Tolivers Training Camp of Obedience

[dairyfreelife]

Meet the Tolivers, a family of 10 living in Texas, who get their ideas for training from No Greater Joy Ministries.

toliverstotexas.com/2010/08/happy-family-most-of-time.html

toliverstotexas.com/search/label/training%20to%20obey?max-results=20

We set up Training Camp. With a capital TC.

For an hour or so, I went about the house as I usually do, cleaning, putting stuff away, etc, and insisted that this boy, who I love dearly, stay right by my side. The instant he started to wander, I would swiftly administer punishment (which is also training!) and say, "Stay with Mama."

The same thing would happen if he'd start to ask for something or complain. Immediately I would deal with the disobedience and then we'd get back to him staying right smack by my side and quietly submitting his stubborn will to authority. So he learned to obey my voice and to stay with me when I wanted him to.

Please note that if you get your child in the habit of obeying you on the fourth, fifth, thirty-seventh time, you are not helping them at all. You are teaching them disobedience is okay, and you're allowing yourself to get irritated and angry with each infraction. Their lives may depend on it some day, and certainly their souls, because God commands obedience too.

With my 17 month old, she sits on my lap as I read to the 4yo and 5yo. Within a page or two, she starts to squirm to get down. I give her chubby little thigh a light tap and say "No, sit still." Now, it is literally a light tap, but for a child who wants to do what she wants to do when she wants to do it, this is a huge deal and she wails like you wouldn't believe. But she learns to surrender her stubborn will to authority and also what "No, sit still" means.

[merrily]

*shudders* why have kids if you want pint sized robots?

[RachelB]

*shudders* why have kids if you want pint sized robots?

I know, right? You don't have to feed robots, it's easier to find replacement parts, and you needn't worry that all their pent-up resentment will lead them eventually to put you in the shittiest nursing home available.

[thoughtful]

Fuckers. Sick, filthy fuckers.

This is the only stuff we discuss here that brings out my urge to curse -- in fact, I can't find words nasty enough to describe these people.

Besides the viciousness, the lack of knowledge about children is mind-boggling. Can you imagine someone who was blogging about, say, vegetable gardens, sure of their own expertise, writing:

"My tomato plants had these funny-looking yellow flowers on them, so I applied some ammonia and vinegar. But, they came back during our vacation, and there were even some round green and red things on there. I plucked them all off and sprayed Round Up on them."

:shock:

Moving and talking is what you should want your children to do, asshole!

[ThatSnark]

That's a great line she uses: "him staying right smack by my side and quietly submitting his stubborn will to authority." Right SMACK by her side. Couldn't have described it more plainly.

I feel like crying.

[infooverload]

What was with their life will depend on it line about discipline? Last I checked a 17month old, 4 year old and a 5 year old are not enlisting in the armed services. Yes discipline is important to set boundaries, but you do not need to smack a child to do so. All it is in my opinion is lazy parenting that can only be practiced in the boundaries of your home. Once a child is old enough you should be able to say okay we are going out to the car if you do not behave if in a public place. Spend a few minutes there doing a time out and it is reasonable measured response that allows for you to stay calm like an adult should.

[RosyDaisy]

That isn't parenting, it's abuse....plain and simple!

[thoughtful]

What was with their life will depend on it line about discipline? Last I checked a 17month old, 4 year old and a 5 year old are not enlisting in the armed services.

It's the Pearl worst-case-scenario crap. From TTUAC:

Last winter, my two girls, nine and eleven, were riding with me in the old 4x4 Army truck. The gravel road was bumpy and rough. When I made a stop at an intersection, I heard the two, twelve-volt batteries, which are located right behind the seats, shortout and begin to arc. An explosion of spraying battery acid was potentially imminent.

The girls understood none of this. However, when I said (this time in a raised voice), "Get out fast!" they didn't ask, "Why?" I immediately got out on my side to run around and open their usually jammed door. As soon as I cleared the door on my side, I looked over my shoulder to see how they were doing. They were gone. The door was still closed, and the window, which also sticks, was only open about half way. But, they were nowhere in sight. When I got around to the other side, there they were piled up in the gravel road rubbing sore hands and knees. "How did you get out?" I asked. "Through the window," they choked out. "Head first?" I asked. "You said get out fast," was their accusing reply.

My son, who was driving another truck behind me, said, "I didn't know what was happening. Suddenly they both came flying out the window head first and landed in the road." I had trained them to jump upon command. They did. There may come a time when their safety or survival will depend on instant obedience. "Duck!" or "Hit the deck!" has saved more than one life.

