CT School shooting

[pomology]

As much as I think there are valid reasons for wanting stricter gun control laws, the shooter took them from someone who had legally and rightfully obtained the guns.

That's the whole point of gun control. That no civilian should be able to legally obtain the kind of weaponry that the shooter used for any reason.

I don't disagree that American is sorely in need of better programs for mental health. But such programs would have only had a small chance of saving these children's lives. Better gun control would have had a large chance of doing so.

[Austin]

Part of gun control may be addressing access. So many people who have legally bought and registered guns have those firearms fall into the hands of others who, either by accident or deliberately, end up killing someone. I believe that anyone who allows their gun to fall into the hands of someone else who uses it to hurt or kill someone should be criminally liable.

For instance, if I, as a parent, have a refrigerator full of alcohol that one of my sons' friends gets into and becomes intoxicated and then leaves my home and hurts or kills someone by driving drunk, I am liable.

The mother of this perpetrator is dead, so she cannot be punished for making her firearms accessible to this perpetrator, but many times that is not the case and the gun owner stands around saying, "I just don't know how this happened", which makes me want to strangle them. It happened because they, as a gun owner, was not responsible with their killing machine.

[Arete]

I just cannot wrap my head around the fact that this mother had these kinds of weapons, an unstable son, and did not have these weapons secured (?) !

[AnnieC 305]

OK, I've been staying out of this because yesterday brought a lot back for me. But it's going on and on and now I have to weigh in.

I used to be a teacher. I taught in a school district in California that was ground zero in a major gang war. We never had a mass shooting like this one, thank goodness, but on more than on occasion we had gang members bring a roving confrontation through our school yard or some into our school armed to take revenge on someone's little brother. I also never had anyone die, thank goodness, but I did had two colleagues and two students shot.

Yes, to be perfectly honest, standing there in the dark with only a locked door between thirty children cowering under their desks and a gunman, I really wanted my shotgun.

I don't know about Connecticut but in my part of California we had shooter drills, more often than we had fire and earthquake drills, which says something. It was never wild and crazy in my room, my kids knew that when the shooter alarm went off (yes, we had one at one school) or when a shooter warning came over the intercom or when they heard gunfire they were supposed to get under the desks and away from the doors. (We used to pack the lowest cupboards on the outer walls with recycled phone books. They were tidier than sandbags and worked just as well.) So yes, I could have easily shot anyone who came into my room without hitting a child, and I'm no more than a week-end target shooter. But not with a handgun that a child could mistake for a toy, with something big and heavy that I couldn't conceal and didn't have to aim too finely. I was there to protect my kids, I had no need to hide my intent.

(This all happened before 9/11 and Iraq/Afghanistan, and I wasn't the only teacher in my district married to a Marine. We used to go to platoon family gatherings and give the guys a hard time for taking more fire than they had.)

The problem is that I actually had to think about that. The problem is that we had to have shooter drills and pack our cupboards. The problem is that we had to make our children wear bright green uniforms and then have a gang summit and get all the members to agree to not shoot anyone in green because they were just little kids walking to and from school. Not that it worked all that well but we tried.

(And then, since we didn't allow gang colors at school, one mother dyed her kids hair bright red. He was six. Ho jebus some days it was insane.)

Do we have to regulate guns in this country? Yes, I agree that we do. When I bought my shotgun and the husband bought his handguns we each had to go through a background check and wait 15 days, and that wasn't a problem for us. And we see no need for the extended clips that always seem to be used in this sort of thing, you don't need them for target shooting or for hunting and you certainly don't need them for home defense.

But in my last year of teaching we had one shop in town that sold guns and 22 murders by gun and not one, not one of those were sold by that shop, or any other shop. Shutting down all legal gun sales would not have made me or my kids one whit safer.

(One day the local SWAT team raided a meth lab across from our school. I stood at the window outside of my room with a couple of other teachers, drinking coffee and watching the show after school. The cops left their vehicles open so they could come out and get more gear quickly if needed. The moment they all went inside the building a small flock of neighborhood teens ran down the street and cleaned out the cars, they probably got away with at least thirty weapons. That we stood there laughing probably explains why we all retired well before 40.)

