Crossdressing the last "acceptable" prejudice? - a rant

[moodygirl86]

Don't believe this has been covered before, but apologies in advance for length.

I visited my mum recently. I've posted before that I get on well with my family, for the most part, but that weekend she told us something that kind of bothered me - not in and of itself, but the way people were describing the situation.

Mum and her sister - we'll call her S - were exchanging texts which consisted of what they considered a juicy piece of gossip regarding S's BIL - her husband N's brother, who I'll call I. S and N live in Singapore, but came over to the UK recently due to the death of N and I's dad, to help with funeral arrangements etc. Their mum discovered a suitcase full of women's clothes and assumed her son was having an affair. On confronting I, he got all embarrassed and explained that he had recently got back into crossdressing, which he had briefly experimented with as a teenager in the 70s when glam rock was popular. The mother and this guy's wife went apeshit - they actually told him an affair would have been more acceptable. How fucked up is that? Basically, this poor bloke's now in the doghouse, and the way my mum was telling us about it, you'd think he'd murdered someone. I asked her what this guy had actually done wrong, and Mum turned round and said "well, would you ask that if he'd been caught drug dealing?" I said no, because drug dealing kills people and wearing unconventional clothing doesn't. Mum then admitted that probably was an unfair comparison, but then said that because their mother is in her 80s and is old-fashioned in her views, her son should be more considerate about not "embarrassing" her in front of her friends! Well frankly, I think you're never too old to open your eyes to the frequent changes of the modern world, and I don't see why somebody should get a pass from that just because they're over a certain age. And if I was this old lady and my friends were judging me over my son's choice of clothing, I'd try and find some better friends! (easier said than done, I know.) But I think it's this MIL's hypocrisy that really stings me - she's of a generation that whinges about how political correctness has destroyed freedom of speech, and you can't say bugger all these days without offending someone - and yet she expects her own child to deny a part of who he is just so she won't be offended. Then of course, the conversation got on to speculation about whether this man is secretly gay - which may be the case, but I don't personally think so. Of course, if he was, I would expect him to do the decent thing and leave his wife, but that's like suggesting I'm a lesbian because I never wear skirts. It's flawed logic. I said I thought labels like that were all bullshit anyway, and you make love to people not genders. That did seem to defuse things - Mum cuddled me in front of everyone, saying how proud she was to have raised such an unjudgmental daughter. That was nice, if a little embarrassing, and I did hope it had made her think. But yeah, hence the title, why does society still find certain prejudices OK? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't know if I would say that "society" still finds certain prejudices OK, at least in this context. I live in a rather back-woods small town and the same people who would smirk or recoil at cross-dressing would also have issues with gay people. The more liberal-minded would probably have no problem with either once they thought them through.

I kind of understand the guy's wife reacting strongly initially to any kind of 'secret' that he had kept from her and then revealed at a family do, regardless of the circumstances. It is human nature to question whether people who have hidden one thing from us may also have other secrets too. I am more surprised though that someone's MIL would rummage through their suitcase and then think it would be appropriate to have a say in a matter that belongs properly between the people affected!

[moodygirl86]

Hi Annie! I'm not sure why the guy had the suitcase with him in the first place, unless he was planning to have a night out with the contents. Mum didn't tell us that bit, but from what she has told us, he didn't exactly announce it at the funeral. Somebody got nosy and forced the lock with a screwdriver when they couldn't open it! That's what horrified me. My immediate family wouldn't invade my privacy like that.

I do see your point about secrets, however maybe if some people weren't so quick to assume the worst of men who dress in skirts and high heels etc, he wouldn't have felt the need to hide it. To me, this is an example of how patriarchy hurts men as well as women. In secular society, it's considered fine for women to wear jeans and cut their hair, and indeed all High Street clothing stores have trousers/traditionally "male" clothing in ladies' sizes. Whereas fashion designers don't seem to take into account that some men may feel more comfy in a dress. (I know it's considered acceptable for Scottish guys to wear kilts, but that seems to be very much an exception rather than the rule.)

[Guest Anonymous]

Edited: Sorry, I got confused by the relationships and initials in the original story. Am I right in thinking that the parents were actually guests in the daughter and son-in-law's home and took it upon themselves to open a locked, private suitcase belonging to their SIL while they were there?

Is there any more to the story, from the way the news has been spread around, it sounds as though there might have been a family conspiracy to get into the suitcase? Was there a history of suspicion/dislike for this man? Were they looking for a reason to 'discredit' him?

I completely agree that he should never have felt the need to keep a secret from anyone, and once the secret was out, everyone not living in the home should have gone the fuck away away and felt very ashamed for causing a ruckus in someone else's family home. I wouldn't call any part of the episode 'acceptable', these people seem to be short of boundaries in all areas of their relationships.

I just said what did about the wife because I wouldn't judge someone too harshly for their initial shock-reaction in any circumstance that involved a 'reveal' on something that had for any reason been deliberately witheld from them up to that point.

Edited after re-reading OP

[luckystone]

Hmm, well I don't find it an acceptable prejudice, and I'd say a lot of people don't. I'd say it was an individual blind spot in that person's tolerance (and different people have different ones, so other people who might be extremely tolerant of cross-dressing or do it themselves might be, say, racist).

I think cross-dressing isn't accepted enough though. It's just not common in public. That bugs me. Maybe some people like the fact it's a private thing they do? I don't know. I have seen obviously transsexual people in public but I don't think I've ever seen anyone seriously cross-dressing (not counting uni students who go to dress up parties as a joke) and I reckon it would be less acceptable than being trans.