Of course, I think he also does it for his own sick entertainment:

Even today, without looking at the children, I can snap my finger, pointing to the floor, and they all (including the ones over six-feet) immediately sit. I can point to the door, and they all take it. When a visit develops into a counseling session, I have given the gesture for the children to vacate the room and the company never knew what prompted everyone to leave. Teach your children to "snap to it." They will be better for it, and it will make them more lovable--which makes for more loving.

When the first fires of fall were lit, I would coax the toddler over to see the fascinating flames. Of course, they always wanted to touch, so I held them off until the stove got hot enough to inflict pain without deep burning--testing it with my own hand. When the heat was just right, I would open the door long enough for them to be attracted by the flames. I then move away. The child would inevitably run to the stove and touch it. Just as his hand touched the stove, I would say, "Hot!" It usually took twice, sometimes three times, but they all learned their lesson. Other than the training session, where we never even raised a blister, we never had a child get burned. It was so effective that, thereafter, if I wanted to see them do a back flip, all I had to do was say, "Hot!!" They would turn loose of a glass of iced tea.

:angry-banghead:

[merrily]

I know, right? You don't have to feed robots, it's easier to find replacement parts, and you needn't worry that all their pent-up resentment will lead them eventually to put you in the shittiest nursing home available.

I mean... I have this odd fascination with serial killers and their history, and it seems like most of them came from abusive homes. One of them, I forget who, had a mother who uses the very same Pearl-like methods on him. It's only time that a combination of abuse natural disposition that the very fundies applauding breaking the spirit of a child will recoil in horror at the Frankenstein they've created.

[RachelB]

What was with their life will depend on it line about discipline? Last I checked a 17month old, 4 year old and a 5 year old are not enlisting in the armed services. Yes discipline is important to set boundaries, but you do not need to smack a child to do so. All it is in my opinion is lazy parenting that can only be practiced in the boundaries of your home. Once a child is old enough you should be able to say okay we are going out to the car if you do not behave if in a public place. Spend a few minutes there doing a time out and it is reasonable measured response that allows for you to stay calm like an adult should.

I assume they're working from the assumption that how a child responds to parental authority directly indicates how that child will respond to religious authority and that their eternal life will depend on unquestioningly, immediately, cheerfully following God's instructions (even if that involves slaying the Amalekites, every last one of them).

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Of course she throws in this gem about work ethic:

Unfortunately, our nation is also full of examples of people whose privilege level fails to match their responsibility level - to the great detriment of the entire country! I talk with the kids about how their hard-working father puts in so many hours just to pay our taxes and that money goes to subsidize some people who are perfectly capable of, but not willing to, work

[hywelis]

This is wrong on several level.

First, it's lousy communication. My verbally and emotionally abusive father used to be in the habit of doing something like this, tho less extreme to be fair... he'd point at something and my Mum or I would have to figure out what he was pointing at and what he wanted done with it, or he'd get in a tizzy. It's one of the many things I resented and I'll always resent about him (even tho he doesn't do it any more now that I own the apartment we live in... funny how abusers can actually control themselves, contrary to some people's beliefs). One talks to people and formulates a polite request. There's nothing un-authoritative in telling a child "Please sit down" or "You need to leave the room now, So-and-So and I would like some privacy".

Second, it models terrible manners. These kids are going to have loads of trouble in relating to non-rude people, if that's the way they're learning to communicate.

Hywelis

[doggie]

children or trained attack dogs? hard to tell the difference in their training methods.

[eowyn1217]

I don't get it.

I mean, I do. I was raised by older (30s when they had me) parents, who only wanted children because that's what the church taught them was right and Godly, and therefore became their highest goal. Sadly, they were only able to have me, but I wasn't enough, so they adopted later on. No, I'm not bitter, but thanks for asking. ;) The whole idea was that children are the crown of the parents, and don't deserve autonomy, because they are reflections - at all times - of the parents, and there to glorify the parents lives. That's where this idea comes from...but our children AREN'T our own, they AREN'T ours to mistreat and abuse and "correct" into "submission". They are individual souls. My husband and I have 2 toddlers. Yes, we correct them and teach them the right way to act, as much as we can, but at the end of the day, they have their own personalities, minds, wishes, etc. They can (and will) scream sometimes for no other reason than because they want to walk around the store, and nothing can change their mind. But I don't beat them - I realize that they have their own ideas of how life should be, and that's ok.

