Confessions of a CF Husband - Trisha "close to dying"

[mockingbird]

I actually tend to agree with the more inclusive definition of fundie you give. I brought up a blogger here once though (now I don't even remember who) who was pro-life, anti-gay, spanked her toddlers, etc etc and was told she didn't count as a fundie because that was just regular Christian in the south. I figured my lack of Christianity made it hard to distinguish between the types, so I'm actually glad to hear that others have a more liberal definition of fundie than just the extreme cases we most often discuss here.

At least with relation to FJ, I would usually consider the fundy vs. fundy-lite classification to be a cultural one. I often hear people calling certain families or bloggers fundy-lite because they have relaxed rules compared to the extremists we talk about so that's who I think of when I think fundy-lite (for example, the Muncks - the family of the girl who broke off a Maxwell engagement - seemed fundy-lite culturally). However, in terms of beliefs, I agree with the more inclusive definition.

[Buzzard]

Are they really pro-life? They put Tricia's life at risk to have their daughter. Tricia's life is so worthless that all the known risks were irrelevant in order for her to carry her fetus?

There is no guarantee things would have been different had she not carried her pregnancy, but really, what value did they place on the existing life in order to give birth?

Pro-life is pro-LIFE, all life. Having a child was given far more precedence than preserving the life that already existed; the life that was already fragile and needed the medical community to support.

Yes, they love their daughter. Yes, they are decent people and their motives aren't entirely twisted. But, I'll never believe they're truly pro-life when they flat out chose the life of the fetus over the life of the mother.

My cousin and her husband tried to get pregnant for years, they were both getting "up in age" (pushing 40). She managed to concieve, and at a very early appointment (first trimester) the OB found a bump. She was diagnosed with a very aggressive form of breast cancer. They went to all kinds of doctors, just about everyone said that she needed to aggressively treat the cancer, and that the chemo/surgery/radiation/whatever would likely cost her the pregnancy. If the fetus survived the treatment it would have significant issues and termination was the suggested course. HE refused - she did as he said. HIS ability to have a child was more important, and these doctors were wrong. The original doctors refused to treat her and she found other doctors, they said the same thing - the treatment is inadvisable during pregnancy and you will not survive. God knows best, right? He wouldnt have blessed them with this pregnancy at this very moment of their lives unless it was the right thing to do.

She declined all treatment. The baby was born healthy by C section at 7 months, one day after they determined his lungs were strong enough. My cousin's asshat husband had his son. My cousin's C section continued into a double mastectomy and some lymph node something. She began infusions immediately, lived 8 months, and died without ever being strong enough to take her baby for a walk in his stroller.

My card to her husband was a CVS condolence card that said simply "I told you." We are FB friends and I tolerate his pro komen postings (he just finished up the walk) but we havent spoken since she was diagnosed and I screamed to treat her.

"Pro Life" is, indeed, a misnomer. "Anti abortion" is the true name. When the contents of the womb are more important than the woman you are not "pro life." Would the decision to abort a wanted child to save your life be a tragic one? Absolutely, but just because a decision is hard doesnt mean that it is wrong. Doing nothing is not allowing god to be in control. God put all those doctors there warning her. God gave her family (ok, it was just me, everyone else said it was their decision) telling her she was a fucking moron. God gave her the choice to save herself. She chose to die, to give her husband what he really wanted - a son.

I see the same thing going on here. The fetus is of more worth than living woman. Whats that old saying? "A bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush?" Old sayings usually hang around for a reason. Value what you have, the future is not guaranteed. Take care of that which exists and leave the future to reveal itself as it may.

So, in short, fuck you, Nathan. Fuck you for letting your wife suffer. Fuck you for being selfish and valuing a fetus over a woman who CHOSE to be with you.

[BelieveinScience]

I'm sorry about you cousin, Buzzard

[Witsec7]

I'm so sorry for your loss Buzzard and I admire your restraint.

[Buzzard]

I'm so sorry for your loss Buzzard and I admire your restraint.

I told her that I considered her actions suicide (which is a sin, I believe) back when she made the decision. I'm pretty much over it now. It just infuriates me that people continue to behave in this manner while screaming from their soap box to save teh baybeez at all costs and they're totes kool in the fundie world. I disliked him from the time she married him (my family is jewish, he's full on baptist) not because he wasnt jewish, but because he's a douche.

[Emme]

I told her that I considered her actions suicide (which is a sin, I believe) back when she made the decision. I'm pretty much over it now. It just infuriates me that people continue to behave in this manner while screaming from their soap box to save teh baybeez at all costs and they're totes kool in the fundie world. I disliked him from the time she married him (my family is jewish, he's full on baptist) not because he wasnt jewish, but because he's a douche.