What we need to do is address the causes of violence in our country, be it gang violence or mental health. Mother Jones has analyzed shootings in the past here:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... otings-map

And the majority of them were committed by people who had mental health problems that were known before the shooting occurred. If we had a system of universal health care, including screening, in place then maybe, just maybe, they would have gotten help long before it came to this.

I keep hearing over and over again that we can't have Universal Health Care in the US because....well, to me it sounds like we can't have it because God. Just like children don't have rights because God and disabled children can't have rights because God and we can't help those poor brown children and their families because God. No, I don't understand it but that's what I keep hearing. So maybe fucknuts like Huckabee are right, maybe this will keep happening because God wants it because we're not giving him enough attention. Granted we used to call that blackmail where I come from but most of this country seems willing to let it go and let bad things keep happening to children so we'll give God attention so I can only assume they're willing to pay.

But as long as we keep listening to them and paying the blackmail as a nation then as a former teacher who's been there yes, I wanted a gun in my classroom. Because clearly no one was protecting those babies but me and now other teachers and they ought to have at least one tool to do the job.

[redhotmess]

I really think ALL children and teens should be screened for mental illness.

I agree with this but I can't see it happening.

[AnnieC 305]

I forgot to add the story about the time our crossing guard was shot in a drive-by and lost a lung. She actually came back (brave woman) at which point the PTA held a few fundraisers and bought her body armor.

Also, one time we held a drive to get kids to turn in toy guns in exchange for healthier toys like soccer balls and jump ropes. We got five boxes of toy guns and four real ones. Loaded. Scared the living crap out of everyone that these kids had just carried them in....

Good times.

[OkToBeTakei]

You know it was not an undiagnosed personality disorder that killed all those children. That was two handguns and a rifle.

[sapphireblue]

An hour ago Shirley Phelps Roper tweeted that WBC would picket Sandy Hook school to 'sing praise to God for the glory of his work in executing justice.'

WTH?!?! :shock: They think this is a good thing?! :x

Heaven help those families and the Newtown community. :cry: WBC will get what is coming to them someday. :evil:

[JesusFightClub]

I believe that some of these people get their ideas about guns from the movies and TV. They honestly believe that life is like a television show where the good guys pull out a gun, make the perfect shot and save the day. Their view of life is dangerously uncomplicated by reality.

Yes this.

I have no competence with a pistol. I have some competence with a rifle, but I need to line up the shot. Shotgun, tell me how well that works out for ya in a crowded classroom. Semi auto, I'm thinking :shock:

Guns are actually pure fucking difficult. It's not easy anywhere ever. The bad guy has the advantage, sadly that is how it is.

[Austin]

Has anyone heard what connection Nancy Lanza (the perp's mother) had to Sandy Hook? Originally the press was saying she was a teacher there, but it turns out she wasn't, and she had no elementary aged children. I saw the Sandy Hook library clerk denying that she even knew her.

[Turtle]

Has anyone heard what connection Nancy Lanza (the perp's mother) had to Sandy Hook? Originally the press was saying she was a teacher there, but it turns out she wasn't, and she had no elementary aged children. I saw the Sandy Hook library clerk denying that she even knew her.

Last article I read said that one mom was quoted at thinking she was maybe a substitute. It's such a shame that so many news outlets are reporting information they haven't verified.

[Swamptribe]

No, the problem in the US is that way to many people have the idea that having a gun makes you safer. As if a gun, and gun ownership is something magical. Hell, I've heard that Canadians own just as many guns per capita as we do in the US. Yet, their rate of gun violence is much lower than ours.

It's not the guns per say, but the idea that gun ownership is some kind of divine right and that having a gun makes you safer. That owning and flashing a gun makes you some kind of superman. That you can solve many of your problems with a gun (and yes, I have heard people rant on that very subject. Sold guns for three years) Some of the people scared the shit out of me.

[veron1que]

You know it was not an undiagnosed personality disorder that killed all those children. That was two handguns and a rifle.