But not to fundies like this - nothing is ok unless your dad says so. And any parent who purposefully demonstrates how he has so abused his children to the point that even the adult ones follow his commands like dogs, should be ASHAMED. When my husband and I were dating, I remember my dad (who was a 'reformed' sadist --- cough, I mean a fundie) making me rub his feet with lotion when my now-husband was over, purely because my mom wouldn't do it, and it showed how he ruled his home. If I had said no, you would not believe the guilt trips that would have happened. Although, in retrospect, I was very lucky because there was mostly only emotional abuse, and not physical.

[dairyfreelife]

What was with their life will depend on it line about discipline?

It has to do with the old car and obedience situation

One day when our oldest son was three years old, we were leaving the grocery store. As we walked into the parking lot he was walking slightly ahead of the shopping cart I was pushing - full of his baby sister and our groceries.

Just as we stepped out into the road, I saw a terrifying sight out of the corner of my eye. A car - driven by some crazy teenager I believe - was careening around the corner and coming right toward us. A few more steps and a few more seconds and my little boy and the car would collide.

It was one of those moments when everything happens so quickly you don't even have time to think.

Instantly I said one word, "Stop". My son stopped immediately as the car went racing past - without a care in the world.

Just thinking of that moment eleven years ago still makes me shudder (and thank the Lord!). It also makes me realize I've become lax with later children in teaching first time obedience.

toliverstotexas.com/2012/04/crazy-notion-of-first-time-obedience.html

[Mama Mia]

It's the Pearl worst-case-scenario crap. From TTUAC:

:angry-banghead:

The real question is why on earth would they be driving their children in an old army jeep with sparking batteries next to the passengers with a door that doesn't open and a window that only goes down half way !

How incredibly irresponsible !

I guess it is extra important to have your kids immediately snap to attention if you are going to put them in danger like that. Horrible people.

[infooverload]

I don't get it.

I mean, I do. I was raised by older (30s when they had me) parents, who only wanted children because that's what the church taught them was right and Godly, and therefore became their highest goal. Sadly, they were only able to have me, but I wasn't enough, so they adopted later on. No, I'm not bitter, but thanks for asking. ;) The whole idea was that children are the crown of the parents, and don't deserve autonomy, because they are reflections - at all times - of the parents, and there to glorify the parents lives. That's where this idea comes from...but our children AREN'T our own, they AREN'T ours to mistreat and abuse and "correct" into "submission". They are individual souls. My husband and I have 2 toddlers. Yes, we correct them and teach them the right way to act, as much as we can, but at the end of the day, they have their own personalities, minds, wishes, etc. They can (and will) scream sometimes for no other reason than because they want to walk around the store, and nothing can change their mind. But I don't beat them - I realize that they have their own ideas of how life should be, and that's ok.

But not to fundies like this - nothing is ok unless your dad says so. And any parent who purposefully demonstrates how he has so abused his children to the point that even the adult ones follow his commands like dogs, should be ASHAMED. When my husband and I were dating, I remember my dad (who was a 'reformed' sadist --- cough, I mean a fundie) making me rub his feet with lotion when my now-husband was over, purely because my mom wouldn't do it, and it showed how he ruled his home. If I had said no, you would not believe the guilt trips that would have happened. Although, in retrospect, I was very lucky because there was mostly only emotional abuse, and not physical.

How did your now husband respond to this later when you guys were alone. Was he a little weirded out? I would think that would just be weird and in a way it kind of screams rude manners. I wouldn't dream of putting lotion on my feet with company over and certainly wouldn't ask my spouse to do it with people over.

[cindyluvs24]

What was with their life will depend on it line about discipline? Last I checked a 17month old, 4 year old and a 5 year old are not enlisting in the armed services.

Yes discipline is important to set boundaries, but you do not need to smack a child to do so. All it is in my opinion is lazy parenting that can only be practiced in the boundaries of your home. Once a child is old enough you should be able to say okay we are going out to the car if you do not behave if in a public place. Spend a few minutes there doing a time out and it is reasonable measured response that allows for you to stay calm like an adult should.

This. I read somewhere about how Hitler's SS used similar training methods on their recruits. They were trained to instantly obey any command. Such commands included murdering a puppy they had trained, among other little tidbits. nice, huh?

[lorem ipsum]

The real question is why on earth would they be driving their children in an old army jeep with sparking batteries next to the passengers with a door that doesn't open and a window that only goes down half way !

How incredibly irresponsible !

Ha, that was my thought too!

