The Botkins on 'Brave' (Doug's Blog)

[mockingbird]

Geoff Botkin said, “I often get asked, ‘Can I never sit down and enjoy a movie?’ "

Huh. This is a question I have been asked on more than one occasion (by pearl clutchers), when I was talking about issues from a critical perspective. Because apparently, if you like something there will never be anything wrong with it and vice versa. What I don't think you are doing here, Geoff, is thinking critically. But I'm glad to join in your persecution regarding this question... as long as you wouldn't get mad at me if I criticized one of Dougie's film fest movies (while perhaps still enjoying it for the lolfactor) ;)

ETA: I did like Brave, but I experienced the same disappointment in terms of feeling misled about the plot. My mom got it for me for Christmas so when I rewatch it I think I will probably end up liking it better - was just confused for awhile.

[samurai_sarah]

On a side note the Botkins got me hooked on Twilight wth there over analysis and convoluted logic I wanted to see what was so bad. I have found no concrete facts that what I’m reading and watching is as bad as the Botkins have claimed, so thanks to them know I go to bed at night dreaming of my own Edward Cullen. :mrgreen: I will watch Brave know to see what's like, i don't like over anlysising movies kind of ruins the experience.

Edward Cullen SPARKLES in sunlight! No self-respecting vampire would sparkle! It's like being Darth Vader, but burping rainbows. No, I'm still not over that, can you tell? :mrgreen:

As to the bolded, analysing movies and other media can be a helpful thing to do in the social sciences. Popular representations inform and are informed by our social standards and realities. Questioning them can tell us an awful lot about underlying assumptions, and how to challenge them. But I agree with you that it has the side-effect of possibly ruining the experience. My SO will only go to the cinema with me, if I swear that I'm not going to provide a running commentary, and won't gnash my teeth too loudly. :oops:

[BlondeAgent007]

Did the Botkins and I watch the same movie?

Of course we are supposed to feel frustrated with her parents like she is. Merida was the narrator, the story was told through her eyes. If the movie was rewritten to be told by her mother, the story would look much different. We learn along with her that her parents are not trying to hurt her. She realizes her rebellion against all of the wishes of her parents is childish, and that there are certain things we must do when we grow up. It also lessens her case when she comes across something she REALLY objects to, like her marriage.

I found the change in the relationship between Merida and her mother really beautiful. I too think the trailers gave the impression that it was going to be an adventure flick. Trying to sell a mother/daughter princess movie to dads and boys is bound to be difficult. I did enjoy what they came up with. Also, the animation was amazing. I could watch Merida's hair all day!

[MamaJunebug]

Heh....I wasn't even aware of "Brave" until the Botkins stared squawking about it and FJ started snarking on the squawking.

It makes me wonder - is this the way they think they can remain relevant to their followers? Bashing Disney movies featuring women who are stronger and fpassive characters than Snow White or Aurora Whosis (the first Sleeping Beautiy)?

Meanwhile, cousin Katie Botkin - niece to the great and mighty Geoff - is blogging about life in the northern US in winter, and her niece's entrance into girlhood from babyhood, and her own tendency to be annoying now and again and again in her workplace: http://kbotkin.com/

Let's see: in a crisis situation where the only two blogs available to me are the Botkin family's and Katie's, which will I stretch out with? Well, for snark purposes, the family's, of course. So now let's say that the crisis is over, but I can only access one Botkin blog going forward. Do I want to feast on the snark fodder that is Geoff's family's effort at making sense of a fallen world? Or look into an interesting life lived by a person for whom the world is a fascination, not always benigh, but always remark-able?

Yeah, easy decision! But the Family Botkin chugs along. Apparently their fans - and I do not include us snarkers in that number - make it worth their while.

Scary. So I'm glad I don't have to choose, because it would bother me not to be able to know what fresh weirdness those daft dominionists were up to. Knowledge is power, forewarned is forearmed, and all that.

[debrand]

Did the Botkins and I watch the same movie?

