German Religion Tax

[happy atheist]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/2 ... FN20120926

If I'm understanding this correctly, in Germany (and several other European countries), the government collects a tax if you are Catholic or Protestant and hands that money over to the church. If you don't pay your tax, the church can refuse to let you participate in their services and ceremonies.

On the one hand, I can see this like a health club or something. If I don't pay my membership fees, they don't let me use the pool. But I can also see the other side which is that this makes the church look really fucking greedy. Aren't they supposed to be concerned about souls and such?

This whole concept seems really, really bizarre to me, but then most things about religion do. I just don't get it. I guess that's why I'm an atheist.

[Deleted06]

I hadn't heard about this...it's sure different from how people give to their churches in the USA.

[BravaAmica]

I hadn't heard about this...it's sure different from how people give to their churches in the USA.

Churches in the USA are primairily funded by thithes, ideally all parishoners donate 10% of their pre-tax income to the church. I'm sure big churches have investments or own real estate. I know my church rents to bottom floor to a preschool. (The preschool is unaffiliated with the church, they are merely tenants.)

[Arete]

Yes, some European countries do collect taxes to fund the state religion. Off the top of my head- England, Denmark, Sweeden, Germany and Greece. I believe Holland uses tax money to fund seperate Protestant and Catholic schools.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

Alright, speaking for Germany here... Of course you can still go to church if you don't pay taxes, it's not like they ask for a membership card at the door. Nobody will ask you for a card when you go to confession or to the communion, either. It really only becomes a topic if you want to get married, etc. Couples can get married in church if at least one partner is paying taxes. When I became godmother to my best friend's son, I had to go to my parish (which is not the church that I actually go to, but the one closest to me) and get a letter from them stating that I do indeed still pay church tax. My friend's parish needed that letter before I could officialy be the godmother.

If you were baptised as a child, you automatically start paying church tax as soon as you start making money. A lot of people who never go to church and don't even really believe in God are still in the church because they just can't be bothered with the whole process of leaving it.

In Germany, only Catholics and Lutherans pay church tax.

[Sola]

Yes, some European countries do collect taxes to fund the state religion. Off the top of my head- England, Denmark, Sweeden, Germany and Greece. I believe Holland uses tax money to fund seperate Protestant and Catholic schools.

Technically correct, although here in the UK there isn't a separate religion tax. The Anglican church receives government funding, that funding comes from taxation.

[Coconut Flan]

Judging by the offering figures I see in various church bulletins, very few people in this area tithe. I think it's something that gets preached, but not done very often except maybe by LDS.

[latraviata]

Yes, some European countries do collect taxes to fund the state religion. Off the top of my head- England, Denmark, Sweeden, Germany and Greece. I believe Holland uses tax money to fund seperate Protestant and Catholic schools.

We don't have church taxes here. All schools can apply for government grants provided they meet a number of conditions.

Schools with a religious signature (not only catholics and protestants) and schools other than public schools are dependent on voluntary contributions / funds.

[silverspoons]

My mom lives in Germany a few months out of the year and she attends catholic services almost daily with her German boyfriend and neither pay any sort of tithing or donate money. They both volunteer and do several trips a year to eastern Europe teaching trades and they consider this thier payment.

[Arete]

We don't have church taxes here. All schools can apply for government grants provided they meet a number of conditions.

Schools with a religious signature (not only catholics and protestants) and schools other than public schools are dependent on voluntary contributions / funds.

Thanks for clarifying that latraviata. I knew Holland gave funding (grants), I wasn't sure if it was a specific tax and didn't realized it encompassed other religions. :)

I did some more digging, and apparently all the Nordic countries recognize Lutheranism as the state religion-Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Faroe Islands, etc.

[mirele]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/09/26/uk-germany-catholic-churchtax-idUKBRE88P1FN20120926

If I'm understanding this correctly, in Germany (and several other European countries), the government collects a tax if you are Catholic or Protestant and hands that money over to the church. If you don't pay your tax, the church can refuse to let you participate in their services and ceremonies.

On the one hand, I can see this like a health club or something. If I don't pay my membership fees, they don't let me use the pool. But I can also see the other side which is that this makes the church look really fucking greedy. Aren't they supposed to be concerned about souls and such?

This whole concept seems really, really bizarre to me, but then most things about religion do. I just don't get it. I guess that's why I'm an atheist.

It's not quite up there with indulgence selling (see Johann Tetzel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel) but you'd think the Catholic Church would want to stay away from anything that smacks of selling access to the sacraments.

[saraelise]

In Denmark you pay an automatic church tax, which you can get out of if you're not a member of the church. If you don't pay it you can still attend church, but you can't be married in a church (unless the other person is), or be buried in a church yard. We have non-denominational graveyeards, though, so people are generally fine. Also, if you want your child baptised at least one parent has to be a member of the church.

