Activities outside the home? Not for Fundies

[skrmom]

I've noticed none of the fundie children (Zsu's, Maxwells, etc) have any activities outside the home woth their "peer groups". NO cub scouts, baseball, karate, gymnastics etc. As a matter of fact, most of these children have no friends other than their siblings.

[Conuly]

Well, if you have several children it's a simple logistical issue to get them into classes. If each child has one 45 minute class a week within 15 minutes of home that has NO extra practices or activities associated with it, you're still looking at an hour and a quarter, per kid, per week. If you have ten kids, that's pretty much a whole day of your life, every week, doing nothing but shuttling kids around. (And no conflicts? Wow!) Not to mention that all those classes have stuff associated with them that have to be kept track of - special shoes, clothes, supplies. And, of course, these classes are never free. Big families make things like this more difficult. (Not necessarily *impossible*, but difficult.)

At least some of them seem to think that separating kids into age-groups is inherently wrong, and that separating kids from their families implicitly teaches them to reject their families (and god....) later in life, even if you've personally vetted everybody in the group and they all agree with your opinions on everything. However, it's probably not entirely coincidental that this belief conveniently gives you a reason for not doing any activities besides "Even if we could schedule it, we simply can't afford it, not for all of you".

Edit: Also worth considering is the fact that for some families, they might not just be worried about what their kids will learn about the outside world from their friends, but about what their friends will learn about them. I don't want to suggest that EVERY family who chooses to not do outside activities is abusive, because that's far from the truth. However, if you are abusive, isolating your children means people can't find out as easily, and that your children have no way of finding out it's not normal. With some of these families, given how outrageous some of the stuff they post online is (and nobody, ever, in the history of communication has ever been TOTALLY upfront and honest about daily life with their children), you can only imagine what sort of stuff they might feel is risky even to talk about.

[Witsec7]

Well, if you have several children it's a simple logistical issue to get them into classes. If each child has one 45 minute class a week within 15 minutes of home that has NO extra practices or activities associated with it, you're still looking at an hour and a quarter, per kid, per week. If you have ten kids, that's pretty much a whole day of your life, every week, doing nothing but shuttling kids around. (And no conflicts? Wow!) Not to mention that all those classes have stuff associated with them that have to be kept track of - special shoes, clothes, supplies. And, of course, these classes are never free. Big families make things like this more difficult. (Not necessarily *impossible*, but difficult.)

At least some of them seem to think that separating kids into age-groups is inherently wrong, and that separating kids from their families implicitly teaches them to reject their families (and god....) later in life, even if you've personally vetted everybody in the group and they all agree with your opinions on everything. However, it's probably not entirely coincidental that this belief conveniently gives you a reason for not doing any activities besides "Even if we could schedule it, we simply can't afford it, not for all of you".

You have accurately summarized every reason given on the large families FB page. When it boils down to all the criteria being met these parents simply cannot afford outside activities for their kids. Most of them are living very close to the edge attempting to feed a family of 9 or 10 for $300 a month.

[Arete]

The logistics of a family of 4-10 children doing sports or art classes is almost insurmontable without additional adults like grandparents getting into the trenches. Just not enough parents to go around.

Another thing that is really disturbing is that a lot of them discourage the use of public libraries. Public libraries literally opened up new worlds for me, they were FREE, and in my case within walking distance. To see these people so afraid of one of the institutions they should be most proud of, the lending library, is just disheartening.

[ricky_ticky]

The logistics of a family of 4-10 children doing sports or art classes is almost insurmontable without additional adults like grandparents getting into the trenches. Just not enough parents to go around.

Another thing that is really disturbing is that a lot of them discourage the use of public libraries. Public libraries literally opened up new worlds for me, they were FREE, and in my case within walking distance. To see these people so afraid of one of the institutions they should be most proud of, the lending library, is just disheartening.

Public schools also offer free and low-cost after school activities for students. My son just started middle school (6th grade,) where he's interested in reading club, chess club and drama club. All free, since the reading club gets their books from the library. Putting kids in public school would enable them to have special activities even if parents can't afford lessons. Oh, but we know well the dangers and evils of publik skool.

[Conuly]

The logistics of a family of 4-10 children doing sports or art classes is almost insurmontable without additional adults like grandparents getting into the trenches. Just not enough parents to go around.

