Contraception Lawsuit (Mennonites vs US Government)

[memmy]

Mennonites don't want to pay for contraception -- Plan B -- week after pill

This is something I could see fundies do. Do they have to pay into the insurance too?

IF they have employees - or do they opt out and make it a "religious business"

http://www.therecord.com/news/world/art ... ealth-care

[Gil]

When are fundies going to realize that we all pay for things we don't like?

[LadyFriend]

When are fundies going to realize that we all pay for things we don't like?

This. I'm not a huge fan of paying for drones to kill innocent civilians (you know...actual people) either, but I know that we don't get to allocate tax dollars as individuals.

I think this phenomenon has to do with the fact that social conservatives must feel like they have lost their majority status in this country. They are so used to their white Christian privilege that they think they have the right to re-assert it in ways like this. Nope. Welcome to an even playing field. :dance:

[RosyDaisy]

There are worse things than Plan B or BC that we pay for, but apparently for fundies that doesn't matter. It's all about making and saving babies. For the record, I'm all for free BC and Plan B.

[mkitten]

This. I'm not a huge fan of paying for drones to kill innocent civilians (you know...actual people) either, but I know that we don't get to allocate tax dollars as individuals.

I think this phenomenon has to do with the fact that social conservatives must feel like they have lost their majority status in this country. They are so used to their white Christian privilege that they think they have the right to re-assert it in ways like this. Nope. Welcome to an even playing field. :dance:

^^^^^^ yup. I'd rather be paying for medical care for vets, allocate more funding for education, and things of that nature...

[GiggleOfGirls]

^^^^^^ yup. I'd rather be paying for medical care for vets, allocate more funding for education, and things of that nature...

Pretty much! More funding for health care in general would be awesome...

[mirele]

Mennonites don't want to pay for contraception -- Plan B -- week after pill

This is something I could see fundies do. Do they have to pay into the insurance too?

IF they have employees - or do they opt out and make it a "religious business"

http://www.therecord.com/news/world/art ... ealth-care

Dear Mennonites: As a religion, you are opposed to war and you oppose conscription or joining the military, but gee, I've never heard a peep out of you about not paying all of your federal income tax. But when it comes to us women and controlling our bodily functions, you feel just fine in popping up and declaring war on us. Kiss my fat white hiney, you hypocrites.

[holierthanyou]

Dear Mennonites: As a religion, you are opposed to war and you oppose conscription or joining the military, but gee, I've never heard a peep out of you about not paying all of your federal income tax. But when it comes to us women and controlling our bodily functions, you feel just fine in popping up and declaring war on us. Kiss my fat white hiney, you hypocrites.

Dear Mirele: They do oppose paying for military through federal and state/provincial taxes as well.

http://peace.mennolink.org/wartaxes.html

[MennoNotFundy]

Let me just say a few things about this:

If I am correct, the people who own this business are from a very conservative Mennonite group which believes that contraception is wrong. Secondly, I believe the contraception in question is an afterwards pill...which is in effect a very early abortion. So their stance is against providing two things they believe to be sin: contraception and abortion, which they see as murder.

So they feel they are being forced to provide the funds for others commit legalized "murder". I see this as different than paying taxes which go to the government to decide what to spend it on. Paying taxes is 'rendering unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's' (Jesus' words), while providing abortions to employees is the government asking them to do something that is against God's command (thou shalt not kill) AND Jesus' teaching (do not hurt the least of these (children))

Also, the majority of conservative Mennonites believe in a true separation of church and state to the point that they do not hold public office or even vote. If all of the Mennonites and Amish had voted in the last election, Obama would have lost both PA and Ohio.

I would be happy to answer any questions about the Mennonites, as best as my knowlege and experience can do.

[MennoNotFundy]

Dear Mirele: They do oppose paying for military through federal and state/provincial taxes as well.

http://peace.mennolink.org/wartaxes.html

Your link is from the Mennonite USA site. Mennonite USA is worlds away from conservative Mennos. Apples and oranges. Mennonites do not fit neatly in one box.

We have no wish to wage war on women, I assure you. We just wish to be allowed to practice our faith in freedom.

[thekate]

Let me just say a few things about this:

If I am correct, the people who own this business are from a very conservative Mennonite group which believes that contraception is wrong. Secondly, I believe the contraception in question is an afterwards pill...which is in effect a very early abortion. So their stance is against providing two things they believe to be sin: contraception and abortion, which they see as murder.

(snip)

It's not an abortion. If you're already pregnant, it doesn't do anything to the pregnancy. It works by preventing implantation, which is after fertilization but before pregnancy. FWIW, most fertilized eggs are lost at that time naturally.

[Peas n carrots]

Your link is from the Mennonite USA site. Mennonite USA is worlds away from conservative Mennos. Apples and oranges. Mennonites do not fit neatly in one box.

