrained in his children, that his kids will instantly sit down if he points at the floor and shouts "SIT", and if he says "HOT" his kids will drop the thing they are carrying even if they are holding something that is cold. These are adults, with children of their own, some of them are bigger than him, and they are still conditioned into obeying like that.