Another thing that is really disturbing is that a lot of them discourage the use of public libraries. Public libraries literally opened up new worlds for me, they were FREE, and in my case within walking distance. To see these people so afraid of one of the institutions they should be most proud of, the lending library, is just disheartening.

Well, they're government-run institutions that might open up new worlds for their children. And smelly poor people hang out there, because they're free!

Public schools also offer free and low-cost after school activities for students. My son just started middle school (6th grade,) where he's interested in reading club, chess club and drama club. All free, since the reading club gets their books from the library. Putting kids in public school would enable them to have special activities even if parents can't afford lessons. Oh, but we know well the dangers and evils of publik skool

Not all schools have funding for many clubs and teams right now, unfortunately. This is something that does vary by area.

[lilwriter85]

I think the lack of activities for fundies outside the home is due to logistics and finances. Some smaller fundie families that have 5 to 8 kids might be find ways for their kids to be involved in activities outside the home. Some youth or rec sports leagues will give fee discounts if more than one child from a family is enrolled in a league. Siblings who are close in age can sometimes play in the same teams or divisions, sometimes logistics problems would be solved there. There is a dance school in my area that also does sibling group discounts.

I knew a fundie lite family who only had three sons and the boys played in sports leagues and took music lessons. If they had more than three kids, I doubt that they would've had their kids in outside activities. With ZsuZsu, she has stated that she doesn't trust a lot of people with her kids. She wouldn't be ok with dropping her kids off at practices or classes. She would never let her girls do stuff ballet or other types of dance because of modesty reasons. Even if Zsu was a bit laid back, money would be the key factor in not allowing her kids to do activities outside the home.

[Miggy]

My experience based on marrying into a family with many fundies & fundy-lites;

1) No sport because competition is bad. (All the kids do swimming lessons but they never actually go to the pool, a lake or a beach to swim for fun.)

2) No ballet or gymnastics because leotards are bad.

3) No activities like scouts or guides because the heathen children might lead their children astray.

4) Siblings should be best friends and there is no need to do social activities with other kids. Not all parts of the family are as strict on this one. Some are happy for their kids to mix with other Christian home schoolers with the same beliefs and values.

5) Money is to be spent carefully. Rent, electricity and other bills are important. Food should be bought as cheaply as possible, usually by going to the markets after they have officially closed and buying up the damaged produce as the agents drop their prices to try and clear the stuff. Clothes come second hand from people at church or as gifts from family members. Activities like sport, scouts or ballet are luxuries and don't fit in the budget. All excess money is donated to Christian ministries.

6) All my fundy relatives are really bad at time management and they always run late. Sport, dance, music, scouts and other activities require you to be there on time. (They always say it is hard getting lots of kids ready and out the door. I have suggested they start getting ready earlier but apparently I know nothing.)*

7) Fundies do not ask other people to help. If I can't get my kids to places they need to go I ring friends and ask for help. I regularly ask for help with sport. We often swap kids with friends just to make things work more easily. If my fundy relatives can't get there kids places then they don't go. They don't trust other people, even family, to take their kids anywhere.

*Family anecdote: My children know that when Dad say we are leaving at a certain time, that is the time he will be starting the car. People not in the car are left behind so my kids have grown up very aware of being on time. My fundy-homeschool nephew stayed with us and my husband said "We are leaving now." My nephew went in to have a shower and my husband drove off without him. My nephew was locked out of the house (we live in an old farmhouse and the bathroom is in a separate building to the main house) with no money and no phone and had to walk into town and find me at work. I don't think it has helped him to run on time but it has taught him that my husband means what he says.

[Conuly]

I think the lack of activities for fundies outside the home is due to logistics and finances. Some smaller fundie families that have 5 to 8 kids might be find ways for their kids to be involved in activities outside the home. Some youth or rec sports leagues will give fee discounts if more than one child from a family is enrolled in a league. Siblings who are close in age can sometimes play in the same teams or divisions, sometimes logistics problems would be solved there. There is a dance school in my area that also does sibling group discounts.

I knew a fundie lite family who only had three sons and the boys played in sports leagues and took music lessons. If they had more than three kids, I doubt that they would've had their kids in outside activities. With ZsuZsu, she has stated that she doesn't trust a lot of people with her kids. She wouldn't be ok with dropping her kids off at practices or classes. She would never let her girls do stuff ballet or other types of dance because of modesty reasons. Even if Zsu was a bit laid back, money would be the key factor in not allowing her kids to do activities outside the home.