Like thoughtful, this stuff is the only thing I read about here that really gets me riled up. I actually often won't even read these topics when they first come up because I have to kind of mentally steel myself before I can stomach a description of what kind of "training" some asshole is putting their child through. :angry-steamingears:

My boys recently turned 3, and they are in their most challenging phase yet. They're smart, fast, fiercely independent, and one in particular is quite stubborn (just like his mama, lol), which means they are testing boundaries right, left and centre. And in all honesty, I've been frustrated and exasperated to the point of - for a split second - wanting to shake/swat them to snap them out of whatever they're doing.

But I don't.

Because I have no interest in punishing them for being normal little children doing normal little children behaviours, and no interest in crushing their spirits and turning them into little robots. They assume a raised hand = a high-five, and as far as I'm concerned that's the only thing they should associate it with.

::off to find something to angry-clean::

[Syd+Marky]

A 17 month old child does not learn what "no, sit still" means when she gets smacked.She learns that if she wiggles around she gets smacked.

[martian]

I think there must be something not right from the start with the people who take to these methods. I mean, people snap and do terrible things, but how do you cold bloodedly and in smug self-righteousness hit a baby unless there's something really wrong with you? How doesn't that distress cry go right to your gut and to your lizard brain and trigger your protective instincts? She's absolutely dismissive about her baby being distraught over being hit. And, oh, that must be excruciating for the other little kids to witness knowing that if they say anything it's likely them next.

I wonder if it's a relief to these people when they find a system that organizes and validates their violent inclinations. Like slipping into a comfortable pair of shoes.

[RachelB]

Something I don't understand:

At some point, even the most sheltered child is going to be in a situation where he or she has to make a decision-- even a small one-- without assistance.

Do people who put their children through this kind of obedience training ever teach their children how to exercise independent judgment? Because obedience exercises are clearly designed to discourage independence. Maybe they envision their female children being passed directly on to a husband who'll tell them what to do, but surely they want the boys to be able to be able to solve problems on their own. Mom and Dad aren't going to live forever.

(Though I was not raised fundie, I was still pretty sheltered, and it's still harder to make decisions than I'd like. I imagine decision-making must be much more difficult for people whose primary education is in doing what their parents want, when they want it.)

[eowyn1217]

How did your now husband respond to this later when you guys were alone. Was he a little weirded out? I would think that would just be weird and in a way it kind of screams rude manners. I wouldn't dream of putting lotion on my feet with company over and certainly wouldn't ask my spouse to do it with people over.

he thought it was creepy, but essentially had to bow down to my dads every whim to be "allowed" to date me. thankfully, he is not that way himself...crazy and egotistical!

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I think there must be something not right from the start with the people who take to these methods. I mean, people snap and do terrible things, but how do you cold bloodedly and in smug self-righteousness hit a baby unless there's something really wrong with you? How doesn't that distress cry go right to your gut and to your lizard brain and trigger your protective instincts? She's absolutely dismissive about her baby being distraught over being hit. And, oh, that must be excruciating for the other little kids to witness knowing that if they say anything it's likely them next.

I wonder if it's a relief to these people when they find a system that organizes and validates their violent inclinations. Like slipping into a comfortable pair of shoes.

I always, ALWAYS wonder about this. Most humans - not only women or only mothers - just have an instinct that babies are to be protected, even if they don't necessarily like them. If these people believe that God made women to be mothers and gave them all these innate nurturing qualities, why do they have to suppress it to such a high degree? I remember Victoria Botkin on one of her audio things or lectures (don't remember which) saying that hitting "goes against a Mommy's heart". Well, yeah, no shit, and don't you believe that "Mommy's heart" is made by God to be a repository of special feminine qualities?

I think Michael Pearl definitely fits into the "comfortable shoe" category, btw.

[thoughtful]

We talk about fundies cherry-picking the Bible -- they also cherry-pick what they consider "natural."

I can remember, as a teenager, watching some schmuck on a talk show go on against "women's lib," since it was natural for women to do nothing but stay home and raise babies, and thinking "you are standing there in a polyester suit, in makeup, in front of a camera, under electric lights, in an air-conditioned building, having, no doubt, just used indoor plumbing, and having gotten there in a combination of planes and automobiles -- when you give up all of those and go live in a cave, I'll consider your point."

When they want to restrict the lives of women (and men, in some cases), deny rights to gay people, eschew medical help, create a facade of being simple country folk, or moan and groan about how things were better in Ye Olden Days, fundies and many other conservatives make a fuss about what they perceive as natural.

When they want to smack a baby, or make a buck at photography or web design or IT, or blog, or do a million other things that involve either denying their better instincts or using technology, concern for what is "natural" goes right out the window.