Of course we are supposed to feel frustrated with her parents like she is. Merida was the narrator, the story was told through her eyes. If the movie was rewritten to be told by her mother, the story would look much different. We learn along with her that her parents are not trying to hurt her. She realizes her rebellion against all of the wishes of her parents is childish, and that there are certain things we must do when we grow up. It also lessens her case when she comes across something she REALLY objects to, like her marriage.

I found the change in the relationship between Merida and her mother really beautiful. I too think the trailers gave the impression that it was going to be an adventure flick. Trying to sell a mother/daughter princess movie to dads and boys is bound to be difficult. I did enjoy what they came up with. Also, the animation was amazing. I could watch Merida's hair all day!

Yes, I am reviving an old thread but I just saw this movie and loved it. It is a mother/daughter movie but the father isn't a bad or evil person. He and the mother appear to not only have an equal relationship but to also love one another. They didn't fight. (Well, not while the mom was human) Merida does not come across as perfect or entirely right. I also didn't see the witch as evil. The witch seems a bit scatter brained but the story wouldn't have progressed if she had remembered to tell Merida what the pastry actually did. She also seemed reluctant to help and did leave Merida a message explaining how to correct the situation.

There are many movies that counter the Botkin's worldview but something about these kid movies must really bother them. I don't see the Botkins writing a review of No Country For Old Men(sorry, I just saw that one too)

One thing I like about Merida is that she could do both traditional and nontraditional feminine activities. She used both sword fighting and sewing to save her mom. She wasn't so much turning her back on traditional princess activity as finding her own way to be a woman.

I also got the impression that the father did not care about the marriage either way. The mom seemed to be the one who wanted to hold onto tradition so the theme isn't women against men.

Merida seemed a normal teenager to me. I grew up in an abusive home. My mom got constant compliments on how well behaved her kids were. However, by the time she died, none of us talked with her. We obeyed because we were terrified and abused. Our personalities were pretty much flattened and it has taken me most of my life to stop trying to be invisible. It is normal for teenagers to rebel against authority.

Whining for time off from responsibility, rules, expectations, and having to be a role model: not all that brave.

• Resisting self-discipline, education, and training for the future in favor of outdoorsy hobbies: not all that brave.

• Defying parents (while freeloading off of them): not all that brave.

• Refusing to follow basic rules of manners: not all that brave.

• “Making things happen†in your life (instead of sitting around) by causing mayhem in others’: not all that brave.

• Fighting for your own way over anything else: not all that brave.

I've had my kids do all these things with a good dose of their dad's natural sarcasm thrown in for good measure. I don't want perfectly obedient children because I want them to stand up for themselves.

Confessing and actually repenting for her catastrophic mistake at the end: very brave.

• Realizing that her mother was a person too, who could be terribly hurt by her daughter’s selfishness: extremely brave, for a kids’ movie about parent-child conflict.

That is the point of the movie. Merida changes and grows up. You can't show real growth with a perfect person.

How are all these socially and domestically challenged heroines who swing swords but fumble with teapots broadening society’s expectations for what a girl can do? How is this a more empowering womanhood?

Um...she sewed a tapestry to save her mom. Did they miss that?

[copper]

Tearing down mainstream movies and media is VF bread and butter. "Disney is terrible, it will ruin your children!

BY THE WAY, WE MAKE SELL CHRISTIAN FILMS AND BOOKS AND STUFF, BUY THAT!"

Yes, Botkins, you are such unbiased critics, with nothing to gain...

[Janes Heir]

:lol: Don't get me started on national identities and appropriation, we'd be here all day. My thesis is just a more boring, non-Scotland version of that.

Is there any chance you're on tumblr? Or anywhere I can learn more about this? (I'm interested in the whole "national identities and appropriation" subject. But I"m especially interested in the fetishization of Scotland, as a person with Scottish roots who probably has imbibed some of that.) Thanks.

[longskirtlotsakids]

I really disliked it, but not because Merida goes for her own goals. I liked the fact that she was sporty, feisty, and all that jazz, and that she was pursuing her own goals.