I'm actually not sure how much of the overall tax goes to the church, it might be as low as the Swedish rate,It's like 5-10% of your taxes or something (we pay like 43-45%), so it's essentially state-officiated tithing, and it's increasingly easy to get out of. Right now, you only have to e-mail your local church office with a copy of your birth certificate and be like "I don't want to be a member of the Danish church" and you're out of the church and don't have to pay the tax. But if you do decide to show up to church one Sunday, nobody is going to ask for your tax forms to check if you're actually paying.

In my experience most people pay the tax, even if they don't go to church or feel particularly religious.

It's all because the church and state isn't seperated. It's just your membership fee made state official, instead of being only between you and the religious institution.

[Effie]

The church tax in Sweden is 1 %, while it's 10 % in El Salvador for example (you pay no church taxes if you are a member of the catholic church in El Salvador, according to my childhood penpal who lives there). I don't pay that extra 1 % since I'm not a member of the Swedish church.

[simplysweet]

Alright, speaking for Germany here... Of course you can still go to church if you don't pay taxes, it's not like they ask for a membership card at the door. Nobody will ask you for a card when you go to confession or to the communion, either. It really only becomes a topic if you want to get married, etc. Couples can get married in church if at least one partner is paying taxes. When I became godmother to my best friend's son, I had to go to my parish (which is not the church that I actually go to, but the one closest to me) and get a letter from them stating that I do indeed still pay church tax. My friend's parish needed that letter before I could officialy be the godmother.

If you were baptised as a child, you automatically start paying church tax as soon as you start making money. A lot of people who never go to church and don't even really believe in God are still in the church because they just can't be bothered with the whole process of leaving it.

In Germany, only Catholics and Lutherans pay church tax.

I am not sure if it is across the board or only in certain states but in mine (Hessen) if you are not able to pay the tax you can donate time to the church as a form of payment. I go to church with my family when I am back home so it is only a few times a year; I have not paid my tax in over 7 years. My mom has paid some for me but not a lot - I have never been refused anything though most everyone in the church knows I am living in America 9 months out of the year. I help out with things around parish when needed and that seems to be enough. I will have to ask my mum if she knows of anyone being turned away from anything.

STT - where are you from, if I may ask?

[FireandBlood]

This whole system (in Germany) derived from compensation payments after war with France in the beginning of the 19.th century. Church property was taken over by state authoritys, who then had to pay for the daily needs of ministry, schools etc. But soon they figured that this was a huge financial issue, and after the revolution of 1848 religious communities were forced to collect special taxes, mainly to support (or relieve) the governental efforts to run the parishes.

Of course this was a chance for catholic and protestant communities to regain some autonomy, and as you can guess they made a lot of money this way. After the first (and second) world war this system was laid down in the constitution and remains there until now, but actually today it's a win-win situation for both the state and the churches: as neither protestant nor catholic church have a finacial administration, they wouldn't be able to collect the money themselves, so state helps out via personal income taxes. In return he keeps 2-4,5% for himself.

As far as I know orthodox, old-catholic and jewish communities recieve this money as well, but not muslim (as they are not taken as a "public body" - the key to all this legal blessings).

Edited due to spelling mistakes

[OkToBeTakei]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... nteractive

Calculate your daily bread in the UK.

Fairly simplified. It would appear that Religion comes under the umbrella of 'Cultural tax' and only appears to be charged to those who earn over £65,000.

But as Sola pointed out it is a different set up here.

[Kitty]

I'm reading this and imagining the outcry that would happen in the US if the federal government were to levy a church tax. Of course, that would be extremely impractical...

[frumpyjumpy]

Being German myself, yes you have to pay Religion Tax from the day you are born. When you are born, and your parents file for your birth certificate they have to state which religion you will have, mostly is catholic or protestant. The only way this is not required is when your parents have left either church before you were born, and they choose to have on your birth certificate non-believer.

When i left Germany the tax was 7%, that was 6 years ago and i don't think much has changed. You can only relieved from this tax when you write a letter to your church and ask to be removed, its take about a year, depending on were you live.

Once you go to school you are put in religious education classes according to what it says on your birth certificate, catholic's into the catholic class, usually taught by a priest or nun. Same for the protestant, now if your parents have filed non-believer on your birth certificate you get to visit a ethics class. Where i grew up we had only 1 boy that didn't have religion and he just got to sit around for 1 hour while we had class.

In some of the bigger cities they are now offering Islam classes for the muslin..there are a lot of Muslims in Germany.

Its true if you want to have a church wedding in Germany both partners must have a faith registered on their birth certificate, and have received whatever ordinances they need to get married.

