pregnant Catholics with health problems

[mirele]

I just don't understand why this woman would put her life in danger to have another child. Most people who say "I have 5 kids and my life is more important then indangering my life to have more"

Maybe she's bucking for sainthood. You know, like "St." Gianna Beretta Molla. Of course, "St." Gianna had to DIE of her pregnancy first. *rolls eyes*

And for you offended Catholics, get over it. Women and girls are not mere containers for embryos and fetuses. We have beating hearts as well. TYVM.

[France Nolan]

Even if she can't use the pill due to blood clots, condoms are still an option. If she really and truly believes that using condoms/birth control is against God's will, then maybe she should abstain from sex entirely. It just seems highly irresponsible to keep having sex, keep getting pregnant, and keep putting her life at risk. She doesn't have to live this way, she chooses to live this way.

[Minerva]

The progestin-only pill can be prescribed to people with a history of blood clots. Mirena is progestin-only as well, and it should in theory have even fewer side effects because it only releases progestin locally. The copper IUD is hormone-free. As are condoms, the sponge, diaphragms, spermicidal film, though those last three are very prone to user error. I know I wouldn't use them on their own if pregnancy meant risking my life. If I were her, I'd only feel safe using NFP if we used condoms as well. And I'd only feel safe relying on condoms if we had Plan B in the medicine cabinet, though Plan B is probably a no if you get blood clots.

[kb2]

Bleeding disorders that cause inadequate clotting also cause overzealous clotting, so you actually get to worry about both at the same time (although you almost always get to worry about clots more--you can compensate for a little bit of extra bleeding much better than you can compensate for a little bit of extra clotting). That plus !!!her history of blood clots!!! makes the usual combined estrogen-and-progesterone Pill a bad idea. It makes *pregnancy*, a state that increases your chances of developing a blood clot to *twice* that of taking the Pill (and is less easily reversible--stop taking the Pill and you've decreased your clotting risk down to baseline within a week, deliver a baby and you're high risk until six weeks later), a much more risky endeavor. There are still medicinal birth control options for people who have blood clotting/bleeding disorders, like the progesterone-only pill, the Depo shot, the progesterone-releasing IUD, and the copper IUD.

I've heard many stories of priests who told their parishioners that it was acceptable for them to take birth control or even get permanent tube-tying/vasectomies to protect their health and life after risky pregnancies, on a one on one basis.

[Boltingmadonna]

I just checked Jen's blog for an update. She is going to be released from the hospital, but she can't even walk without her heart rate going up into the 140s. Her hematologist told her it would be three months before she can expect to be back to normal, because of the number of clots in her lungs. So, clearly she's not in good shape.

Meanwhile--she asks for prayers for another blogger, Kelly at thecarelesscatholic.com, who is in the hospital with a threatened placental abruption. This woman has EIGHT kids already, and her last was delivered at 32 weeks with a complete placenta previa. Honestly . . . what is wrong with these people? Wouldn't you think that surviving placenta previa with baby #8 would be a hint to hang up the uterus already? I guess not--sanctification isn't complete until you can actually die as a martyr. I just . . . don't . . . get it.

I just had a thought: when I had my hysterectomy, I kept my ovaries. And I'll bet I had at least a few cycles before menopause arrived. So, does that mean that a potentially fertilized egg could have been washed away with nowhere to go? Does that mean that if a Catholic ever gets a hysterectomy, they have to remove the ovaries too, lest an egg fail to implant, thus--abortion?? This is the kind of thing the anxious folks on Catholic Answers could debate for hours if not weeks.

[Boltingmadonna]

sewingmom2 said:

I never had an unplanned pregnancy in 24 years of marriage (he died of an undiagnosed PE at age 51, post-surgery).

Sorry to hear that your husband died, sewingmom2. : ( I'm glad NFP worked for you, but if I'd had your health issues and tried that, I'd probably be dead. I haven't had additional education in NFP for quite awhile. Do they ever talk about the very real possibility that some women occasionally ovulate twice in one cycle? Two of my four pregnancies don't make any sense unless that happened to me. As far as I know, there is no way to protect yourself from that with NFP. Have they come up with something new that I don't know about? Also, I kind of doubt you'd be having sex "7 or 8 times" in a cycle if you had 23 day cycles, as I did for some years.

