Using toy drives to proselytize to needy families

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, G33kywife said:

I have had a good experience with OCC, but I will definitely read the links posted with an open mind.

Thank you for being willing to look into it with an open mind. I know that OCC was something I always enjoyed doing and I didn't have a bad experience with it, but once I started reading about how they try to convert children and about Samaritan's Purse, it became very hard to justify participating. 

I think it comes down to the whole "do unto others" rule. Would you or I, appreciate another religion using toys to try to lure our children away from our beliefs? Would we appreciate our children being told we are liars and that our beliefs are wrong? I know I wouldn't and if I would find that offensive, why wouldn't it be offensive for me to do it? Somethings are just not okay and using toys to convert children away from their parents' religion is one of them. 

On 10/28/2016 at 10:01 AM, hoipolloi said:

Would never share Franklin Graham's theology or politics, but he's always seemed especially vile and loathsome to me ever since he overruled his mother's last wishes over her burial site and stuck her in his theme park.

That is just terrible. Franklin Graham is just a bad person, another reason to not participate in OCC. What sort of person does something like this?!

[LadyCrow1313]

On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 4:31 PM, bea said:

If anyone is interested in donating things at Christmas, and you are in the United States, your local police district will have a toy drive. Police districts all over the country have them every year, I am one of the coordinators for my district here in Chicago. We have a fair number of low-income families, we usually can get at least one gift for every child on the list. The lists are submitted by social services, so we have whole wish lists from some people, and just name, sex, age, clothing and shoe sizes for other kids.

Most post offices or local banks have toy drives, too. In addition, one of the places that I work at has an annual toy drive; they set up a number of tags for either boys or girls to choose from (and with the intended child's age). If you're so inclined, you pick a tag, buy an age-appropriate gift for the child, & bring it into work unwrapped.

[BobTheWalrus]

Personally I prefer to buy sponsorship-type gifts from places like Gospel for Asia or Tearfund - the kind of thing where you buy a goat or chickens or sponsor a well or something like that. Projects that are tailored to the country and specific needs of that area/culture.

Having said that, I know people who have been on the receiving end of shoeboxes from OCC, and they have nothing but respect for the organisation.  The gifts have been well-received, and although literature was also offered there was no pressure to take it, and certainly no aspect of "you can only have these gifts if you convert". I imagine it varies from country to country though. And I completely agree that it is important to consider the local impact of giving rather than just patting ourselves on the back for our benevolence and generosity.

[FormerlyFundyLite]

4 hours ago, BobTheWalrus said:

Personally I prefer to buy sponsorship-type gifts from places like Gospel for Asia or Tearfund - the kind of thing where you buy a goat or chickens or sponsor a well or something like that. Projects that are tailored to the country and specific needs of that area/culture.

Having said that, I know people who have been on the receiving end of shoeboxes from OCC, and they have nothing but respect for the organisation.  The gifts have been well-received, and although literature was also offered there was no pressure to take it, and certainly no aspect of "you can only have these gifts if you convert". I imagine it varies from country to country though. And I completely agree that it is important to consider the local impact of giving rather than just patting ourselves on the back for our benevolence and generosity.

I encourage you to look further into GfA. There are a lot of reports of its leader, KP Yohannan, acting abusively, and also issues surrounding their finances. They recently lost their ECFA (Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability) endorsement. Warren Throckmorton has done a lot of research and reporting on his blog: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/category/gospel-for-asia/, and many former employees are speaking out: http://www.gfadiaspora.com.

I almost signed up to sponsor a local missionary after reading Yohannan's book, Revolution in World Missions (and before the drama broke to national awareness), but I had an indescribable little niggling in my mind and didn't feel confident in supporting his ministry, so I never did. I'm glad I didn't now.

[RandomTrivia]

On 10/27/2016 at 1:05 PM, tankgirl said:

I won't do any of the animal projects like Heifer International either. They are having issues as well. With families not being able to afford care, wrong animals in wrong environments and it not bettering the animal or peoples lives.

I admit I am a huge fan of helping local, or Women for Women. It gives loans and education to women in war torn areas. With the help, they create ways to help their families bring in money, and the more women do this, they tend to invest more in their villages, and others, bettering their families and others.

Do you have any more information on the issues with Heifer?  Our school does a Readathon with them every year (this month).  I think about this time last year we were discussing the same thing, but I couldn't find anything online.  (Other than my family grumping that they only help people in other countries, but that's my family for you.)

[tankgirl]

11 hours ago, RandomTrivia said:

Do you have any more information on the issues with Heifer?  Our school does a Readathon with them every year (this month).  I think about this time last year we were discussing the same thing, but I couldn't find anything online.  (Other than my family grumping that they only help people in other countries, but that's my family for you.)

