CT School shooting

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Yes, I could almost give a pass to that. Not quite, but almost. On the other hand, "but they're lucky to be with God" is not even remotely the same as "Getting murdered in your first grade classroom? BEST CHRISTMAS PRESENT EVAR!"

Granted. That takes whatever possibly maybe hm, possibly I can see some grain of truth in it, and then... amps it up to ELEVENTY!!!!1!! and runs right off the cliff with it. Not gonna deny that at all, definitely not...

[nonymouse]

Hane- have you heard from your colleague? I've been thinking about his family...

[Convicted Blossom]

I just happened across this on my Facebook feed http://www.facebook.com/170Million

The 170 million refers to Americans for Public Broadcasting and the page has strategies for talking to kids about the news and disasters.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=447203981994488&set=pb.150720154976207.-2207520000.1355630661&type=3&theater

[Black Aliss]

It really is the patriarchy.

As heartwarming as it is to think that all these friendly, smiling faces at my children's schools would die to protect them, they should not have to. Because psychopaths should not have assault rifles. This kind of heroism should be unnecessary. These are teachers, not bodyguards.

This. For some reason the names and ages of the teachers hit me with an even harder gut punch. Those young women were my daughter's age.

I was sharing my patriarchy blame with another friend today and she pointed me to this article that totally nails it. http://www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-p ... -white-men

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming white men, I'm blaming the culture that leads white men to expect that the world is their oyster.

[Minerva]

Where I live, there are strict laws about gun storage to prevent theft. You have to keep them locked up, basically. So, no, the fact that most crimes are committed with guns stolen from legal owners does not negate the need to discuss gun control.

About whether now is the time to talk politics, gun control is closely linked to this tragedy. It's appropriate to discuss it, and I would frankly find it inappropriate to talk about the shooting as if it were a random tragedy whose causes should not be examined and whose prevention in the future should not be discussed. Things that are not even remotely linked to this tragedy include but are not limited to prayer in school, abortion, same sex marriage, Muslims, working mothers, Marilyn Manson, Obama, environmentalists, the Mayan calendar, the release of The Hobbit, and the NHL lockout. It takes a good deal of paranoia and/or belief in magic to think any of these are related to the shooting, and it is therefore not reasonable or appropriate to be blaming it on them.

I am fine with discussing mental health access, but some of the things wrong with mass shooters are not things that can be easily identified and treated. I don't want to turn this into a slam against the many people struggling with the non-dangerous mental illnesses that make up most of the diagnoses in the US, either. Mentally ill people are not as a group dangerous to society, but some mentally ill people should not have weapons.

Well said. There's a stereotype according to which people with mental illness are dangerous. This is far from true in the vast majority of cases, and I wish the discussions following tragedies like this took it into account more often. Access to mental health services is super necessary, but almost entirely for reasons other than preventing mass murders.

[JesusFightClub]

Minerva, you put it brilliantly.

I would say, I like guns (sorry) but that doesn't stop me being in favour of their controlled usage. Taking a gun into a primary school? You're a fucking idiot, whether you are teacher or parent or just a gunman, nothing about this will end well, will it.

Taking a gun into a church, what the hell happens in your church that you need to bring a gun? I've been in church loads of times (every day in my younger years) and at no time was a gun necessary. There were some sermons that bored the living tits off you, but I think everyone could deal with that without semiauto fire. ;)

Taking a gun into a shopping centre (shopping mall for Americans) WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN. No fucking clue why anyone would do this. I've spoken before about targeting and the ease thereof (it is about as easy as, well, fuck it, a thing which is not at all easy). You are going to hurt or kill bystanders if you open fire. That's happening, sorry.

We conclude from this "A gun has its place. It is not constantly on my person unless we're in a revolutionary situation."

[BravaAmica]

Minerva, you put it brilliantly.

I would say, I like guns (sorry) but that doesn't stop me being in favour of their controlled usage. Taking a gun into a primary school? You're a fucking idiot, whether you are teacher or parent or just a gunman, nothing about this will end well, will it.

Taking a gun into a church, what the hell happens in your church that you need to bring a gun? I've been in church loads of times (every day in my younger years) and at no time was a gun necessary. There were some sermons that bored the living tits off you, but I think everyone could deal with that without semiauto fire. ;)

Taking a gun into a shopping centre (shopping mall for Americans) WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN. No fucking clue why anyone would do this. I've spoken before about targeting and the ease thereof (it is about as easy as, well, fuck it, a thing which is not at all easy). You are going to hurt or kill bystanders if you open fire. That's happening, sorry.