We have no wish to wage war on women, I assure you. We just wish to be allowed to practice our faith in freedom.

How about allowing others to practice their faith and freedom too? Not all employees there are Mennonite. The company would be enforcing its values into the private lives of their employees.

For the record I grew up in a Mennonite community (not Menno myself) and my closest school friends were all Mennonite...however very very liberal. Many of them now are hippies.

[debrand]

Your link is from the Mennonite USA site. Mennonite USA is worlds away from conservative Mennos. Apples and oranges. Mennonites do not fit neatly in one box.

We have no wish to wage war on women, I assure you. We just wish to be allowed to practice our faith in freedom.

Unless the group is also suing to prevent their tax money from being used on drones to kill Afghanistan children then they are very big hypocrites. So, a mass of cells that hasn't formed a brain is more important than children(who can feel pain and terror) in another country being killed by drones?

The fact that you find a woman's right to abort a very early stage pregnancy so offensive that you'd sue the government because of it, but you do nothing about drones killing little kids, means that you are either highly prejudice against middle eastern people or you are in fact waging a war on women.(sorry for the wordy sentence)

[holierthanyou]

Your link is from the Mennonite USA site. Mennonite USA is worlds away from conservative Mennos. Apples and oranges. Mennonites do not fit neatly in one box.

We have no wish to wage war on women, I assure you. We just wish to be allowed to practice our faith in freedom.

Look, you're pinging my fundy radar here "mennonnotfundy", despite your handle. I know the differences between Mennonites, Markham Mennonites, Old Order Mennonites, David Martin Mennonites, and all that jazz. I know how many pleats to put in each style of prayer cap. I went to Mennonite schools, worked in Mennonite institutions, and did years of Mennonite service work. I've read the Martyr's Mirror, played the Mennonite name game on a near daily basis, and I can kick your ass in dutch blitz any day of the week. So don't try to say you're Mennonite therefor you have dibs on the "right" opinion on this. There are quite a few Mennonites on this forum.

While many Mennonites (of varying sects) DO oppose any part of their taxes going to the military, that doesn't justify saying they should be allowed to do whatever they want. That is bullshit. Anyone in the world can do "anything they want", but doing "anything you want" is going to have consequences (as it should) for anyone, including Mennonites and Fundies. So if they aren't going to provide the mandatory health insurance, then they can expect to pay the penalty fines (which will bankrupt them pretty quickly). There are no speshul snowflakes that just get to decide that the rules don't apply to them.

ETA: As for your other quote,

We have no wish to wage war on women, I assure you. We just wish to be allowed to practice our faith in freedom.

, that is bullshit too. Being "allowed to practice our faith in freedom" means you can practice YOUR faith in freedom, not inflict your faith on others in your workplace. If the US government was holding a gun to the head of an employee and saying they had to have an abortion right then and there and that the company would pay for it, THAT would be inflicting on the employee's right to make her own decisions about her body and her religion and whether or not she wanted to have an abortion. Freedom to practice my faith means no one can make me have an abortion if I am theologically opposed to it, because that does not infringe on anyone else's rights. Refusing to provide the OPTION of contraception is not freely practicing your own faith, it is inflicting your faith on others in a manner that opposes their own rights.

[MennoNotFundy]

Look, you're pinging my fundy radar here "mennonnotfundy", despite your handle. I know the differences between Mennonites, Markham Mennonites, Old Order Mennonites, David Martin Mennonites, and all that jazz. I know how many pleats to put in each style of prayer cap. I went to Mennonite schools, worked in Mennonite institutions, and did years of Mennonite service work. I've read the Martyr's Mirror, played the Mennonite name game on a near daily basis, and I can kick your @#!*% in dutch blitz any day of the week. So don't try to say you're Mennonite therefor you have dibs on the "right" opinion on this. There are quite a few Mennonites on this forum.

While many Mennonites (of varying sects) DO oppose any part of their taxes going to the military, that doesn't justify saying they should be allowed to do whatever they want. That is @#!*% . Anyone in the world can do "anything they want", but doing "anything you want" is going to have consequences (as it should) for anyone, including Mennonites and Fundies. So if they aren't going to provide the mandatory health insurance, then they can expect to pay the penalty fines (which will bankrupt them pretty quickly). There are no speshul snowflakes that just get to decide that the rules don't apply to them.

quote]

I agree with all of what you said here. Not sure why you think I don't agree?

As for whether mennos are fundy or not, I guess it's a matter of what your definition of "fundy" is. Semantics. Call me a fundy if you wish...I'm not going to argue that point anymore.

[holierthanyou]

Um, you just removed the word "bullshit" from where you were quoting me so that you could replace it with percent signs and exclamation points. I think that adds to the "fundy" vibe big time. Like you are so offended by it you can't even leave the damn quote alone. That not semantics, that's fundy.