Some do arguably have a vegan lean, but can't find some of what I read in the past, but this might help some.

http://awfw.org/no-animal-gifts/

Quote from this article with a heavy lean to vegans, but a good point,

A United Nations Environment Programme survey counted 6,500 distinct breeds of domesticated mammal and birds in 170 countries across the planet, including cows, goats, sheep, buffalo, yaks, pigs, horses, rabbits, chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese and even ostriches. Unfortunately, much of this variety being lost because of programs like those funded by Heifer, which is introducing Irish goats into Kenya. In China, their "Pixian Dairy Cattle Importation and Improvement Project" is using imported cattle to provide "high quality semen and embryo transfe ...for dairy development,? supposedly to increase the quality of the breeding stock. But the effort to "improve" the gene pool with foreign imports can have unforeseen consequences. "The greatest threat to domestic animal diversity is the export of animals from developed to developing countries," says the United Nations' Food and Agriculture Organization, "which often leads to crossbreeding or even replacement of local breeds." Loss of diversity puts animals (and the people who depend on those animals) at heightened risk.

http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/heifer-whatswrong.html



An a charity sight that mentions no proof they do what they say they will.

http://blog.givewell.org/2009/12/28/celebrated-charities-that-we-dont-recommend/

Sorry not to dig up less biased pieces but I know I read some.

[Clementine]

On 2016-10-27 at 6:11 PM, livinginthelight said:

Great question!

The wonderful book, When Helping Hurts https://www.amazon.com/When-Helping-Hurts-Alleviate-Yourself/dp/0802409989/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477584419&sr=8-1&keywords=when+helping+hurts

explains why this, and many other well-intentioned charities, is a very bad idea. (This gives Operation Christmas Child the benefit of being well-intentioned. I don't trust Franklin Graham at all.) Giving Christmas presents "to those who don't have any", sends a very disempowering message to the family, particularly the heads of household. The message is, "you cannot sufficiently provide for your family. We have to step in and do it better than you ever could.  You are not a capable provider. " 

The negative social ramifications of such a message are huge. I found this book very eye-opening and highly recommend it.

 

It's  a great book. One objection I had when I would make care packages to send to Eastern Europe was that I went out here in Sweden and bought everything (our packages contained mostly food and hygiene items), made packages and then I had to mail them to the organization who then sent them on a truck to Romania or Lithuania.

Our food prices are close to 10 times higher than in those countries, I spent about 100 dollars on shipping and I have no idea what it cost to send the packages from Sweden to Easten Europe. Probably a lot. For the same amount of money that I spent on shopping+shipping, ten times more packages could have been bought locally. It just didn't make much sense, besides the fact that I got to feel good when making packages.

Apparently the organization I support have had the same discussion, so now if you want to participate in the Christmas package giveaway, you donate $20 per package. All goods are bought locally so they get a lot of stuff for the money and also stimulate the local economy and no money or CO2 is spent on shipping.
Btw, I always chose to have my packages sent to elderly people. (We could chose between families and old people.) There are a lot of pensioners who have really hard lives and I feel that they are a group that is almost always forgotten when it comes to help work.

[outtheblue]

I was going to do OCC this year after I watched a video on Facebook of 100 or so African kids opening these boxes with such joy and excitement and it made me cry, but I did not know who was behind OCC so I'm glad I'm informed now. The mall where I used to live had a Christmas Angel tree where you choose a random local child to buy a gift for, and I enjoyed doing that. 

[RandomTrivia]

18 hours ago, tankgirl said:

Some do arguably have a vegan lean, but can't find some of what I read in the past, but this might help some.

http://awfw.org/no-animal-gifts/

Quote from this article with a heavy lean to vegans, but a good point,

A United Nations Environment Programme survey counted 6,500 distinct breeds of domesticated mammal and birds in 170 countries across the planet, including cows, goats, sheep, buffalo, yaks, pigs, horses, rabbits, chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese and even ostriches. Unfortunately, much of this variety being lost because of programs like those funded by Heifer, which is introducing Irish goats into Kenya. In China, their "Pixian Dairy Cattle Importation and Improvement Project" is using imported cattle to provide "high quality semen and embryo transfe ...for dairy development,? supposedly to increase the quality of the breeding stock. But the effort to "improve" the gene pool with foreign imports can have unforeseen consequences. "The greatest threat to domestic animal diversity is the export of animals from developed to developing countries," says the United Nations' Food and Agriculture Organization, "which often leads to crossbreeding or even replacement of local breeds." Loss of diversity puts animals (and the people who depend on those animals) at heightened risk.

http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/heifer-whatswrong.html



An a charity sight that mentions no proof they do what they say they will.

http://blog.givewell.org/2009/12/28/celebrated-charities-that-we-dont-recommend/

Sorry not to dig up less biased pieces but I know I read some.