If an unplanned pregnancy could result in my death or serious debility, you can bet I'd double up on the birth control, no matter how reliable the method supposedly is. See, the great thing about barrier methods is they work pretty much the same for everyone, all the time. Individual perception and judgement don't affect your success, and even if your body throws you a curve, the method still works. That's not true of NFP, which is why I wouldn't bet my life on it.

[Jana814]

I just don't understand this woman she would be able to walk properly. I have 2 friends (siblings) they r very Catholic. the boy told me his mother wanted 6 kids. She had 3 kids in 3 years, & after the 3rd (only boy) the doctors told her to stop because each one was born a little earlier then the one before. Not sure if she used birth control or not but she did stop per doctors orders.

[pixydust]

sewingmom2 said:

Sorry to hear that your husband died, sewingmom2. : ( I'm glad NFP worked for you, but if I'd had your health issues and tried that, I'd probably be dead. I haven't had additional education in NFP for quite awhile. Do they ever talk about the very real possibility that some women occasionally ovulate twice in one cycle? Two of my four pregnancies don't make any sense unless that happened to me. As far as I know, there is no way to protect yourself from that with NFP. Have they come up with something new that I don't know about? Also, I kind of doubt you'd be having sex "7 or 8 times" in a cycle if you had 23 day cycles, as I did for some years.

If an unplanned pregnancy could result in my death or serious debility, you can bet I'd double up on the birth control, no matter how reliable the method supposedly is. See, the great thing about barrier methods is they work pretty much the same for everyone, all the time. Individual perception and judgement don't affect your success, and even if your body throws you a curve, the method still works. That's not true of NFP, which is why I wouldn't bet my life on it.

NFP can work really well for some people, I used it for 5 years and not a single "am I?" ever came about. It isn't for everyone (hell I'm back on the pill), but for some it works amazingly well. I learned a lot about my body while using it, and i think I'm pretty well equipped to notice if I'm going to be one of the 1% that has an accidental ovulation on the pill.

Oh, and as for ovulating 2x in a month, that did happen to me once while using NFP....and I was able to predict it, just like the first time I O'd that month. it's all about predicting with NFP.

[Boltingmadonna]

pixydust said:

Oh, and as for ovulating 2x in a month, that did happen to me once while using NFP....and I was able to predict it, just like the first time I O'd that month. it's all about predicting with NFP.

I think you're missing my point. Let's say you ovulated once--then, when the signs tell you that you're no longer fertile, you have sex. If you ovulate again while the sperm are still viable, you're going to get pregnant. It doesn't help to be able to know you're ovulating again, if you've already had sex.

I think fertility awareness is great, and I know NFP does work for some people. But you won't know if you're one of those people except in hindsight, after it's all over. What most people mean by "reliable" is a method they can have confidence in BEFORE using it, not after.

[wild little fox]

I'd amend that to:

If these people loved actual kids, they wouldn't want to leave 5 of them motherless.

And if he really loved his wife he would figure something else out.

[tinuviel]

I'm not sure how committed they are with NFP anyway. Jen has blogged about it sometimes, but the main thing that I remember was a sort of "bad at NFP and proud!" post that she did. NFP can work, but not if you half ass it, that's for sure...I hope they're more careful in the future, even if they don't move all the way toward doubling up/wrapping up. Yikes.

I check her blog occasionally, and I've noticed that she's sounded more tired this past year. Understandably, as a self-professed introvert with five young kids...

[sewingmom2]

RE: double ovulation--Yes, a double ovulation is possible. Typically, it occurs within 24 hours of the first ovulation. With Billings, I had to wait until the evening of the 4th day of consistent dry-up following peak mucous. A double ovulation, especially the rare one that is separated by more than 24 hours, would not have the typical peak mucous followed by total dry-up--there would be inconsistent signs that would preclude using the 4-day post-peak rule for intimacy. Iow, I'd still be waiting for the clear-cut peak/dry up pattern, wondering what was going on, and continuing to abstain. The hormones that would allow a 2nd ovulation would be messing with my mucous pattern!!!!!

[mirele]

RE: double ovulation--Yes, a double ovulation is possible. Typically, it occurs within 24 hours of the first ovulation. With Billings, I had to wait until the evening of the 4th day of consistent dry-up following peak mucous. A double ovulation, especially the rare one that is separated by more than 24 hours, would not have the typical peak mucous followed by total dry-up--there would be inconsistent signs that would preclude using the 4-day post-peak rule for intimacy. Iow, I'd still be waiting for the clear-cut peak/dry up pattern, wondering what was going on, and continuing to abstain. The hormones that would allow a 2nd ovulation would be messing with my mucous pattern!!!!!