We conclude from this "A gun has its place. It is not constantly on my person unless we're in a revolutionary situation."

QFT

[formergothardite]

I don't understand the "well God isn't allowed in school". What sort of weak ass god are they worshipping? Our schools here open with a moment of silence so children can pray/think positive thoughts so what about the kids who started their day in that class praying to God? Are public schools more powerful than God so just being inside their walls block prayers from going up to him? When they say that, they are admitting they worship a very, very weak God.

[Mama Mia]

Unfortunately, judging by the increasingly paranoid rantings of various people on facebook, there seem to be a large number of right-wingers in the U.S. who think they ARE in a revolutionary situation, and they better keep their guns with them at all times, since the evil government is going to come collect them at any moment. :evil: They also seem to think they could have jumped in their ninja style and taken down the school shooter and saved some lives, cause they are all "great shots" ... never mind that there shooting practice was, I hope, confined to stationary targets on a range ! :roll: Idiots.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I don't understand the "well God isn't allowed in school". What sort of weak ass god are they worshipping? Our schools here open with a moment of silence so children can pray/think positive thoughts so what about the kids who started their day in that class praying to God? Are public schools more powerful than God so just being inside their walls block prayers from going up to him? When they say that, they are admitting they worship a very, very weak God.

FWIW the argument usually goes (at least in my local "letters to the editor" section) like this - "God is officially out of the schools" means that students are not taught about religion in school, they are not told about the ten commandments as normative religion, and instead are taught (ZOMG!!!) evolution, so the students come to think that they are descended from monkeys, that they are no different from the animals, and that there is no morality, and therefore the students become savages who don't have any consideration for human life.

Needless to say, the writers of those letters make mention of how they are homeschooling THEIR precious children.

But the point being, it's not so much that God isn't physically present in the schools and so can't prevent a gun incident, but that the ruined fallen students will make gun incidents because the students have no morality, because they are not instructed in Christianity in school.

...which from my heathen POV is all 100% purest grade bullshit, but that's the argument.

[emmiedahl]

FWIW the argument usually goes (at least in my local "letters to the editor" section) like this - "God is officially out of the schools" means that students are not taught about religion in school, they are not told about the ten commandments as normative religion, and instead are taught (ZOMG!!!) evolution, so the students come to think that they are descended from monkeys, that they are no different from the animals, and that there is no morality, and therefore the students become savages who don't have any consideration for human life.

Needless to say, the writers of those letters make mention of how they are homeschooling THEIR precious children.

But the point being, it's not so much that God isn't physically present in the schools and so can't prevent a gun incident, but that the ruined fallen students will make gun incidents because the students have no morality, because they are not instructed in Christianity in school.

...which from my heathen POV is all 100% purest grade bullshit, but that's the argument.

This was not a student at that school. And I certainly hope they are not saying the bolded about a bunch of tiny first graders.

They are only saying this because they do not want to deal with the obvious: that they need to choose between completely uncontrolled access to assault weapons and the safety of children. Because they will choose the first but feel really shitty about it. Better to force us all to worship their God, and when the violence continues to tell us we're not doing it right.

Times like these are hard for religious people. I go back and forth in the amount of faith I feel, but the last two days have been hard. Because I have a hard time believing that a God exists who did not stop this. That is another thing they don't want to deal with. Why? Whywhywhy? So they insist it is just, that these children were brutally slaughtered because we told God not to protect them. And that is a shitty answer, I assure you that a lot of prayers were said in that school on that day.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

But that gunman went to a modern American secular public school, and was taught about evolution from evil secular humanists.

So for the people who make that "God is not in the schools and so the new generations are growing up evil" it works for them. Doesn't have to be the same school at all (although apparently the gunman did go to that elementary school, back in the day? Not that it matters...)

Obviously I don't buy their argument.

People don't like to admit that they don't have 100% control over anything, not their own lives and not their childrens' lives either, that I will definitely agree with. That's why you have the "if only the victims did X Y and Z they could have been safe" combined with "but if it were ME I'd be okay because I do X Y and Z" when any disaster of any sort whatsoever happens.

Life is random. It's scary, but it's the truth.