I have to disagree, it was a man who killed those children.

I'm not saying that we don't need gun control reform in this country, because we do. But to insinuate that had he not had access to guns he would have never harmed anyone, is far more idealistic than I could ever be.

[GolightlyGrrl]

I can't believe how devastated I am about this horrible tragedy. I go from desperate tears to absolute rage. It's at this time I'm glad I don't have children because how would I explain what happened at Sandy Hook? I can't explain it to myself.

And because we need something to lift our spirits I thought I'd share this with my lovely Jingerites:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/moments- ... ity-this-y

[Sprocket]

Last article I read said that one mom was quoted at thinking she was maybe a substitute. It's such a shame that so many news outlets are reporting information they haven't verified.

This is exactly what is wrong with 24 hour news networks. They have to break out the "breaking news" scroll every hour or so (when things like this happen) to keep viewers. And their "breaking news" is 3rd or 4th hand information -- and they don't blink before they report it as fact. Case in point, the perp's brother's fb page was shared hundreds of times as the shooter because the media put the name out there without it being verified. It didn't matter that there were numerous Ryan Lanza's. I read somewhere (maybe here) that some poor woman who had a son at some academy had press descend on her home because her son's name happened to be Ryan Lanza. Shit like this gets innocent people killed. (The media announcing the name of the alleged suspect of Tucpac's murder was gunned down, as an example.)

[Sprocket]

I have to disagree, it was a man who killed those children.

I'm not saying that we don't need gun control reform in this country, because we do. But to insinuate that had he not had access to guns he would have never harmed anyone, is far more idealistic than I could ever be.

Well, had he gone into that school with a knife, I believe there would be fewer fatalities.

[OkToBeTakei]

I have to disagree, it was a man who killed those children.

I'm not saying that we don't need gun control reform in this country, because we do. But to insinuate that had he not had access to guns he would have never harmed anyone, is far more idealistic than I could ever be.

It was a man with two handguns and a rifle.

If he did not have easy access to them, we would not be having this discussion. That is not idealistic that is a fact.

[emmiedahl]

Well, had he gone into that school with a knife, I believe there would be fewer fatalities.

I agree. There was a school stabbing on the same day in China and last I heard, everyone had survived.

Also, American schools are pretty high security now. Probably more so than China. This CT school sounds like it is set up similar to my kids' elementary school in that he had to pass an office before getting to the classroom. The people at the office could have stopped a man with a knife, and if not there would have been a very public and visible scuffle during which the other office people could have told teachers over the announcement system to lock down the classrooms.

I don't think removing guns from US homes is a politically viable option and I don't think we should even go there right now. But can we all discuss how so many unstable people are getting legal guns to commit these crimes? And how we can cut back on that? It is a damn shame that dangerous people have legal access to very powerful killing machines. Why are we worried about North Korea getting nukes? Why would the war on Iraq have been okay if we had found WMDs? Because psychopaths should not have the capability to kill large numbers of people at once, right? So why are we fine with that situation occurring in every damn town in the US? Those poor children deserve more than what we gave them. They deserved a safe kindergarten class.

It is outrageous that my children's teachers are actively trained in how to handle an event like this, and that our schools have more lockdown drills than fire drills. My children HAVE had to be locked down over a person with a gun on their campus, in the suburban Pacific Northwest. In a school district that is so safe and good that a house doubles in value by virtue of being inside the district lines. This is not okay. The answer might be to lock down the schools more until we can stem the tide of violence, but there are still play-yards, bus stops, field trips.

I am fine with discussing mental health access, but some of the things wrong with mass shooters are not things that can be easily identified and treated. I don't want to turn this into a slam against the many people struggling with the non-dangerous mental illnesses that make up most of the diagnoses in the US, either. Mentally ill people are not as a group dangerous to society, but some mentally ill people should not have weapons. And there we are, back to the access to weapons. So that is why I am focused more on gun control.

[Sprocket]

I agree. There was a school stabbing on the same day in China and last I heard, everyone had survived.