Thanks.  I'll Google again and see if I can find anything else.  I was under the impression that they bought the animals locally, so they'd be acclimated to the local situation, but I don't remember where I got that from.

[PennySycamore]

Oddly enough, I got a catalogue from World Vision in the afternoon mail today.  You can give animals like Heifer, but you can also give to help girls rescued from sex trafficking, provide girl's educations,  give soccer balls to a school, give bikes, fishing kits for a family, seeds, warm clothing and shoes, vaccines, bed nets, water wells and so on.  Of course, you may also give Bibles, but most of their gifts meet secular needs.

I am a vegetarian, but I'm bothered that so much of the criticism of Heifer International and similar programs come from people who don't think you should eat or wear animals at all.  I tend to agree with Anthony Bourdain that veganism is a Western developed world thing.  I am not against veganism, but I do think you need to remember that it isn't always the way people or even animals (I'm thinking of sheep) can live.

My daughter worked hard at her Jaycees haunted house this Halloween season.  They raised thousands of dollars for Nothing But Nets to combat malaria.

[Lurky]

Oxfam do similar gift schemes (we gave to them at work one year, instead of Xmas cards to each other), but they're 100% secular, and will never try to use helping people in developing countries as an opportunity to evangelise

http://www.oxfam.org.uk

[nastyhobbitses]

6 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

Oddly enough, I got a catalogue from World Vision in the afternoon mail today.  You can give animals like Heifer, but you can also give to help girls rescued from sex trafficking, provide girl's educations,  give soccer balls to a school, give bikes, fishing kits for a family, seeds, warm clothing and shoes, vaccines, bed nets, water wells and so on.  Of course, you may also give Bibles, but most of their gifts meet secular needs.

I am a vegetarian, but I'm bothered that so much of the criticism of Heifer International and similar programs come from people who don't think you should eat or wear animals at all.  I tend to agree with Anthony Bourdain that veganism is a Western developed world thing.  I am not against veganism, but I do think you need to remember that it isn't always the way people or even animals (I'm thinking of sheep) can live.

My daughter worked hard at her Jaycees haunted house this Halloween season.  They raised thousands of dollars for Nothing But Nets to combat malaria.

While I counter-argue the malaria problem will not wait for a bed net industry to develop, Dambisa Moyo had an interesting point that a lot of these charities that give in-kind, material gifts or donations to people in developing countries are hampering economic development by just handing out stuff that could be manufactured and sold in-country by local people and thus give them a living. A valid point, but again, certain problems will not wait for that factory to get built, and the wages workers would get paid to make those things would be paltry -- they wouldn't be able to afford those products (another blogger I read theorizes that this departure from Fordism is why a lot of products made in China and the like are so low-quality -- why be invested in the products you make if you could never possibly own them with what the bossman pays you?).

[smittykins]

6 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

Oddly enough, I got a catalogue from World Vision in the afternoon mail today.  You can give animals like Heifer, but you can also give to help girls rescued from sex trafficking, provide girl's educations,  give soccer balls to a school, give bikes, fishing kits for a family, seeds, warm clothing and shoes, vaccines, bed nets, water wells and so on.  Of course, you may also give Bibles, but most of their gifts meet secular needs.

I am a vegetarian, but I'm bothered that so much of the criticism of Heifer International and similar programs come from people who don't think you should eat or wear animals at all.  I tend to agree with Anthony Bourdain that veganism is a Western developed world thing. I am not against veganism, but I do think you need to remember that it isn't always the way people or even animals (I'm thinking of sheep) can live.

My daughter worked hard at her Jaycees haunted house this Halloween season.  They raised thousands of dollars for Nothing But Nets to combat malaria.

Emphasis mine.

I've heard of people who have tried to feed dogs and cats vegan diets.  Cats are obligate carnivores, which means they need meat to stay healthy.

[VooDooChild]

4 hours ago, smittykins said:

Emphasis mine.

I've heard of people who have tried to feed dogs and cats vegan diets.  Cats are obligate carnivores, which means they need meat to stay healthy.

My daughter is vegan and this drives her batty.  If you're so concerned about the welfare of animals why would you not feed your pets the optimum diet based on their needs? 

[lilwriter85]

7 hours ago, smittykins said:

Emphasis mine.

I've heard of people who have tried to feed dogs and cats vegan diets.  Cats are obligate carnivores, which means they need meat to stay healthy.

 

3 hours ago, VooDooChild said:

My daughter is vegan and this drives her batty.  If you're so concerned about the welfare of animals why would you not feed your pets the optimum diet based on their needs? 

My bf's uncle and aunt own rental properties and two years ago one of their former tenants who also had mental health issues was admitted to a mental hospital. She asked my bf's aunt to find a vegan home for the cat. The cat was ill due to the diet and he was adopted by the vet who treated him.

[VooDooChild]

Poor kitty!  I'm glad he got a new owner who can take care of him now.