In addition to group discounts, it may be possible to arrange a special discount on the grounds that you help out in the office or something like that. And for scheduling, with kids close in age you might try to put them in the same class as much as possible.

However, those both require luck and, frankly, people skills (and in the case of helping out for a discount, which my family has done, it requires *time*. It's one thing when your two kids are 16 and 13 and both capable of getting around by themselves, quite another when none of your children is older than 9 and all need to be ferried with you wherever you go.) Be honest here, the specific families mentioned, Zsu's family? You really think they have the ability to get a discount from anybody by asking nicely? (Quite aside from the fact that some people think it's a matter of pride not to ask for help. Well, outside classes aren't the be-all and end-all of childhood, but when it comes to things like good food for the children I think it's really a little irrational.)

[Miggy]

A lot of sporting businesses in our area really love home schoolers because they want to use the facilities during school hours. They are prepared to offer them discounts because any money is better than none. I know the local tennis club and ten pin bowling centre have home school competitions during school hours. Ten pin bowling is easy for home school groups as they can just put each age group together on a lane. All the family can play at one time but with a suitable level of competition. (Several of my friends who home school are involved in this competition.)

My fundy relatives would NEVER get involved in this because (1) it is a competition and competition is bad and (2) it requires you to be at the bowling centre at 10am and out by 12noon. (Local high schools use the centre for sport in the afternoons.) No chance of families that like to sleep in and always run late getting anywhere by 10am.

[CrazySister]

Fundies I've known were very much like Zoo - very VERY few people were allowed to watch their kids because everyone else is probably a child molestor. So they limit the kids' contact with the outside world in general. It's interesting that I don't recall ever once hearing about the time logistics of it (although I can understand how that becomes an issue); it was always "the teacher might be a perv and kidnap my kid right from under me" mentality.

[YPestis]

Fundies tend to be isolationist about their children. They homeschool because they don't want to expose their children to outsiders who can pass on things that they don't approve of. I don't believe the fundies we talk about on the boards would consider letting their children to engage in outside activities like sports and clubs. For more mainstream large families, as others noted, the cost and logistics makes it prohibitive. They probably have to limit the activities of each child. It's the downside of large families. Each person may need to sacrifice something because of limited resource and time. I don't think it's good or bad that large families limit their activities. But I think it's unhealthy if parents do so in order to limit exposure to alternative ideas.

[VaSportsMom]

There were 3 fundy girls on my sons soccer team last fall. The league even made an exception allowing the youngest to play in the same age bracket as her sisters but they lasted less than 2 weeks. The biggest issue was their long skirts caused them problems but they also got really upset any time any of the male players bumped them or just got in "their space" in general. It was just sad to watch.

[FloraDoraDolly]

A lot of sporting businesses in our area really love home schoolers because they want to use the facilities during school hours. They are prepared to offer them discounts because any money is better than none. I know the local tennis club and ten pin bowling centre have home school competitions during school hours. Ten pin bowling is easy for home school groups as they can just put each age group together on a lane. All the family can play at one time but with a suitable level of competition. (Several of my friends who home school are involved in this competition.)

My fundy relatives would NEVER get involved in this because (1) it is a competition and competition is bad and (2) it requires you to be at the bowling centre at 10am and out by 12noon. (Local high schools use the centre for sport in the afternoons.) No chance of families that like to sleep in and always run late getting anywhere by 10am.

So "Duggar time" is normal in fundieland? I come from a family that's always at least five minutes early for everything. We all go nuts if it looks like we might be late. We would never function in that milieu.

[Miggy]

So "Duggar time" is normal in fundieland? I come from a family that's always at least five minutes early for everything. We all go nuts if it looks like we might be late. We would never function in that milieu.

We call it "home school time" and I thought it was hilarious when I first saw the Duggars to see they were the same. It is amazing how many people will make allowances for large families. I don't see having lots of kids as an excuse for being late. You should know how long it takes to get ready and allow that much time. I caused havoc in the family when I insisted on being on time for everything and on routine for my kids. I have regularly turned up to visit relatives and had to wake them up. I have also gone out to restaurants and ordered for my children and been well into dessert before the rest of the family have shown up. I refused to wait if it meant compromising my childrens bedtime. (My eldest had Aspergers and ADHD and breaking routine causes major problems!)