Also, American schools are pretty high security now. Probably more so than China. This CT school sounds like it is set up similar to my kids' elementary school in that he had to pass an office before getting to the classroom. The people at the office could have stopped a man with a knife, and if not there would have been a very public and visible scuffle during which the other office people could have told teachers over the announcement system to lock down the classrooms.

I don't think removing guns from US homes is a politically viable option and I don't think we should even go there right now. But can we all discuss how so many unstable people are getting legal guns to commit these crimes? And how we can cut back on that? It is a damn shame that dangerous people have legal access to very powerful killing machines. Why are we worried about North Korea getting nukes? Why would the war on Iraq have been okay if we had found WMDs? Because psychopaths should not have the capability to kill large numbers of people at once, right? So why are we fine with that situation occurring in every damn town in the US? Those poor children deserve more than what we gave them. They deserved a safe kindergarten class.

It is outrageous that my children's teachers are actively trained in how to handle an event like this, and that our schools have more lockdown drills than fire drills. My children HAVE had to be locked down over a person with a gun on their campus, in the suburban Pacific Northwest. In a school district that is so safe and good that a house doubles in value by virtue of being inside the district lines. This is not okay. The answer might be to lock down the schools more until we can stem the tide of violence, but there are still play-yards, bus stops, field trips.

I am fine with discussing mental health access, but some of the things wrong with mass shooters are not things that can be easily identified and treated. I don't want to turn this into a slam against the many people struggling with the non-dangerous mental illnesses that make up most of the diagnoses in the US, either. Mentally ill people are not as a group dangerous to society, but some mentally ill people should not have weapons. And there we are, back to the access to weapons. So that is why I am focused more on gun control.

*hump hump* Oh excuse me, was that your leg?

[freejoytoo]

It was a man with two handguns and a rifle.

If he did not have easy access to them, we would not be having this discussion. That is not idealistic that is a fact.

QFT.

[Witsec5]

It's been bothering me since I heard about it...the fact that the assassin had been described as having Asperger Disorder along with a personality disorder. I've seen it in my job. Too many people are given the Aspie label without a lot of study. That's part of the reason why the definition of autism has been tightened along in the new revision of the DSM. It very well could be that the lack of empathy as well as the high level of emotional disconnect that this man exhibited early on was not autism. But it is easier for a parent to hear that their child has Asperger's rather than hearing that the child is a budding sociopath and/or has a serious mental illness.

Back to the on-topic discussion. I for one think that this is the right time to have a conversation about gun control.

[BoomerLynn]

I cannot stop thinking about this. Those poor babies, and their poor families. I felt sick to my stomach when I went to bed last night, and I felt sick when I woke up this morning. I look at my school-age sons and my daughter that will be starting kindergarten next year and my heart just hurts for the victims. And then I got on facebook and went from sad to angry. I have seen at least 2 people share a pic that states:

Dear God, why do bad things happen in schools? Signed, a concerned student

followed by

Dear Student, I am not allowed in schools, God.

It is such a horrible and disrespectful thing to say! I really hate people sometimes. I really hope none of the victims families have to hear or see this bullshit.

[Austin]

I cannot stop thinking about this. Those poor babies, and their poor families. I felt sick to my stomach when I went to bed last night, and I felt sick when I woke up this morning. I look at my school-age sons and my daughter that will be starting kindergarten next year and my heart just hurts for the victims. And then I got on facebook and went from sad to angry. I have seen at least 2 people share a pic that states:

followed by

It is such a horrible and disrespectful thing to say! I really hate people sometimes. I really hope none of the victims families have to hear or see this bullshit.

I'm arguing on a similar fb topic right now:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

[Austin]

Uh-oh, Emmiedahl and I are about to push poor Judy and her friends over the edge.

[pomology]

You guys are awesome. I would join in, but that thread is moving far too quickly for me to keep up with.

Also, wtf, is with the guy who said this: "Very much the problem! 1.7% of the population is atheist yet they dictate the law from a liberal leaning Supreme Court!"

Dude, the Supreme Court is a group of six Catholics and three Jews. How the fuck are atheists dictating from the Supreme Court?