I just cannot understand what is going through their heads.  

[lilwriter85]

10 minutes ago, VooDooChild said:

Poor kitty!  I'm glad he got a new owner who can take care of him now.

I just cannot understand what is going through their heads.  

My bf's aunt sympathized with the tenant a little because of the mental illness issues. The vet and my bf's aunt were still upset about the cat's condition partially because there are many people with or without mental illness that wouldn't try to push a vegan diet on an animal.

[Trynn]

Fair warning: don't donate to world vision unless you want mail. A LOT of mail. They're probably a good organization, but I got turned off by all the mail they sent me.

As a vegetarian, I am horrified at the idea of making my cat do likewise. In fact, I spend extra money on food so that she can have real meat rather than meat by product.

I've read that there is a responsible way to do vegetarian for cats, but I personally remain unconvinced.

[Rubaiyat]

Up voting everyone taking care of their pets according to the needs of the pets, not the caretaker.  

 

Still undecided on OCC (the kids' co-op is doing boxes this year, so we're putting in school supplies and cloth pads) but I'm grateful for all this fabulous info on various groups.   Can't do better if we don't know better.  

[formergothardite]

5 hours ago, Rubaiyat said:

Still undecided on OCC

Would you mind sharing what makes you undecided on the issue? 

And I do not get the people trying to make pets vegan. It makes no sense, these animals were not meant to live that way and if you care about animals you need to provide them with the food they eat. In nature a lot of animals are out there killing other animals. 

[alba]

8 hours ago, Trynn said:

Fair warning: don't donate to world vision unless you want mail. A LOT of mail. They're probably a good organization, but I got turned off by all the mail they sent me.

As a vegetarian, I am horrified at the idea of making my cat do likewise. In fact, I spend extra money on food so that she can have real meat rather than meat by product.

I've read that there is a responsible way to do vegetarian for cats, but I personally remain unconvinced.

 

Cats are obligate carnivores because there are certain essential amino acids (ie proteins they can only get from food and can't synthesise themselves) an vitamins that aren't available in plant foods. So in theory all you'd need to do is create a cat food that has these amino acids in it from non-meat sources (possibly lab-grown), in a similar way to how you can create vegan vitamin B12 supplements or vegetarian hard cheese.

However, cats' digestive tracts are also much shorter than omnivores' or herbivores', because their diet is much lower in fibre, so a vegetarian cat diet would have to address that issue to ensure that the nutrients are adequately absorbed.

So, yes, it's theoretically possible to fed a cat a vegetarian diet, but not something I would be willing to risk with my own pet. Considering that I eat predominantly whole foods, as that is what my body is evolved to digest, why would I not also feed my cat the food its body has evolved to digest most effectively?

[Mercer]

Forcing a pet that is naturally an obligate carnivore to eat a vegan or vegetarian diet drives me crazy. I understand that it isn't easy to feed your pet meat if you have strong beliefs against consuming meat yourself, but what I don't  understand is why you would insist on having a dog or cat anyway rather than, say, a rabbit or guinea pig. If you don't want to feed your pet meat, get a pet that doesn't need a meat-based diet, rather than trying to conform your pet's nature to your beliefs.

ETA: And we've had both rabbits and guinea pigs turned in at the animal shelter where I volunteer, so it isn't an adopt versus shop issue. You may have to wait a little longer, but it's fully possible to get a non-carnivore animal companion from a shelter or rescue.

[Trynn]

They did have rabbits at the shelter I got my cat. I thought about it, but I know how to take care of a cat. I do not have time to learn to take care of a rabbit, plus they tend to be more social than cats. I've read you should get two rabbits, and I just don't want to deal with multiple

[tankgirl]

I found the other two sites, I used others to stuff doing OCC with

Issues 
http://ugandaradionetwork.com/a/story.php?s=39666

http://republic-of-gilead.blogspot.ca/2013/10/thoughts-on-operation-christmas-child.html


But this one, while your box might be ok, remember, is the country your gift is going to, going to have the washing capabilities and the social ability to store, wash and care for the cloth pads? Some cultures have taboos about washing the cloth where it is visible, most groups send them in washable bags. Its not as simple as it seems.

You have good desire have you thought about working with a group like this instead?http://www.daysforgirls.org/blog

Sadly the link about the Mexican group who was forced to pay more on shipping then the items value is gone now

[Granwych]

10 hours ago, Trynn said:

They did have rabbits at the shelter I got my cat. I thought about it, but I know how to take care of a cat. I do not have time to learn to take care of a rabbit, plus they tend to be more social than cats. I've read you should get two rabbits, and I just don't want to deal with multiple

Most rabbit rescues require you to house the bunnies inside.  I don't know about a local humane society, though.  The one nearest me has offered bunnies, guinea pigs, rats, and various exotic birds for adoption.