I'm going to use your post as an example of how unnatural so-called "Natural Family Planning" is. Seriously. Women have to chart their temperatures, keep track of their mucus types and flow and who knows what all else is involved. This.Is.Not.Natural. It is a 20th century innovation designed in an attempt to keep Catholics on the straight and narrow when Pope Paul VI decided Humanae Vitae was the way to go. Of course, millions of Catholic women in American proceeded to ignore him, ditched "Vatican Roulette," kept on or started using birth control in droves and went on with their lives. Bishops are still grinding their teeth about the disobedience.

[pixydust]

pixydust said:

I think you're missing my point. Let's say you ovulated once--then, when the signs tell you that you're no longer fertile, you have sex. If you ovulate again while the sperm are still viable, you're going to get pregnant. It doesn't help to be able to know you're ovulating again, if you've already had sex.

I think fertility awareness is great, and I know NFP does work for some people. But you won't know if you're one of those people except in hindsight, after it's all over. What most people mean by "reliable" is a method they can have confidence in BEFORE using it, not after.

But the point of NFP is knowing that you are getting ready to ovulate, if you double ovulate it is obvious that something is "off" (i think when i did it was 3 days later....I never had an "all clear" sign between the 2 ovulations) and you continue to abstain (or in my hubbies and my case, do "other" stuff) until everything is all clear. Even if you ovulated, say, 2 weeks after the first there would still be signs that you are going to ovulate, so you abstain.

I'm not sure that I'm making myself clear...NFP is not for everyone, you have to be 100% diligent (I learned it doing the reverse, I was trying to get pregnant, so I learned all of the signs and how my body worked when I was trying for a baby....that is probably the best time to learn it IMO, there were no repercussions if I messed up one month) and I have no problems with other forms of BC (I'm on the pill now). However, NFP is a valid form of BC, and i would rather see fundie women using NFP than nothing at all.

[sewingmom2]

RE: what is natural or unnatural about NFP--I was able to space my babies by breastfeeding and cosleeping for the first 11 years of marriage. There's a book by Sheila Kippley titled "Breastfeeding and Natural Child Spacing." It explains how, for at least some people, eco-breastfeeding suppresses ovulation for many months. I usually got a period back about 18 months after delivery. The soonest I got pregnant was 23 months post-delivery, making my closest two 32 months apart. Used in conjunction with fertility awareness, eco-breastfeeding lets a couple be pretty natural, imo. The only down side was that b'feeding tended to cut my libido, for at least the first year,probably directly related to hormones. Can't have everything, I guess. :) I had go get serious about NFP after my 3rd round of cardiac issues related to pregnancy. Like many posters have pointed out, being responsible for little ones and facing medical issues with another pregnancy should make one opt for being healthy for the children one has. I didn't have the courage to "go there" again.

[wild little fox]

I agree that NFP is not for everyone. It takes a big commitment and a respectful partner.

One of the upsides is that you learn how your body works. How can knowledge be a wrong thing?

NFP works great for me and was recommended to me by my OB/GYN. I'm in my mid 40's (low fertility vecause if age), I have NEVER been pregnant, I don't want to do hormonal BC because of my mental state. I cannot have an IUD because I am allergic to nickel and other alloys that may be mixed with the copper ( they are NOT 100% copper!) All that and I only see my partner a few times a year. He has never fathered a child. LOL!

Oh, LOL! Because of NFP and subsequent research I found that the reason I've never been pregnant is the fact I ovulate a week before my mense, so if conception occurs I will spontaneously abort the pregnancy when I get my period.

I always believe that knowledge is power and knowing how my body works has been key in understanding my own fertility.

[Boltingmadonna]

I appreciate all the info about NFP from pixydust and sewingmom2. But I'm still not convinced this is a reliable form of birth control for most people. Scrolling back through Kelly at thecarelesscatholic's blog, I see that she was diligently using NFP at the time she got pregnant. She didn't intend to get pregnant, and had successfully used NFP for three years. But oops, guess what, she's pregnant now, and in danger of her life. I'm sure she would have said, like you two, that you just have to be careful, pay attention to all the signs, etc. etc. She thought she was doing that. But she's still pregnant.