[jenny_islander]

I think this needs a signal boost:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2 ... eality.php

tl;dr: A long-time gun owner talks about the differences between the U.S. gun culture he grew up in and the one today. Basically, back then: nearly all firearms were hunting weapons, hobby talk was about tweaking ammo to get the bullet to the target, activities were lots of target practice and some hunting, and kids learned from their parents; now (since about the early '90s): military-type spray-the-crowd weapons extremely common, hobby talk is about making the weapons easier and easier to fire, activities are mostly talk about "tactics," and people take up the hobby as adults. This agrees with my experience. I left high school in the late '80s when kids brought their firearms to school and the only concerns adults had were whether they were making sure the rifles were unloaded and their vehicles were securely locked. Gun racks in the rear windows of pickup trucks were a common sight. When I left college in the late '90s, I vaguely noticed that there were sure a lot more jerks spraying trees with bullets until they fell over at the local impromptu target ranges (found at every roadside pullout north of town, where there are no houses) and a lot more macho talk about what guns could do to people wherever young guys gathered.

[mystikchick17]

Oh, I've got a doozy of a fundie response to the shootings. It's 2:40 am and I can't sleep and this post is pissing me off, so why not post it here? It's from No Greater Joy Mom/Adèye, who I read because of her orphan advocacy and usually I just screen out the fundie-speak but this is so far beyond the bounds of any logical reasoning that I don't even know what to say other than to sputter in anger:

"We teach our children that there is no God, that morality is tractable and reducible. So what do you expect? We teach our children that there are no losers, that everyone wins. So when life teaches them failure they can't handle it. So what do you expect? We teach our children that losing touch with reality is "recreational". So when they do drugs, it's OK. So what do you expect? We teach our children that you don't have to earn respect, it's automatic. Then they get frustrated when they don't get respected. So what do you expect? We teach our children that it's OK to kill babies in the womb. Then shouldn't it be OK to kill children in the school? So what do you expect? We teach our children that it's wrong to pray on the football field, on the basketball court on the baseball diamond. So they learn to prey on each other. So what do you expect? We teach our children that the truth can be offensive. So they speak lies and pretend. So what do you expect? We teach our children that reverence to things in antiquity is passe, so history is left to obscurity. So what do you expect? We give our children television where every form of deprivation is acceptable. So they grow up depraved. So what do you expect? Sadly, we can expect more Newtowns in the near future. We are reaping what we have sown. Children learn whether we want them to or not. Don't blame the guns, blame our teachings." Shared by Doug Billings.

Yes, of course. That MUST be it.

ETA: Hane, I heard that one of the children killed was a twin - I'm hoping against hope here that there was more than one set of twins, but I have an awful feeling you're about to become the second person I "know" virtually to know someone who lost a loved one on Friday. Have you heard anything from your colleague?

[roddma]

It is horiffic no matter if the vicitms or 5, 25 or 95. They are all someone's children and can be someone's parents, sibling, aunt, uncle, grandparents.My heart goes out to all impacted by this.

[emmiedahl]

Oh, I've got a doozy of a fundie response to the shootings. It's 2:40 am and I can't sleep and this post is pissing me off, so why not post it here? It's from No Greater Joy Mom/Adèye, who I read because of her orphan advocacy and usually I just screen out the fundie-speak but this is so far beyond the bounds of any logical reasoning that I don't even know what to say other than to sputter in anger:

Yes, of course. That MUST be it.

ETA: Hane, I heard that one of the children killed was a twin - I'm hoping against hope here that there was more than one set of twins, but I have an awful feeling you're about to become the second person I "know" virtually to know someone who lost a loved one on Friday. Have you heard anything from your colleague?

What a bitch.

Deprivation=/=depravity ffs.

I have taught my children few of those things. And even if I did, why should they be murdered? Where is this omnipotent Christian God when babies are shot down in their schools? Fuck this shit. This man killed them because he was a psychopath with a gun. I don't know if psychopath can be cured, but we sure as fuck can work on that gun part.

I cannot look at these children's names and not see my children, my children's classmates. I am getting so enraged at the judgment from the Christian right, like these babies were left to die as a statement to society from Terrorist God. Whether God exists or not, we have the tools to make sure this never happens again. That is the only justice possible here, to make sure no other child is killed senselessly in their classroom. I am not going to sit around waiting for God to decide he loves me. Not when I can get shit done on my own.

Please write your representatives and tell them to protect our children by any means necessary.

[Aisling]

It's hard to choose, but so far I think this may be the worst of the ones I've seen today:

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

I have to share my oxygen with people like that?