The reason I don't think we agree is because you were saying that those Mennonites just want to be allowed to practice their religion in freedom, whereas I was saying freedom of religion means no one can force them to swallow a contraceptive pill, it doesn't mean they have the right to remove the contraception option for others who might want it. I understand you to be saying that you think it is understandable and ok for a Mennonite employer to say it is against his religion and ergo he should not have to pay for contraceptives (which I think you also equated with abortion).

[Sola]

Let me just say a few things about this:

If I am correct, the people who own this business are from a very conservative Mennonite group which believes that contraception is wrong. Secondly, I believe the contraception in question is an afterwards pill...which is in effect a very early abortion. So their stance is against providing two things they believe to be sin: contraception and abortion, which they see as murder.

So they feel they are being forced to provide the funds for others commit legalized "murder". I see this as different than paying taxes which go to the government to decide what to spend it on. Paying taxes is 'rendering unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's' (Jesus' words), while providing abortions to employees is the government asking them to do something that is against God's command (thou shalt not kill) AND Jesus' teaching (do not hurt the least of these (children))

Also, the majority of conservative Mennonites believe in a true separation of church and state to the point that they do not hold public office or even vote. If all of the Mennonites and Amish had voted in the last election, Obama would have lost both PA and Ohio.

I would be happy to answer any questions about the Mennonites, as best as my knowlege and experience can do.

First off the morning after pill does not cause abortion. You are getting your 'facts' from anti-abortion sites and you are falling for propaganda.

Nobody is forcing anyone to take the pill, they are just making it available for people to take it if they wish.

Also, the majority of conservative Mennonites believe in a true separation of church and state to the point that they do not hold public office or even vote. If all of the Mennonites and Amish had voted in the last election, Obama would have lost both PA and Ohio.

If you choose not to vote then I don't see how you have a right to whinge and whine about laws. You had a choice to vote for the candidate opposed to those laws but you chose not to.

What you are trying to do now is force your views and lifestyle upon others, yet you are not prepared to vote for that. Many people are fine with contraception and abortion. Many people have different religions to yours and some people have no religion at all. How would you feel if an Islamic group wanted to force all women to wear burqas by law in the USA and took it to court?

In my country contraception and abortion are free. That is the way it should be. We have the choice to use them or not.

You can practice your faith, but what you cannot do is force your faith on others.

[Wolfie]

Look, you're pinging my fundy radar here "mennonnotfundy", despite your handle. I know the differences between Mennonites, Markham Mennonites, Old Order Mennonites, David Martin Mennonites, and all that jazz. I know how many pleats to put in each style of prayer cap. I went to Mennonite schools, worked in Mennonite institutions, and did years of Mennonite service work. I've read the Martyr's Mirror, played the Mennonite name game on a near daily basis, and I can kick your ass in dutch blitz any day of the week. So don't try to say you're Mennonite therefor you have dibs on the "right" opinion on this. There are quite a few Mennonites on this forum.

While many Mennonites (of varying sects) DO oppose any part of their taxes going to the military, that doesn't justify saying they should be allowed to do whatever they want. That is bullshit. Anyone in the world can do "anything they want", but doing "anything you want" is going to have consequences (as it should) for anyone, including Mennonites and Fundies. So if they aren't going to provide the mandatory health insurance, then they can expect to pay the penalty fines (which will bankrupt them pretty quickly). There are no speshul snowflakes that just get to decide that the rules don't apply to them.

ETA: As for your other quote,

, that is bullshit too. Being "allowed to practice our faith in freedom" means you can practice YOUR faith in freedom, not inflict your faith on others in your workplace. If the US government was holding a gun to the head of an employee and saying they had to have an abortion right then and there and that the company would pay for it, THAT would be inflicting on the employee's right to make her own decisions about her body and her religion and whether or not she wanted to have an abortion. Freedom to practice my faith means no one can make me have an abortion if I am theologically opposed to it, because that does not infringe on anyone else's rights. Refusing to provide the OPTION of contraception is not freely practicing your own faith, it is inflicting your faith on others in a manner that opposes their own rights.

This- thank you as a fellow liberal Mennonite- though not practicing since the closest church is over an hour away.

[holierthanyou]

This- thank you as a fellow liberal Mennonite- though not practicing since the closest church is over an hour away.

High five... also an hour away from a Mennonite church!

[thetabmeister]

If an individual woman doesn't believe in using BC or Plan B type pills, then no one is forcing her to. Why don't religious folks see the harm in their forcing other women whose convictions are not the same as theirs into not using these products? Whether or not it's "murder" (which I know it isn't) isn't the point. If you're following a biblical command to "not murder," that command as read by you out of the Bible would be therefore only for *you* individually. It doesn't say "thou shalt ensure that none of thy neighbors do something that you claim is equivalent to murder." Really. It's simple.