The breast-feeding thing is another crock as far as I'm concerned. It works great--for those for whom it works. The rest of us, not so much. The longest I ever went before getting my period, post-partum, was six weeks. And don't tell me I wasn't "ecological" enough. I breastfed those voracious little critters every two hours day and night. But it wasn't enough to stop me from ovulating. If it works for you, that's great. But there are so many others for whom it does NOT work. Check out Catholic Answers Forum for endless angst over NFP Fails. And those are the people who WANT to do it right.

[Coconut Flan]

My view is that just like for some people breastfeeding works and for others it doesn't (I'm in the doesn't camp) so I don't like to hear about it being hailed as good BC either. NFP can work well for some and not well for others much the same way. We used a modification of NFP where we used a barrier method during the high potential days and went 10 years with one slip up. We decided to take a chance just once and well yes surprise!!

[singsingsing]

That's the thing about NFP - it's wonderful, IF it works for you. If it doesn't and you're determined to be an orthodox Catholic, you're basically screwed. I remember reading one Catholic blogger a while back who was practically in tears, begging people for any insight they might have. She was about to have her fourth baby and, for very good reasons, did not want to get pregnant again after that for a long time, if not ever. The problem was that she was very fertile, and NFP, no matter what method she used, just did not work in the months after she gave birth. She was faced with the only remaining option: to not have sex with her husband at all for several months (and remember, orthodox Catholic = no alternatives to PIV sex). It made my mind spin to think that her entire problem could be solved simply by using birth control. Honestly, I think one of the worst things the Catholic church has done has been to convince these people that birth control is a great evil.

[Turtle]

I'm going to use your post as an example of how unnatural so-called "Natural Family Planning" is. Seriously. Women have to chart their temperatures, keep track of their mucus types and flow and who knows what all else is involved. This.Is.Not.Natural. It is a 20th century innovation designed in an attempt to keep Catholics on the straight and narrow when Pope Paul VI decided Humanae Vitae was the way to go. Of course, millions of Catholic women in American proceeded to ignore him, ditched "Vatican Roulette," kept on or started using birth control in droves and went on with their lives. Bishops are still grinding their teeth about the disobedience.

Different types of NFP use temperature, mucus and cervical placement checks. Some use one, others use all three. I'm not sure what you mean by saying it isn't natural. not called "natural" because it comes naturally or anything. It uses the body's natural signs to determine fertility. I use NFP for other reasons, but I like it and it has worked well for me and some other women I know. I feel like I know my body better, and I am more conscious now of the effects that sleep, stress and diet have on my body.

And I don't think it was just American Catholic women who chose birth control. I think many Catholic women in their 30-50s were told by their priests that birth control was ok. Maybe the trend is shifting back, with younger priests now being more conservative, but I think the birth control rates among Catholic women are still about the same as the average American population.

[B5SnowDog]

That's the thing about NFP - it's wonderful, IF it works for you. If it doesn't and you're determined to be an orthodox Catholic, you're basically screwed. I remember reading one Catholic blogger a while back who was practically in tears, begging people for any insight they might have. She was about to have her fourth baby and, for very good reasons, did not want to get pregnant again after that for a long time, if not ever. The problem was that she was very fertile, and NFP, no matter what method she used, just did not work in the months after she gave birth. She was faced with the only remaining option: to not have sex with her husband at all for several months (and remember, orthodox Catholic = no alternatives to PIV sex). It made my mind spin to think that her entire problem could be solved simply by using birth control. Honestly, I think one of the worst things the Catholic church has done has been to convince these people that birth control is a great evil.

I agree. I've read of marriages breaking up due to the stress of religiously practicing NFP.

[Ruby Slippers]

NFP doesn't work well for people with irregular cycles, people on antibiotics or antihistamines or other meds that change their body chemistry, people with limited CM, people rightfully squeamish about inserting their own hands into their vaginas to check their cervixes, and people who might like to sleep in every so often instead of temping at the break of dawn on a day off. Plus, as usual, the burden is entirely on the woman in the relationship unless her partner is down with performing CM sampling and pelvic exams.

[Katiebug]

NFP doesn't work well for people with irregular cycles, people on antibiotics or antihistamines or other meds that change their body chemistry, people with limited CM, people rightfully squeamish about inserting their own hands into their vaginas to check their cervixes, and people who might like to sleep in every so often instead of temping at the break of dawn on a day off. Plus, as usual, the burden is entirely on the woman in the relationship unless her partner is down with performing CM sampling and pelvic exams.