[OkToBeTakei]

:lol: Mr Miggy sounds like my kind of guy . Love that story.

What saddens me the most about this bunch of self-righteous, selfish fuckwits. Is the fact that one of them may actually have birthed the next Roger Federer or Pavarotti. Or you know just the very fact that they deny their children the chance to try. To find something they may love for life.

But that obviously matters not. I wonder how many fundie kids in 20 years will think, if even just briefly, as much as I love my siblings my life would have been richer coming from a smaller gaggle.

[luckystone]

Well, if you have several children it's a simple logistical issue to get them into classes. If each child has one 45 minute class a week within 15 minutes of home that has NO extra practices or activities associated with it, you're still looking at an hour and a quarter, per kid, per week. If you have ten kids, that's pretty much a whole day of your life, every week, doing nothing but shuttling kids around. (And no conflicts? Wow!) Not to mention that all those classes have stuff associated with them that have to be kept track of - special shoes, clothes, supplies. And, of course, these classes are never free. Big families make things like this more difficult. (Not necessarily *impossible*, but difficult.)

I knew a family with 10 kids (not fundie) when I was young and they did heaps of activities and until reading your post I didn't realise how hard it must have been. I live in a pretty small town so I kept bumping into them at sports or other activities (they had a girl in my age group, so I'd be on a team with her or something and realise she'd have at least 4-5 siblings at any event, also the parents would generally help out and get involved in the management of whatever it was). This was over 10 years ago but last year I took up a new sport and lo and behold, two of the kids from that family were there (one is about 23 and the other nearly 30, not living together or anything, I guess they just became used to doing the same activities). I just remembered that from your post - they must have been very organised, I think putting 4-5 kids in the same activity though and having the parents participate too probably helped, there was also a 20-year gap between the kids.

Anyway the main reason fundies don't do it is because they don't want outside exposure, even to other Christians.

[clibbyjo]

Many of fundies I know from homeschooling are all very poor. They usually do free things only, so that means park days,if they can afford gas that week. There was one family with 6 kids and she was always complaining everything cost too much. The library had free homeschool classes and she complained the $1 cost of materials was too much. If you cannot afford $1 for a class, you really shouldn't be having more kids now should you? God is not providing if you can't scrape together one dollar for materials.

I don't see how someone with more than 4 kids could possibly afford or just transport their kids to activities. I have 3 kids.The oldest has swimming 6 times a week, fencing 2 times a week. Girl has acting 1 time,piano(1 time) and hockey 3-5 times a week. Little has guitar (1 time)and swimming 4 times a week. This is just evenings and doesn't include fencing/swimming competitions and travel to other states for hockey. I cannot imagine finding the time or money to drive the kids anywhere else. Both dh and I drive someone somewhere everyday of the week,year round. I suppose if you have 6 kids and you make them all do the same sport then it could work.

[bananacat]

There were 3 fundy girls on my sons soccer team last fall. The league even made an exception allowing the youngest to play in the same age bracket as her sisters but they lasted less than 2 weeks. The biggest issue was their long skirts caused them problems but they also got really upset any time any of the male players bumped them or just got in "their space" in general. It was just sad to watch.

Yeah, this illustrates the true reason for long skirts-only for fundie girls and women. It's done to limit their options and restrict them. This is why pants were a sign of liberation for women and why fundies are trying to roll back that aspect.

[SisiL78]

We were super poor growing up but there was a local music school that had a program with super discounted music lessons and ballet and other creative movement for very little. Plus, you could come with all the kids and there would be classes going on for a bunch of age groups in the same building simultaneously. The Scouts are great for large families because you can have several kids in a range of ages within the same troupe, or at least in troupes that meet at the same time and place. Lots of community centers will have classes that meet at the same time and often their is a family price without regard for the number of kids. I've seen the schedules at the local JCC and it seems like there are just a few starting times for the kids activities. And they'll give scholarships to most anyone who asks depending on need (without asking for your religious affiliation). I really don't think that with JCCs, YMCAs, libraries, secular community centers, and whatever else that there would be a lack of options. Admittedly, you couldn't have every kid get their first choice of activity and there would still need to be some togetherness, but its better than being locked up in the house.