[moodygirl86]

I'm not sure because I don't see much of my aunt, let alone her brother-in-law! I've never actually met him. Apparently his parents gave him grief in the 70s when he went out looking like Marc Bolan, but to me that just sounds like typical parent-vs-teen disagreement. As far as I'm aware, there have never been any major issues regarding the guy. Like you say, I think some people just have no boundaries, and unfortunately his mum's one of them.

[moodygirl86]

Hmm, well I don't find it an acceptable prejudice, and I'd say a lot of people don't. I'd say it was an individual blind spot in that person's tolerance (and different people have different ones, so other people who might be extremely tolerant of cross-dressing or do it themselves might be, say, racist).

I think cross-dressing isn't accepted enough though. It's just not common in public. That bugs me. Maybe some people like the fact it's a private thing they do? I don't know. I have seen obviously transsexual people in public but I don't think I've ever seen anyone seriously cross-dressing (not counting uni students who go to dress up parties as a joke) and I reckon it would be less acceptable than being trans.

Oh hi Luckystone, I just realised I cross posted with you! I think you have a point about some people somehow finding it more fun when it's secret.

What also pisses me off is the way crossdressers are sometimes portrayed in the media. A couple of years ago in the UK, there was a huge police manhunt for a deranged gunman called Raoul Moat, who shot three people, killing one and blinding another. He eventually shot himself, to the relief of the public, but the media couldn't resist digging up a photo of him dressed in drag. I remember thinking, wtf has that got to do with the issue at hand? The point is he's a murderer and a thug! His hobbies had nothing to do with it!

[luckystone]

Oh hi Luckystone, I just realised I cross posted with you! I think you have a point about some people somehow finding it more fun when it's secret.

What also pisses me off is the way crossdressers are sometimes portrayed in the media. A couple of years ago in the UK, there was a huge police manhunt for a deranged gunman called Raoul Moat, who shot three people, killing one and blinding another. He eventually shot himself, to the relief of the public, but the media couldn't resist digging up a photo of him dressed in drag. I remember thinking, wtf has that got to do with the issue at hand? The point is he's a murderer and a thug! His hobbies had nothing to do with it!

Yeah. It's considered just a bit off. I guess that's because it's sometimes linked to arousal (? correct me if I'm wrong here, but once I stumbled across a forum about men who loved wearing stockings and skirts, not because they liked wearing them but it was a sexual thing) and breaking other stereotypes is not.

But it's weird. It is just breaking a stereotype. And they are recent, useless stereotypes. (Men often had long hair until as recently as the 1800s, and wear/wore skirts in several cultures like Scottish, some pacific Islanders, I know little boys did in Western cultures, not sure about older men.) It's kind of like...a girl doing maths. Or racing cars. Or a boy who does ballet. Yet those things, while in some backwards areas they are still gossiped about, aren't treated with the same view that it's weird, and are becoming more and more acceptable. People think it's unusual but they just...view it differently. Like in the example you gave, if he'd been a ballet dancer, it probably wouldn't have been such a big deal, if that makes sense. They'd probably drag up a pic because that's what the media does, but it would be viewed as less odd. Am I making sense?

[moodygirl86]

Hi Annie, just noticed your edited post. The relationship dynamics in this story do come across as confusing in my OP, so sorry about that.

S = my aunt (mum's sister)

N = S's husband (mum's brother-in-law)

I = N's brother (mum's BIL and crossdressing guy).

All three named above were staying with N and I's mother, who broke into the locked suitcase which her son brought with him. They were guests in her house but as far as I'm aware it was nosiness rather than an actual conspiracy to discredit him. Hope that helps clarify things.

Luckystone, yes, I hadn't really looked at it that way. Everyone on this forum has such diverse and interesting opinions, and that's what I love about FJ! But I hope the time will come when people will be no more shocked by a crossdresser than they would a male ballet dancer.

[No Cure for Stupid]

Does it make me weird that I think guys who can pull off women's clothes are kinda hot?

[moodygirl86]

Does it make me weird that I think guys who can pull off women's clothes are kinda hot?

Not weird at all NCFS! But please clarify: pull off as in remove or get away with?! (I know, I'm 12).

[lawfulevil]

Pull off as in Eddie Izzard, I presume. Meow...

[2xx1xy1JD]

IME, it's treated in a similar way to homosexuality. Most people I know who are cool with one are cool with the other, and vice versa.

[J'ean Skirt]

They BROKE into his suitcase? And then came and told him HE was a problem?

Those are family dynamics more screwed up than my own. Stay out of my suitcase you *&@$ :angry-screaming: :angry-fire: :angry-steamingears:

[No Cure for Stupid]

Not weird at all NCFS! But please clarify: pull off as in remove or get away with?! (I know, I'm 12).

Wow, I didn't even realize the double entendre when I posted. I meant more along the lines of a guy who can wear women's clothes and look good at it.

[moodygirl86]

Wow, I didn't even realize the double entendre when I posted. I meant more along the lines of a guy who can wear women's clothes and look good at it.

Yeah, I know, I was pulling your leg. (I did warn you I'm 12). Unfortunately, I'm on my home computer, which deletes my posts when I try to include a "joking" smilie. But no, it's not weird to find men hot in women's clothes.

[valsa]

Does it make me weird that I think guys who can pull off women's clothes are kinda hot?

If you're weird, then I'm weird (okay, actually, I am weird so maybe that doesn't help any...)

I love men in women's clothing.

I have a special affinity towards thigh-high stockings with garter belts (on men or women... it's all good in valsa's world)