[MennoNotFundy]

I really not do have the time or the energy to engage in a debate over any of this. A debate was never my intention. I simply meant to throw another point of view out there.

I really have no desire to try to convince anyone who doesn't wish to be convinced. I realize the members of this board are overwhelmingly in disagreement with me, and I'm OK with that. You have a right to your beliefs.

BTW, it was my internet filter that replaced those words, holierthanthou. This is the family computer.

And one more thing, I did vote in the election. Not all Mennonites believe it's wrong to vote. And for the record, I never said I agreed with what Mennonite company is doing...to be honest I am not sure I am OK with it at all...I am still thinking that one through.

I am done here. Thanks for accomodating me, but I have better ways to spend my time. I wish you all the best. Happy holidays.

[holierthanyou]

I really not do have the time or the energy to engage in a debate..... I am done here. Thanks for accomodating me, but I have better ways to spend my time....

So you want to come here to have different opinions, share different opinions, but we're not supposed to "debate" or talk about them/push further? Interesting. So you get your say and then everyone else has to stop talking? Does this work for you in the real world?

This is a record quick flounce, but I will bring out the flounce cake nonetheless:

BTW, it was my internet filter that replaced those words, holierthanthou. This is the family computer.

:lol: :doh: :dance: :doh: :lol:

Oh Noes... a family computer!!!

ETA: Why is it people have time to come and share their opinions on FJ and that is all well and good and the best possible use of time they have available to them, but then once there is strong disagreement all of a sudden these busy peoples have lives to tend to, y'all!?!?! Not like us hags, zomg.

[Witsec7]

I really not do have the time or the energy to engage in a debate over any of this. A debate was never my intention. I simply meant to throw another point of view out there.

I really have no desire to try to convince anyone who doesn't wish to be convinced. I realize the members of this board are overwhelmingly in disagreement with me, and I'm OK with that. You have a right to your beliefs.

BTW, it was my internet filter that replaced those words, holierthanthou. This is the family computer.

And one more thing, I did vote in the election. Not all Mennonites believe it's wrong to vote. And for the record, I never said I agreed with what Mennonite company is doing...to be honest I am not sure I am OK with it at all...I am still thinking that one through.

I am done here. Thanks for accomodating me, but I have better ways to spend my time. I wish you all the best. Happy holidays.

The other POV is your willingness to sacrifice the reproductive choice of women to a theonomy. All will be good when your religion gets to make the rules and enact them as law. You are just another fundy, regardless of the the faith you follow.

[Gil]

I really not do have the time or the energy to engage in a debate over any of this. A debate was never my intention. I simply meant to throw another point of view out there.

I really have no desire to try to convince anyone who doesn't wish to be convinced. I realize the members of this board are overwhelmingly in disagreement with me, and I'm OK with that. You have a right to your beliefs.

BTW, it was my internet filter that replaced those words, holierthanthou. This is the family computer.

And one more thing, I did vote in the election. Not all Mennonites believe it's wrong to vote. And for the record, I never said I agreed with what Mennonite company is doing...to be honest I am not sure I am OK with it at all...I am still thinking that one through.

I am done here. Thanks for accomodating me, but I have better ways to spend my time. I wish you all the best. Happy holidays.

You seem confused about the function of a forum. Incredibly, they are for discussing things with other human beings, not merely stating your opinions. If you would like to state your opinions in an arena where they cannot be questioned or discussed in any way, blog.com, wordpress.com, and blogger.com all offer blog hosting where commentary can be disabled. You might want to try one of those if you feel like typing words that are not actually intended for communication.

[OkToBeTakei]

I really not do have the time or the energy to engage in a debate over any of this. A debate was never my intention. I simply meant to throw another point of view out there.

I really have no desire to try to convince anyone who doesn't wish to be convinced. I realize the members of this board are overwhelmingly in disagreement with me, and I'm OK with that. You have a right to your beliefs.

BTW, it was my internet filter that replaced those words, holierthanthou. This is the family computer.

And one more thing, I did vote in the election. Not all Mennonites believe it's wrong to vote. And for the record, I never said I agreed with what Mennonite company is doing...to be honest I am not sure I am OK with it at all...I am still thinking that one through.

I am done here. Thanks for accomodating me, but I have better ways to spend my time. I wish you all the best. Happy holidays.

The fact that you read here and posted makes me think you do think about these things. I hope you do. It's not easy to be in a place where you know everybody will probably disagree with you. For some reason some seem to think it is just this forum. It is a big world out there. Very big. I think more than anything that disturbs me, the ability to see life from such a narrow and dare I say selfish perspective.

You talk about one company, one issue, one religion. But no nod to how women all over the world may feel. I think others were trying to say that to you.

Best of luck to you.