Its not about money or logistics with these fundies, its about keeping their speshul snowflakes restricted and away from outside influences. The worst thing that could happen is that the kids meet Jacob the Jewish kid, Anita the Buddhist girl, and Mehmet the Muslim boy, and Amanda the Agnostic child and then realize that people of other religions aren't that bad. They might get invited for a play date or a birthday party and then *egads* you can't say no to their going and let them enter the home of a heathen where they will see a functioning and happy family that doesn't abide by silly fundy standards. Even if religion never comes up in conversation the kids will know that the other kid is different and realize that different is not evil. They may develop ideas of their own and reject their parent's fundamentalism.

[lilwriter85]

Some activiites for skirt only fundie girls, is that they could do stuff like crafts classes, vocal lessons, or music lessons. Some hardcore fundies do allow their daughters to do that kind of stuff. I remember Latisha's daughter was taking piano lessons from a lady who attended their church.

[YPestis]

You know, I said previously that some of these super fundie families don't do extracurricular. I'll have to amend that. The Maxwells talk about piano lessons for their children. Later, Christopher did the lessons to save on costs. In general, I think fundies avoid activities that would allow mixing of their children with less fundie children. That said, they don't try to avoid all nonacademic stuff because most fundie parents still remember taking music lessons and such growing up. Even when they try to restrict activities to fundie approved extracurricular, (such as tutoring sessions), it's still limited by costs and logistics. If each child had only two activities to do, and there's five kids who have activities, that's a lot of running around, especially if there are also little ones tagging along! The cost will also pile up quickly. I often wonder if fundie parents come to regret that their own children can't participate in fun things because there just isn't enough money to go around for reach child....?

[CrazySister]

You know, I said previously that some of these super fundie families don't do extracurricular. I'll have to amend that. The Maxwells talk about piano lessons for their children. Later, Christopher did the lessons to save on costs. In general, I think fundies avoid activities that would allow mixing of their children with less fundie children. That said, they don't try to avoid all nonacademic stuff because most fundie parents still remember taking music lessons and such growing up. Even when they try to restrict activities to fundie approved extracurricular, (such as tutoring sessions), it's still limited by costs and logistics. If each child had only two activities to do, and there's five kids who have activities, that's a lot of running around, especially if there are also little ones tagging along! The cost will also pile up quickly. I often wonder if fundie parents come to regret that their own children can't participate in fun things because there just isn't enough money to go around for reach child....?

I hope so, but if they're anything like my mom, it just becomes a matter of "I'm not responsible for your lack of being able to do xyz as a child because I couldn't help the situation we were in. I was a SAHM so it wasn't my fault you couldn't do anything!" :doh: Hopefully not, but sadly I'm guessing the blame game gets played a lot regarding extracurriculars.

[ShadowyOne]

You know, I said previously that some of these super fundie families don't do extracurricular. I'll have to amend that. The Maxwells talk about piano lessons for their children. Later, Christopher did the lessons to save on costs. In general, I think fundies avoid activities that would allow mixing of their children with less fundie children. That said, they don't try to avoid all nonacademic stuff because most fundie parents still remember taking music lessons and such growing up. Even when they try to restrict activities to fundie approved extracurricular, (such as tutoring sessions), it's still limited by costs and logistics. If each child had only two activities to do, and there's five kids who have activities, that's a lot of running around, especially if there are also little ones tagging along! The cost will also pile up quickly. I often wonder if fundie parents come to regret that their own children can't participate in fun things because there just isn't enough money to go around for reach child....?

Who teaches the Duggar kids to screech and caterwaul on their violins, etc.? I don't recall ever seeing an outsider give them lessons, and the quality of their playing would make sense if it is Michelle/J'slaves who do the teaching. My father is proficient at the violin, and my mother at the piano, but neither would have ever dreamed of trying to teach us themselves. We were appropriately sent out for lessons.

[wendy-sparkles]

Who teaches the Duggar kids to screech and caterwaul on their violins, etc.? I don't recall ever seeing an outsider give them lessons, and the quality of their playing would make sense if it is Michelle/J'slaves who do the teaching. My father is proficient at the violin, and my mother at the piano, but neither would have ever dreamed of trying to teach us themselves. We were appropriately sent out for lessons.

One of the Query girls (Mandie?) was shown giving Johannah and Jackson their first violin lesson. I think an elderly woman teaches them piano.