[Hane]

If the list of victims is accurate, my colleague's precious stepkids escaped physical harm. I remember visiting her office to congratulate her on her engagement, and seeing a pic of an adorable little brother and sister she'd proudly posted on her desk.

First stop today after church: Visiting my brother-in-law John, the social worker who was put in charge of distributing death certificates to the grieving parents, and giving him a big hug.

[Peas n carrots]

This was not a student at that school. And I certainly hope they are not saying the bolded about a bunch of tiny first graders.

They are only saying this because they do not want to deal with the obvious: that they need to choose between completely uncontrolled access to assault weapons and the safety of children. Because they will choose the first but feel really shitty about it. Better to force us all to worship their God, and when the violence continues to tell us we're not doing it right.

Times like these are hard for religious people. I go back and forth in the amount of faith I feel, but the last two days have been hard. Because I have a hard time believing that a God exists who did not stop this. That is another thing they don't want to deal with. Why? Whywhywhy? So they insist it is just, that these children were brutally slaughtered because we told God not to protect them. And that is a shitty answer, I assure you that a lot of prayers were said in that school on that day.

QFT. Not out of their cold dead hands mind out....

[Hane]

A Facebook message just posted by my brother-in-law, the social worker who was on site at Sandy Hook the day of the tragedy:

At such a horrendous time for our neighbors in Newtown; please Governor Malloy pay attention to our fight to heal our mentally ill population. How many more innocent people will be sacrificed because of inadequate treatment for those suffering from this insidious disease? I will continue to fight for, love, respect, and most of all FORGIVE the victims suffering from this affliction. The pain caus

ed by poorly treated psychosis (BUDGET CUTS) will continue unless you help. Every day I witness the damage done to and by the people I am honored to serve. Please God, assist our leaders to STOP THE HELL our world has made! Folks, light a candle, pray extra hard (St. Dymphyna is the patron saint of the mentally ill) and give all you can to our friends in Newtown. Please break this cycle of despair and evil! God, I love you; please show us the way!

[JesusFightClub]

Unfortunately, judging by the increasingly paranoid rantings of various people on facebook, there seem to be a large number of right-wingers in the U.S. who think they ARE in a revolutionary situation, and they better keep their guns with them at all times, since the evil government is going to come collect them at any moment. :evil: They also seem to think they could have jumped in their ninja style and taken down the school shooter and saved some lives, cause they are all "great shots" ... never mind that there shooting practice was, I hope, confined to stationary targets on a range ! :roll: Idiots.

Totally this.There is nothing which could be better expressed.

It irritates the shit out of me. If you aren't sure, aimed and loaded, put down the fucking gun. See the situation? You're going to make it worse.

The teachers in the situation sound fantastic and loving, I think sometimes horrible shit JUST HAPPENS.

[mirele]

I'm reposting this as a PSA to not be taken in by urban legends or scams.

(Scott is a friend of mine and he would not mind. He'd think it's common sense, actually.)

[Sprocket]

This was not a student at that school. And I certainly hope they are not saying the bolded about a bunch of tiny first graders.

They are only saying this because they do not want to deal with the obvious: that they need to choose between completely uncontrolled access to assault weapons and the safety of children. Because they will choose the first but feel really shitty about it. Better to force us all to worship their God, and when the violence continues to tell us we're not doing it right.

Times like these are hard for religious people. I go back and forth in the amount of faith I feel, but the last two days have been hard. Because I have a hard time believing that a God exists who did not stop this. That is another thing they don't want to deal with. Why? Whywhywhy? So they insist it is just, that these children were brutally slaughtered because we told God not to protect them. And that is a shitty answer, I assure you that a lot of prayers were said in that school on that day.

This is where their logic fails. From what I've seen on the news, it seems like a rather religious community. The father of little Emilie seemed to be leaning on his faith during this horrible time in his family. I highly doubt that people who pray don't pray for the safety of their children -- and because teacher led prayer is not permitted, the prayers of the parents/students are null and void once they cross the threshold of the school building. Maybe not, but I get lost in fundie logic most days because it makes my head hurt.

[jenny_islander]

I don't think the argument that officially mandated school prayer would have stopped the murders has anything to do with logic or even with religion. I think it works like this: "Our tribe is all for school prayer. Something this horrible happening to our tribe is unthinkable. Therefore those people can't possibly have been from our tribe. Let's make sure that everybody knows this. Then we'll be safe!"

[freejoytoo]

There's a mass shooting and people think the solution is MORE guns? People are crazy. No citizen has a right or need to a lethal weapon.

Edited for clarity