What I didn't like was the way she went about pursuing them: choosing to manipulate and deceive, rather than fight her corner. Instead of using open methods she used 'magic' which then enabled the film to reproduce the stereotypical 'evil witch' figure, showing the post menopausal woman as a vector of evil, deceptive, and a sower of anarchy.

I didn't like the way that her mother's reasonable desire for her to be 'responsible' - that is to grow from girlhood to womanhood, was trivialised by a focus on dressing properly, being a 'lady' and getting married as a mark of adulthood: it was just as misogynistic and sexist in its way as the extremely saccharine femininity of Disney princesses.

The day the film industry produces a really non-sexist and non-stereotypical woman I will eat my bra.

Have you seen Miyazakis Studio Ghibli films? They have very strong female roles.

[Anise]

The Botkin sisters just do not like any movie in which a daughter asserts herself and grows up and discovers who she is.

They don't want to admit that they are the "before" in movies like Tangled and Brave and staying that way.

[MysteryHaggis]

Is there any chance you're on tumblr? Or anywhere I can learn more about this? (I'm interested in the whole "national identities and appropriation" subject. But I"m especially interested in the fetishization of Scotland, as a person with Scottish roots who probably has imbibed some of that.) Thanks.

I'm not on tumblr,no. Feel free to pm me though :)

[Mellanya]

I remember reading the Botkin's analysis before seeing the movie. Initially, I did not want to see the movie because it simply doesn't interest me that much, but I was forced to see it.

I actually ended up not liking it very much either. I do think Merida is not a good character, but not because she stands up for what she wants, but because of the stereotypical image it draws. While the Botkins tell us that sewing and cooking is the way to go, Merida tells us that all of those things make us silly little girls. Outdoor hobbies like hers make you strong - others don't. Being snotty and unfair (even harmful) to others makes you cool and strong, everything else doesn't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for supporting traditional roles. I'm simply a girly girl. I enjoy cooking. I enjoy making stuff. That's just who I am, but it doesn't make me a silly girl without agency, and that's what I feel Merida is telling the girl who simply happen to be like that.

I think I would have liked her much more if she was a more balanced character, not dismissing everything "girlish" as "silly", because honestly, that enforces traditional gender roles just as much as the botkins do.

But then again, maybe I'm too old for that type of movie. After all, kids may see it completely differently.

[BlondeAgent007]

I remember reading the Botkin's analysis before seeing the movie. Initially, I did not want to see the movie because it simply doesn't interest me that much, but I was forced to see it.

I actually ended up not liking it very much either. I do think Merida is not a good character, but not because she stands up for what she wants, but because of the stereotypical image it draws. While the Botkins tell us that sewing and cooking is the way to go, Merida tells us that all of those things make us silly little girls. Outdoor hobbies like hers make you strong - others don't. Being snotty and unfair (even harmful) to others makes you cool and strong, everything else doesn't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for supporting traditional roles. I'm simply a girly girl. I enjoy cooking. I enjoy making stuff. That's just who I am, but it doesn't make me a silly girl without agency, and that's what I feel Merida is telling the girl who simply happen to be like that.

I think I would have liked her much more if she was a more balanced character, not dismissing everything "girlish" as "silly", because honestly, that enforces traditional gender roles just as much as the botkins do.

But then again, maybe I'm too old for that type of movie. After all, kids may see it completely differently.

I'm a girly girl naturally too. I liked this movie because I didn't particularly love Merida at first either. Her character left her room to develop over the course of the movie. She reminded me of some gay people I know when they first came out of the closet - they acted as stereotypically gay as possible, overcome with their desire to express that side. Once they realized there was more than one right way to be gay, they tended to calm down a bit.

Of course, you are free to like or dislike any movie you choose :). That's just my take on it

[DefraudedByPlaid]

BTW, what's going on at Chateau Botkin? I haven't seen much recently other than Geoff and Isaac being on the "faculty" for the upcoming conference in July. The quiet makes me wonder if something weird is afoot behind the scenes or if they simply are hunkering down working on new family projects.