"Godless" Culture?

[O Latin]

In the thread about the "persecuted" street preachers at ComiCon there were several references (in the quotes from the "persecuted" ones) to how "godless" our culture has become, which got me thinking. Was there every a time when pop culture was super Godly? I would argue that pop culture is no less godless than it's ever been, although there might be more of it more readily available to more people. What do y'all think?

[emmiedahl]

I don't think our culture is Godless at all. Most Americans are at least somewhat religious. Most of our movies have a moral of some sort and the television shows glorify marriage and family; that's not inherently religious, but it can hardly be criticized as being anti-God. It may not be fundie enough for the fundies, but I bet an atheist would be hella annoyed in everyday life because we reference God everywhere.

[valsa]

I submit the question to you- when has our culture ever not been "Godly"? (obsessed with the Christian God)

It's in our pledge, on our money, has been the flavor of all of our presidents, it used to start the school day, and being Christian/Godly has been shorthand for having morals since who knows when.

[shesinsane]

Usually when someone says "Godless", they don't mean the absence of God, just the absence of their God. Native Americans were called Godless heathens not because of a lack of God (they had many) but their lack of the same God as the white man.

Or maybe they mean society changing morals and standards. Every time a faith based law gets changed (like the many towns that made it illegal to open your store on Sunday, the Lord's day of rest), our country gets a little more Godless. ;)

[debrand]

At one time, in the United States our film was censored so I suppose that the media might have been considered less offensive(According to some standards) although I don't know if it was more godly.

[tinuviel]

At one time, in the United States our film was censored so I suppose that the media might have been considered less offensive(According to some standards) although I don't know if it was more godly.

I imagine that's true. My parents' eyes fill with longing and nostalgia whenever anyone mentions "Leave it to Beaver", although my mom does admit that June is kind of a twit.

I think this goes with the theme of Fundies define morality by negatives. We don't[/] listen to ungodly music, we don't hold hands before marriage, we don't[/] do any number of normal inane things because we are extra holy. It seems like they're so focused on the negatives that they forget the positive commandments to love, for instance.

[jesusfreak]

A lot of our oaths in the judicial system are still god-based. Whether it's the phrase "So help me God", or even actually putting a hand on a bible.

[finleeport]

Even if the culture still does have some god based ideas like 'So help me God' in the Judicial System, it can be meaningless as saying 'God Bless You' after you sneeze. The early religious folk did believe that sneezing was caused by demons. But we don't believe that anymore.

[debrand]

Even if the culture still does have some god based ideas like 'So help me God' in the Judicial System, it can be meaningless as saying 'God Bless You' after you sneeze. The early religious folk did believe that sneezing was caused by demons. But we don't believe that anymore.

Although that is true, if it was completly meaningless, I don't think that there would be any fight over removing 'under god' from the pledge.

[kaetrin]

Well, Christians were considered ungodly/atheists in Roman society so it depends on your definitions, I guess.

maybe "godless" to a fundie = separation of church and state plus a general cultural decline in biblical literacy plus increased freedom in matters of personal morality?

[emmiedahl]

I won't say the 'under God' part of the pledge even though I believe in a God and here's why: I think it goes against the 'One Nation, Indivisible' part. I think we have to choose between being a religious nation (that is divided along these lines) and being a secular nation (where you can be a patriot and believe whatever you want to about God).

I have brought people over to my side with that argument. Feel free to borrow it. Also, that line was added in the 20th century and is not an original part of the pledge.

I love the US and I think the fact that we are a heterogenous blend of faiths and cultures is one of the coolest things about being here.

[xDreamerx]

I think American culture has never been Godless. America was created on the idea of godliness. (Not the Constitution, Puritans). It's been a thread running through American consciousness forever. America is probably the only developed nation that is highly religious, not to say that other countries are not, but God doesn't keep into politics and all kinds of aspects of life in other places in quite the same way that it does in America. The Eisenhower era was responsible for "under God" and the politics of the day were very calculated in using God to fight the Communists, at least in people's minds. Communists were godless and God was something America had on its side. This was also an era of huge moral sanctions (for lack of a better word) on society. Books, movies, porn, anything remotely objectionable was banned or censored. (Howl anyone?).

As a Canadian, it's really strange for me to watch. If people brought up God as much in our politics...well, people would just dismiss them or think they're crazy. And I just referring to the Tea Partyers or the obviously nutty ones, but also the mainstream acceptance of God in politics and public life. Religion is much more of private issue here. Though, I will say that despite it's pitfalls and despite the crazy people, religion might be one of those things that helps make the American story a great one. Lincoln might have given up without God. Who knows if Civil Rights would have lasted without religion and faith.