Oh they even ask you if you have a court wedding what faith you want to have in your marriage certificate... sadly since i didn't leave the catholic faith with a letter mine says catholic....but we put my husbands down as BAPTIST just so they would have to write it down in stead of non-believer lol, they really do not recognize any faith besides the ones that are commmon

[Soldevi]

In Finland we have similar system with Lutheran and Orthodox church, well, actually it is paid for local congregation munincipally. Average income-based tax is 1,33%. I don't pay because I "don't belong to church" as we say it here. Because I am not a member of any Lutheran or Orthodox congregation, I cannot get married in church, they require that both are members. Although, I still got blessing of the marriage in church (my husband wanted to have that ritual) which is almost word-to-word similar to wedding liturgy - only difference is that they don't announce couple to be married but instead say blessings in the end. What else...I cannot be an official god-mother. But no-one asks if you go to church or attend to eucharist (although in spirit one can attend after confirmation which you go through when you are around 15). Not that I miss anything. I am god(less)-mother to my lovely god(less)-son. In Finnish terms are kummitäti and kummipoika and there isn't god involved in words (I prefer kummatäti, meaning odd aunt 8) )

What is peculiar is that we don't have many cemeteries maintained by non-Lutheran organizations. They really have a monopoly in cemeteries. There was and still is time to time a huge debate whether or not non-members should be buried on same price as members. Law was changed and they have to because government aids them in this. But still..there are some congregations where pastors don't treat the deceased as equal as they should. One certain pastor doesn't want to bury non-member on weekends, only weekdays during office hours. For real! And this is BS because non-members rarely want a christian burial. But because of this monopoly thing, they cannot be buried anywhere else. For example, one of the biggest free thinker's association have tried to get land for their nondenominational grave yard for almost a hundred year! But nope. I really hope that there will be a change and soon and cemeteries are handed to munincipal care. Oh, church is required to keep nondenominational area for non-members and such but in many cases it is in poor location. And they don't bury there even non-member if the deceaced hasn't said he wants there. In Finland one is Lutheran until proven otherwise!

[SpeshulTaterTot]

Its true if you want to have a church wedding in Germany both partners must have a faith registered on their birth certificate, and have received whatever ordinances they need to get married.

Incorrect. My birth certificate says nothing about my religion, I just checked it. I do have a baptism certificate, though. If you want a church wedding, it's enough if one partner is in the church. One of my best friends is atheist and recently had a church wedding because it was so important to her husband, who's in the church. He was never confirmed or anything, being baptised was enough. I've never seen any form saying non-believer, either. The little square on all tax forms where it usually says RK for Catholic or EV for Lutheran is just left blank or crossed out, just like the space on marriage certificates is just left blank if you don't want to specify your religion.

I am not sure if it is across the board or only in certain states but in mine (Hessen) if you are not able to pay the tax you can donate time to the church as a form of payment. I go to church with my family when I am back home so it is only a few times a year; I have not paid my tax in over 7 years. My mom has paid some for me but not a lot - I have never been refused anything though most everyone in the church knows I am living in America 9 months out of the year. I help out with things around parish when needed and that seems to be enough. I will have to ask my mum if she knows of anyone being turned away from anything.

STT - where are you from, if I may ask?

I'm from Berlin, but I don't think that's something that changes from state to state. I'm not sure, though. If you're in the US 9 months out of the year, you're not working in Germany, so you're not paying income tax. That's completely different from working in Germany, paying taxes there, and officially leaving the church. Of course you're still in the church if you don't pay taxes because you're unemployed, or a student, or living somewhere else, or whatever other reason there is not to pay taxes in Germany.

[jaynie]

I'm reading this and imagining the outcry that would happen in the US if the federal government were to levy a church tax. Of course, that would be extremely impractical...

It's funny, isn't it? All these countries with an official religion and a governmental church tax that don't give a fuck about religion in general, and then you have the USA where politicians get elected based on how religious they are, people push for Christian beliefs to be taught in public schools, etc etc. and yet the idea of the government having a church tax is unthinkable. Obviously it is unthinkable to some for a good reason (like, I'm not of that religion), but I suspect it would be unthinkable to many a fundie type as well. Funny old world.

[Arete]

I'm very happy having a government mandated church tax unthinkable here, thank-you-very-much.

Let them tithe.

[27randomscribbles]

I almost think I would rather individuals who are of a certain religion and wish to attend said church should either be taxed or tithe. I'd rather that than churches getting tax breaks.

[Arete]

I almost think I would rather individuals who are of a certain religion and wish to attend said church should either be taxed or tithe. I'd rather that than churches getting tax breaks.

A lot of people who attend church tithe. That's the thing, a lot of individual churches are unlikable, but contributing to their income is voluntary. I wouldn't have any problems if the government turned around tomorrow and demanded all religious institutions pay taxes on their incomes. That would take care of the tax break business once and for all. But to tax individuals on behalf of a religious institution? No, no, hell no.

[GiGi_41]

When I lived in Germany with the USAF..I worked for a Germany company. I was given a religious exemption form to fill out so didn't have to pay church tax. I did pay other taxes which qualifed me for kinder payments and my children were able to enroll in the village school.