While I agree with some of this, "rightfully squeamish" is a bit much. There should be absolutely no squeamishness involved when an adult is learning about her own body and how it functions. Isn't this part of why the second wave feminists were all about reading "Our Bodies, Ourselves" and looking at ladytown in a mirror? Some women are able to distinguish cervical mucus based on how it feels when they wipe with TP - I was never one of them, but checking CM is really no different than inserting an applicator-free tampon (which I started using at 12, well before I became sexually active). There are also ways to address irregular cycles - to be fair, it usually involves more abstinence (for NFP) or use of a backup method (for FAM).

When we used this method, it was fertility awareness, not NFP. We used condoms as backup when I could be fertile and there was absolutely no religious or moral motivation. I was tired of what combined hormonal contraceptives were doing to my body and my libido and wanted to take a break, and had several friends recommend that I read "Taking Charge of Your Fertility". No oopses, but then again if there was any question we used a condom too. As a bonus, years later when we did want to attain pregnancy, we successfully conceived on the first cycle both times - including my second/current pregnancy where I conceived with a short cycle and an unusually-early ovulation day. I was not actively temping or charting either time, but after learning how to chart I got to know my body's signs and we took advantage of that knowledge. Taking all religious motivation out of it, I think that fertility awareness is a great thing for interested women to learn about even if they don't use it for birth control purposes.

Where it can get nutty is when the Catholic Church dictates that NFP alone is the only moral way for couples to plan their families, even if there are serious financial, emotional, or physical health risks at play with a future pregnancy. Half of the batshit crazy posters at Catholic Answers say that NFP should only be used for "grave" reasons - i.e. what they think is a sufficiently serious reason. Otherwise it's all babies, all the time, and how awful someone would be to not want that! :roll: It doesn't matter if you've had four kids in 5 years and are utterly exhausted and in massive debt - God will provide! Throw in a Mother Theresa quote about children being like flowers, and you're all set. :evil:

We are not Catholic but live in a predominantly-Catholic area (many are nominally Catholic but only go to Mass a few times a year and for weddings and funerals). Most have only 2 kids or 3 at most. They use hormonal birth control or IUDs or the husband gets a vasectomy. They don't seem to think it's their church's place to tell them how to plan their families, which of course it isn't! I'm glad that our denomination (Lutheran) says nothing about how married couples should plan their families - we've never had a pastor try to say one thing regarding childbearing or birth control, even during our religious pre-marital counseling.

My mother had severe health complications in both pregnancies, and with her second she spent more than half of the pregnancy on strict bed rest. After a very high risk delivery the OB told my parents flat-out that another pregnancy would likely kill her and/or the baby before they even made it to delivery. I don't know how they accomplished it (none of my business, I don't want to know) but there were no pregnancies after my brother came along. They had wanted a larger family but it was more important for their two existing children to have a healthy and present mother. I suspect in many cases where Catholic couples are told something similar, many priests would even quietly tell the couple to take permanent/highly effective measures to preserve the mom's health and life.

[sewingmom2]

Just to clarify--I ended up using NFP for personal, not religious, reasons. I could not take the pill as it caused toxic hypertension (220/120) by week three. I also developed optic neuritis and lost some vision in one eye. The IUD was out because, with a leaking heart valve, it was considered a conduit for infection. I'm allergic to latex and also to spermicidal foams, etc. A non-latex diaphragm was an option, but without the spermicidal stuff. Believe me, when my firstborn was a year old, my gyn offered NFP--and I leaped at it.

I chose not to sterilize for religious/emotional/personal reasons, though. And NFP was working so well that I felt safe with it. Had it not worked well, I probably would have opted for sterilization after my third live birth.

I'm menopausal now, but I still cannot take HRT. I'm a DES daughter and that, coupled with the hypertension and reaction to BCP hormones, means I'm a no-go. So, I'm "naturally" turning into an aging hag. Ah, well, as friend once told me--before 40, I worried what it looked like. After 40, I only worry whether it works right!!!!

[dawbs]

To add to the NFP discussion...we've used it for both 'trying for kids' and 'trying to avoid (but it would be OK if we got PG)' and one of the things I became hyper aware of is that if you're 'trying to avoid', it SUCKS.

I'm sure it doesn't for all people but my sex drive is incredibly tied to my ovulation/hormones. If I have to avoid sex on the days when I"m fertile, basically the window fo time when I most want sex, it's always forbidden.

Hated.