[finleeport]

xDreamerx, I like to point out, when you mentioned the Constitution, the Founding Fathers were not Christians, they were Deists, as pointed out by Christopher Hitchens. So I don't think the Constitution was meant to be religious-based.

[xDreamerx]

xDreamerx, I like to point out, when you mentioned the Constitution, the Founding Fathers were not Christians, they were Deists, as pointed out by Christopher Hitchens. So I don't think the Constitution was meant to be religious-based.

Which is why I said NOT the Constitution, Puritans. I know they weren't all Christians. I'm not that stupid.

[alphaeta08]

Ugh, I hate when people say the U.S. is "godless." It's like they've never been to other countries (well, realistically, they probably haven't) that really are godless, i.e. religion isn't brought up or considered very often. I just don't get how people can't see the obvious religiosity EVERYWHERE, even where it isn't supposed to be, like public schools, the government, etc. And I get the impression that it's gotten more prevalent in recent decades with the rise of fundyism, so saying the culture is "godless" seems so stupid. Of course, if you think every Christian besides you isn't a real Christian, the world probably does seem pretty godless.

[O Latin]

Interesting, I've never really seen our culture as being infused with religion, although I live in a not very religious area, so that could be part of it, but I see what everyone was getting at. I guess I was more thinking about the fundie definition of Godless, which seems to be that anything that's not 100% always completely about God is horrible and awful. But I was really trying to challenge the idea that our culture, however Godly/Godless it might be today, has become more Godless over time, which is what I think is untrue. I think back to, say, Shakespeare. His plays might mention religion now and then, but they can also be quite immoral and bawdy and I don't think they would fit anyone's definition of "Godly." Puritans in Elizabethan England tried to get the theaters closed down because they thought theater was evil and corrupting. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, but that's one of the few examples of historical pop culture that I'm really familiar with. When I think back through history, it seems like pop culture has always been pretty "Godless," as the fundies would see it, so I think they're trying to create a problem where one doesn't exist by insisting that modern culture has become Godless.

[Petals]

I think the thought that our world is "Godless" has something to do with the conservative fantasy of a "more innocent time." Whether it's the 50's, the turn of the century, or the revolutionary period, many conservatives have this crazy idea that there was a point in time where people were uniformly well-behaved, religious, hard-working, and content. They yearn for a place and time which has never existed, a place that was "God-filled" instead of "Godless."

I guess you could argue that in the Middle Ages, "high" art and music was almost completely focused around religion. But people were just as badly behaved then as they are today.

[xDreamerx]

I think the thought that our world is "Godless" has something to do with the conservative fantasy of a "more innocent time." Whether it's the 50's, the turn of the century, or the revolutionary period, many conservatives have this crazy idea that there was a point in time where people were uniformly well-behaved, religious, hard-working, and content. They yearn for a place and time which has never existed, a place that was "God-filled" instead of "Godless."

I guess you could argue that in the Middle Ages, "high" art and music was almost completely focused around religion. But people were just as badly behaved then as they are today.

Exactly. The culture in the Middle Ages was hyper religious, but that doesn't mean people didn't swear, get drunk, or engage in premarital sex, affairs, etc. in fact this was pretty much par for the course amongst the upper-class. The 50s had that squeaky clean image, but again people still did "bad" things they just pretended it never happened or didn't talk about it. My grandmother is of that generation and she is the master of sweeping things under the rug.

The whole pre-industrial thing has been argued outside of fundieism (Rousseau). The idea being that in the age of modernity we have become a decaying society, more akin to machines (T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland).

I think people--fundies and non fundies alike--have this perception of the "good old days". It's just that when viewed in the guise of "taking back the land" and revisionist history it becomes something else.

[emmiedahl]

Most of the founding fathers were not Deists, either. Most self-identified as Protestant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_F ... s#Religion

This should not be an excuse for religious tyranny in the US, however.

[O Latin]

It always drives me crazy when people say "the founding fathers were X" because it's not like they all had identical beliefs. I bet they had some pretty awesome arguments about politics and religion.

[emmiedahl]

Right, they were a very mixed group. The things they had in common were that they were white, wealthy, and male. Although, you know, that's a lot to have in common.

[xDreamerx]

It always drives me crazy when people say "the founding fathers were X" because it's not like they all had identical beliefs. I bet they had some pretty awesome arguments about politics and religion.

Me too. I wouldn't say because they were Christians they had Christian intentions for the nation, but that doesn't mean they didn't identify as such. Wasn't Adams a Universalist or am I mistaken?

[emmiedahl]

He was a Congregationalist who became a Unitarian.

[xDreamerx]

It was interesting to me to learn this. I didn't know Unitarianism went that far back.

[emmiedahl]

I don't think it was the same (in beliefs) as the church is now. Some of the quotes from Adams seem very intolerant and Christocentric, but maybe he was just a product of his times.