I wish I could hug you. I'm so sorry.

[Buzzard]

I wish I could hug you. I'm so sorry.

I totally didnt mean to derail the thread! I'm good, thanks. This was about 3 years ago so its pretty well in the past.

[devilsadvocate]

Would the decision to abort a wanted child to save your life be a tragic one? Absolutely, but just because a decision is hard doesnt mean that it is wrong. Doing nothing is not allowing god to be in control. God put all those doctors there warning her. God gave her family (ok, it was just me, everyone else said it was their decision) telling her she was a fucking moron. God gave her the choice to save herself. She chose to die, to give her husband what he really wanted - a son.

What happened to your cousin is beyond a doubt shitty and I would wish that on absolutely no one. It sounds like you're pretty angry that your cousin didn't listen to you and abort. I'm sure that I'd feel horrible too if someone I loved was dying and they weren't doing something that had a chance of saving them.

However, I do think that your family was right that it should be their decision, not yours and not the doctors' decision. Whenever cancer occurs, there is no guarantee that it can be cured and will never come back. It's quite possible that if you had convinced her to have an abortion and she had aggressive treatment, the cancer might still have recurred and ultimately killed her. Perhaps she would have felt worse if she lost that one chance to have a child in addition to everything else the cancer took. I suspect that even though you keep referring to the child as "his son", that your cousin cared about their child too - and perhaps it was some solace to her that the child would get a chance to live because of her tremendous sacrifice.

Even if she chose to allow her husband to influence that decision - it was her choice to be with him and her choice to go along with what he said.

(And I hope you realize I'm not trying to be unkind with this post. I just wanted to suggest another way to look at things.)

[2xx1xy1JD]

My cousin and her husband tried to get pregnant for years, they were both getting "up in age" (pushing 40). She managed to concieve, and at a very early appointment (first trimester) the OB found a bump. She was diagnosed with a very aggressive form of breast cancer. They went to all kinds of doctors, just about everyone said that she needed to aggressively treat the cancer, and that the chemo/surgery/radiation/whatever would likely cost her the pregnancy. If the fetus survived the treatment it would have significant issues and termination was the suggested course. HE refused - she did as he said. HIS ability to have a child was more important, and these doctors were wrong. The original doctors refused to treat her and she found other doctors, they said the same thing - the treatment is inadvisable during pregnancy and you will not survive. God knows best, right? He wouldnt have blessed them with this pregnancy at this very moment of their lives unless it was the right thing to do.

She declined all treatment. The baby was born healthy by C section at 7 months, one day after they determined his lungs were strong enough. My cousin's asshat husband had his son. My cousin's C section continued into a double mastectomy and some lymph node something. She began infusions immediately, lived 8 months, and died without ever being strong enough to take her baby for a walk in his stroller.

My card to her husband was a CVS condolence card that said simply "I told you." We are FB friends and I tolerate his pro komen postings (he just finished up the walk) but we havent spoken since she was diagnosed and I screamed to treat her.

"Pro Life" is, indeed, a misnomer. "Anti abortion" is the true name. When the contents of the womb are more important than the woman you are not "pro life." Would the decision to abort a wanted child to save your life be a tragic one? Absolutely, but just because a decision is hard doesnt mean that it is wrong. Doing nothing is not allowing god to be in control. God put all those doctors there warning her. God gave her family (ok, it was just me, everyone else said it was their decision) telling her she was a fucking moron. God gave her the choice to save herself. She chose to die, to give her husband what he really wanted - a son.

I see the same thing going on here. The fetus is of more worth than living woman. Whats that old saying? "A bird in hand is worth more than two in the bush?" Old sayings usually hang around for a reason. Value what you have, the future is not guaranteed. Take care of that which exists and leave the future to reveal itself as it may.

So, in short, fuck you, Nathan. Fuck you for letting your wife suffer. Fuck you for being selfish and valuing a fetus over a woman who CHOSE to be with you.

1. What happened to your cousin is heart-breaking.

There was a similar story on A Baby Story this morning, and I was just bawling by the end (and late for work).

2. I agree that the life of the mother should be given priority. Those are my personal views as a woman, and also my religious views as a Jew (since Judaism REQUIRES an abortion in these circumstances.)

3. That said, I'm also pro-choice - even when someone makes choices that would go against my personal or religious views. If she was mentally competent to make the choice, then I think it needs to be respected as being her wishes even if her decision may have hastened her death.

I wouldn't wish that particular choice on anyone, but I think it's theoretically possible for your cousin or Trish or another woman to think: "I have a disease that may very well kill me, I don't know what the future will bring, I want to be a mother, and this pregnancy may be my only chance. If I end up dying, at least I'll have had a chance to become a mother first."

I disagree in every way possible with those that would deny ALL women the ability to make that choice. I cannot, however, take away the choice from the women themselves who are in this horrible, tragic position.

[princessjo1988]

This is a conversation that hits very close to home - my cousin has just been diagnosed with stage 3 non-hodgkins lymphoma - and she is just over 21 weeks pregnant. When she was first diagnosed, they thought she might have had the more severe Burkitt's, in which case the baby would not have survived. Thankfully, whilst still troubling, the survival chances for both her and bub are improved given the new diagnosis - and they are aiming for 30 weeks at this point.

I understand why she made the decision she made - she had waited a long time for this baby. And with all the risks, she wants to give her child and herself the best chances of survival. I respect her choice, and I would have respected her choice as well, if it had have been Burkitt's, and the pregnancy had to be ended.

Whilst abortion isn't for me (unless if a pregnancy would have continued it would have killed both me & baby), I recognise that it needs to be an option. Things aren't black and white regardless of how much we wish them otherwise.

[Deleted03]

This is a conversation that hits very close to home - my cousin has just been diagnosed with stage 3 non-hodgkins lymphoma - and she is just over 21 weeks pregnant. When she was first diagnosed, they thought she might have had the more severe Burkitt's, in which case the baby would not have survived. Thankfully, whilst still troubling, the survival chances for both her and bub are improved given the new diagnosis - and they are aiming for 30 weeks at this point.

I understand why she made the decision she made - she had waited a long time for this baby. And with all the risks, she wants to give her child and herself the best chances of survival. I respect her choice, and I would have respected her choice as well, if it had have been Burkitt's, and the pregnancy had to be ended.

Whilst abortion isn't for me (unless if a pregnancy would have continued it would have killed both me & baby), I recognise that it needs to be an option. Things aren't black and white regardless of how much we wish them otherwise.

I think there are different levels too, between having the diagnosis in early first trimester versus at 21 weeks, where viability is two weeks away versus several months away.

Buzzard I am so sorry. I feel like this man knew what he was doing and that makes me sick. (reminds me of that UN report I read where the husband just shrugged about not getting his 19yo wife to a hospital to deliver, well you know he can always get another wife. Said that in front of her, if I could only reach through the screen and slice his precious dick away I would have).

I know a couple who is trying to get pregnant. She has MS, pretty bad for her age (she is around 30 yo) she still walks but gets tired very quickly, they got a house on one level for her. She wants to take a chance at having a child. Research shows that in 50% of the case this means MS stops evolving. In the other 50% it gets worse. Yet she wants to take a risk and is trying to get pregnant. Since it has not worked until now, she is getting off her meds, and is barely able to stand. I find it's hard to judge in that case. What if it works? I don't know what it feels like to have MS, I don't know how much of a hope it looks like. I am sure she wants to have children too. Anyway, those are complex situations.

[Buzzard]

What happened to your cousin is beyond a doubt shitty and I would wish that on absolutely no one. It sounds like you're pretty angry that your cousin didn't listen to you and abort. I'm sure that I'd feel horrible too if someone I loved was dying and they weren't doing something that had a chance of saving them.

However, I do think that your family was right that it should be their decision, not yours and not the doctors' decision. Whenever cancer occurs, there is no guarantee that it can be cured and will never come back. It's quite possible that if you had convinced her to have an abortion and she had aggressive treatment, the cancer might still have recurred and ultimately killed her. Perhaps she would have felt worse if she lost that one chance to have a child in addition to everything else the cancer took. I suspect that even though you keep referring to the child as "his son", that your cousin cared about their child too - and perhaps it was some solace to her that the child would get a chance to live because of her tremendous sacrifice.

Even if she chose to allow her husband to influence that decision - it was her choice to be with him and her choice to go along with what he said.

(And I hope you realize I'm not trying to be unkind with this post. I just wanted to suggest another way to look at things.)

Not unkind, I understand. When docs at Sloan Kettering and Dana Farber tell you that you will NOT survive thats a pretty strong statement. Her immediate action MAY have saved her, but that was not a guarantee and she understood that. She also knew that carrying the child would kill her. She was never a strong woman, and he was extremely opposed to abortion (and still is). When I tried to speak to her rationally, she just put him on the phone, and I was met with "why are you making this more difficult?" at every turn. I dont know that she ever really made a decision rationally, just that he was so sure that the doctors were wrong. In the end, yes, it was their decision, and being "pro choice" means that she had the right to choose. I just wish that I was confident that it was truly her informed choice and not one forced upon her for fear that he would leave her if she chose herself over the fetus.

I'm not one to sit by and let people I care about make uninformed decisions. If she had said that she chose it I think I could have accepted that but her answers were always "he says" or "he wants." I dont think I ever heard her say "this is what I want."

I agree there is a difference between nearly viable and this situation. If it were a matter of weeks they would have waited till the baby was viable, taken him, and treated her. By the time he reached viability the cancer had already spread and there was no point, so they waited until they knew the baby would survive and did what they could to save her.

ETA: Yes, I do think the jew in me wanted to awaken the jew in her and remind her that she was required to save herself but she had left her judaism behind and accepted his beliefs.

[browngrl]

Buzzard I am so sorry for your loss.

I've been involved in several cases where the woman was diagnosed with cancer during pregnancy and in other cases where the woman had a life threatening illness (which would almost certainly worsen with pregnancy). These are some of the most emotionally draining cases I have ever been involved in. There never seems to be a good choice. However, IMO, the bottom line is: what is the woman's choice?

Although I might make a different choice if I was in this position- I can usually understand why these women chose what they did . For example: in one case the woman had a very aggressive cancer (as some pregnancy related cancers can be). Her chances of survival were grim EVEN with chemo and radiation and surgery. She chose to continue the pregnancy because as she said "at least one of us might live then". I could understand her logic. Even when I can not understand the woman's choice - it is not my place to tell her what to do. A doctor can only offer information, make sure the woman is competent to choose and to offer support (and refer if they can't offer support). It is sometimes heartbreaking but there it is.

I believe a woman has a right to choose even when she doesn't choose what I would.

[lilwriter85]

From Nate's twitter feed.

I WILL vote according to my beliefs as a Christian in the Word of God. I plead my brothers and sisters to do the same. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O68MByaMVdM …

Praying for our nation this morning. Praying hard.

[crazyforkate]

According to the blog, Trisha has been listed for a second transplant, but even with that things still look pretty bad for her...

[fundiefan]

It probably comes across as me wishing death on her at someone else's expense, but honestly, why does she get a third set of lungs, total, when someone could be waiting for their second? I don't wish her harm, but I am not a fan of second transplants. If she gets lungs, that means, without doubt, that someone else doesn't. Someone who may be waiting on their own second chance.

I don't want her to die. I don't want them to suffer, no matter what I think of them. But, I don't want anyone else to suffer so she can get another shot at live. We aren't cats. We don't get nine lives. One is all most can even fathom. She's hoping for number three. I think it's selfish- and she has every right to be selfish, because we all are about our own lives - but when your life could come at the expense of someone else's...

The waters are far too muddied and I'm truthfully not wishing for a new match for her. I am wishing for a match for everyone, if it were possible. But, since it's not, I wish for a match for someone who is on their second chance, not their third.

[Freyacat]

I don't follow this blog, and I'm curious if they have ever addressed their take on stem cell research that any of you can recall. From what I've read, that might lead to new treatments that could eventually even include repairing organs and reducing the need for transplants. Most fundies don't support it, though. If they oppose research that could reduce the difficulty of getting a needed transplant *and* they are on the waiting list for a second transplant, then yah, that's pretty selfish.

[Koala]

I am just heartbroken for her and the little girl. Truly, I can't imagine knowing you were going to die and leave your baby without a mother.

[Katiebug]

I wouldn't wish that particular choice on anyone, but I think it's theoretically possible for your cousin or Trish or another woman to think: "I have a disease that may very well kill me, I don't know what the future will bring, I want to be a mother, and this pregnancy may be my only chance. If I end up dying, at least I'll have had a chance to become a mother first."

I disagree in every way possible with those that would deny ALL women the ability to make that choice. I cannot, however, take away the choice from the women themselves who are in this horrible, tragic position.

I could see myself deciding to put a pregnancy/baby ahead of my own health. It depends on the circumstances, the disease or condition and the prognosis with different treatment options, and how far along in gestation I was. If I was 20+ weeks and could start treatment while still pregnant, there's no question that I'd keep the baby. If I was 5 weeks and needed immediate aggressive treatment, we have a child already who needs her Mom here, you know? It has to be a brutal decision to make and I think any woman in such a situation needs the right to make the choice that's best for her and her situation.

That's why it pisses me off that the Lawrensons and others want to deny women the chance to make a different decision than the one they made. I think what Tricia did was brave, and was the right thing for her to do, but that doesn't mean other women in similar situations shouldn't be able to make the opposite decision.

[lilwriter85]

I don't follow this blog, and I'm curious if they have ever addressed their take on stem cell research that any of you can recall. From what I've read, that might lead to new treatments that could eventually even include repairing organs and reducing the need for transplants. Most fundies don't support it, though. If they oppose research that could reduce the difficulty of getting a needed transplant *and* they are on the waiting list for a second transplant, then yah, that's pretty selfish.

This is a bit OT, but my boyfriend's mom is a retired occupational therapist and she has worked with people with spinal cord injuries over the years. She has attended conferences where stem cell research is brought up and there is always controversy with some SCI patients who are religious and against stem cell research. There is a documentary called Body of War which is about a guy who was paralyzed in Iraq due to a gunshot wound. He lives in Missouri and he once took on a religious politician against stem cell research ad in a commercial. I agree with you, it is selfish for fundies possibly including Nate and Trisha to be opposed to something that could help them while waiting for a second transplant. I did a quick search to see if they have addressed their take on stem cell research and they haven't. I found a posting from 2008, where Nate does a bone marrow awareness posting and one of his commenters showed that she is against stem cell research.

http://cfhusband.blogspot.com/2008/05/bone-marrow.html

a visual tinkle said...

In Pittsburgh they are starting the Dan Berger Cord Blood Bank. It is a program in which every baby born in the UPMC hospitals will have it's cord blood collected. There will be three options for the families to choose from, 1) Banking for future private use, which will be paid for by the family. 2) Donating the blood to a public bank which is a no cost option. 3) Donating the blood for use in the UPMC research facilities to help find cures for several conditions without out using embryonic stem cells.

There is a lot of hope for cord blood, but I still feel that stem cell research shouldn't be excluded.

[chopstix]

My husband and I had a talk about what we would do if faced with a choice between a fetus I was carrying or my life. My husband was adamant that he would insist that I be saved. He is pretty agnostic, almost athiest, though, and doesn't believe choosing to terminate a pregnancy leads to damnation to hell.

I wonder how long a typical wait is for a double lung transplant.

[Beeks]

My husband and I had a talk about what we would do if faced with a choice between a fetus I was carrying or my life. My husband was adamant that he would insist that I be saved. He is pretty agnostic, almost athiest, though, and doesn't believe choosing to terminate a pregnancy leads to damnation to hell.

I wonder how long a typical wait is for a double lung transplant.

Nate said the average wait is only two weeks, which I find amazing.

I think if I were otherwise healthy and not far into a pregnancy, I'd obviously save my life over a fetus, if I had a terminal illness though and didn't have many quality years left even with an abortion? I don't know what I'd do.

[lilwriter85]

This is a bit OT, but my boyfriend's mom is a retired occupational therapist and she has worked with people with spinal cord injuries over the years. She has attended conferences where stem cell research is brought up and there is always controversy with some SCI patients who are religious and against stem cell research. There is a documentary called Body of War which is about a guy who was paralyzed in Iraq due to a gunshot wound. He lives in Missouri and he once took on a religious politician against stem cell research ad in a commercial. I agree with you, it is selfish for fundies possibly including Nate and Trisha to be opposed to something that could help them while waiting for a second transplant. I did a quick search to see if they have addressed their take on stem cell research and they haven't. I found a posting from 2008, where Nate does a bone marrow awareness posting and one of his commenters showed that she is against stem cell research.

cfhusband.blogspot.com/2008/05/bone-marrow.html

There is a lot of hope for cord blood, but I still feel that stem cell research shouldn't be excluded.

[emmiedahl]

There is a lot of hope for cord blood, but I still feel that stem cell research shouldn't be excluded.

I believe the cells in cord blood are stem cells.

The thing about embryonic stem cells is that they are from fetuses that would have been aborted either way. Even if you are against abortion, why not use that tissue instead of discarding it?

[lilwriter85]

I believe the cells in cord blood are stem cells.

The thing about embryonic stem cells is that they are from fetuses that would have been aborted either way. Even if you are against abortion, why not use that tissue instead of discarding it?[/quote]

I meant to put embryonic stem cells in previous post. I agree with you, on the bolded part. I can't remember the title of the South Park episode where Cartman lobbied for embryonic stem cell research, but that episode despite being a bit crazy brought up good points fetuses that would have been aborted either way.