The Great Chick-fil-A Snake Oil "Faith" Hustle

[thoughtful]

I mention the KJV, that is what I grew up with, but the Bible that I read is the NIV (New International Version).

How do you know that one is "the word of God?" How can you claim not to be trying to understand God through the filter of many years of religious tradition?

[Koala]

Most of these fundies could take everything they know about the Bible, pack it into a thimble, and still have plenty of room to spare.

[formergothardite]

Fundies do more to make Christ look bad than the heathens.

I have two questions that were never answered:

How is it not hate to deny a whole group of people (people who are not hurting anyone) equality?

And why did you think I was agaisnt a free society? Your the one that seems to be wanting to force your religion on others. Unless you are willing to admit that you are pro-choice (legally, not in your personal life) and pro-gay marriage (even though it doesn't mesh with your religion you don't believe on forcing your religion on other people)

And please, for the sake of all that is good in this world, just answer the questions and not questions that I didn't ask. Do you know how bad it makes your God look that his followers go out of thier way to avoid giving straight answers about their beliefs?

And I didn't bully you, I looked at your past behaviour here, came up with a guess and reminded you that sort of behaviour is not tolerated here. I didn't donate money to an organization who wants to deny you equality. Now that is being a bully. This is not persecution, this is a debate on a message board.

[Palimpsest]

Thanks for the advice; Lissar! That's why my name is Anxious Girl - I tend to apologize a lot (damn anxiety). I will stop though. I apologize because sometimes I sincerely think I act like a know-it-all (which is why I ask people to correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not asking anybody to pat me on the back; I'm just explaining why I speak/type the why I do here.

Anxious Girl, I'm popping up out of lurkdom to say that I always enjoy your posts! You did say that you are Ok with corrections?

As a fellow history nerd, I have a tiny quibble with your saying that the KJV was "written" by James I. Don't perpetuate Jim Bob Duggar's mistake. :D It has always puzzled me that Fundies pick on the KJV Bible as the "one true word of god."

To be a complete nit-picker I must point out that the KJV was actually commissioned by a not terribly closeted (contemporary knowledge of his orientation and favorites was quite widespread) gay Scottish/English (James IV of Scotland and James I of England) King in an attempt to quiet widespread dissent and disagreement among the various denominations of the time. It wasn't that James was so freaking Godly, it was more that he was following the advice of Parliament and trying to survive as a monarch.

So, in the reign of King James, over 50 people were appointed to examine, retranslate, rework and rewrite the various different contempory versions of the Bible available including, but not limited to, the Great, Geneva and Bishops' Bibles. There is a lot more info here on the history of the KJV. http://www.av1611.org/kjv/kjvhist.html No need to break the link for this one.

So can any FJers tell me why the Fundies are so damn fixed on the KJV Only thing?

[debrand]

When you go out to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free, but you certainly shall not sell her for money; you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her.â€

I posted this and it was ignored. Granted, scareygirl has many questions thrown at her but I'd like her to explain her interpretation of the above verses.

There wasn't just one way to be married in the bible. These verses are from Deuteronomy 21:10-14. God is telling the Hebrews that rape is a means to gain a wife.

I've noticed that conservative and fundie Christians don't actually read their bible. When unpleasant verses are brought to their attention, they cover their eyes and claim that they don't see them. Notice that scareygirl doesn't really address some of the biblical passages we've brought up JosiahW did the same thing. I've encountered muliple conservative Christians who swear they've read their own holy book all the way through but are shocked that such verses exist. I can only conclude that there is some magical force preventing them from really seeing these verses.

Scareygirl, you've probably never actually had to defend your views before. Believe it or not, I understand. The default in America is to be Christian. Most people are Christian and there really is very little public demand that Christians defend their faith. It can be difficult to go from an enviroment where just believing is explanation enough to an enviroment in which you must use logic to defend and explain your faith. However, we do have many Christians on this forum so apparently, using logic is not an antiChristian activity.

[thoughtful]

I posted this and it was ignored. Granted, scareygirl has many questions thrown at her but I'd like her to explain her interpretation of the above verses.

There wasn't just one way to be married in the bible. These verses are from Deuteronomy 21:10-14. God is telling the Hebrews that rape is a means to gain a wife.

I've noticed that conservative and fundie Christians don't actually read their bible. When unpleasant verses are brought to their attention, they cover their eyes and claim that they don't see them. Notice that scareygirl doesn't really address some of the biblical passages we've brought up JosiahW did the same thing. I've encountered muliple conservative Christians who swear they've read their own holy book all the way through but are shocked that such verses exist. I can only conclude that there is some magical force preventing them from really seeing these verses.

Scareygirl, you've probably never actually had to defend your views before. Believe it or not, I understand. The default in America is to be Christian. Most people are Christian and there really is very little public demand that Christians defend their faith. It can be difficult to go from an enviroment where just believing is explanation enough to an enviroment in which you must use logic to defend and explain your faith. However, we do have many Christians on this forum so apparently, using logic is not an antiChristian activity.

Well, there it is again, Scarygirl.

In case it's not connecting for you, I think you are getting these repeated requests to acknowledge these other Bible verses about marriage because you claimed that you were only supporting what the Bible says, and, therefore, were not being hateful.

But the Bible clearly describes many types of marriage, and presents them as acceptable, even desirable or commanded. You haven't said "and I support those, too" or "wow -- I don't support that!"

I know that's why I keep asking.

The "but the Bible says so" answer, often even more arrogantly written as "you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with God" is a sure sign that someone has not really read through the book they defend so hotly, and has not thought about their beliefs thoroughly. Either that, or they understand and love the hateful, vicious parts of it, and want "God said so" to cover for their hatefulness.

"The Bible" is a myriad work full of many texts, that has gone through all kinds of edits and translations. When someone cherry-picks the parts about kindness and charity, and supports those, I can't complain much.

But, when someone like Dan Cathy or the fundies we discuss here only seem to see the parts that condemn, and interpret them as a reason to try to change the laws of a secular country, abuse and restrict their children, or encourage others in denying rights or even killing people, I can't accept that.

If you are really not a hateful person, and are open to learning, think about it. Perhaps listening to some historians, clergy, or other Christians who have rejected the hateful parts of the Bible might be a good thing.

If your belief is strong, and you are determined to remain a Christian, the guidance of good people who have accepted that every word in the Bible can't be true (it contradicts itself all over) can't hurt you.

[Artemis]

Scarygirl:

As far as my believing the bible as the unerring word, I base that on faith. I don't need historical data to prove what is I know in my heart to be true.

Scarygirl, I think you should take the time to read this. It's from John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress: a Christian canon text, respected by evangelicals everywhere. In this part, Christian, the protagonist of the story, is talking to a young man called Ignorance, who is persuaded he is 'in the strait and narrow way' because of what he, like you, 'knows in his heart'

I have quoted only a small part of the conversation, but I suggest you find a copy of the book, read it, and think about what you are saying.

"Here, therefore, they met with a very brisk lad that came out of that country, and his name was Ignorance. So Christian asked him from what parts he came, and whither he was going.

Ignorance: Sir, I was born in the country that lieth off there, a little on the left hand, and I am going to the Celestial City.

Christian: But how do you think to get in at the gate, for you may find some difficulty there?

Ignorance: As other good people do, said he.

Christian: But what have you to show at that gate, that the gate should be opened to you?

Ignorance: I know my Lord’s will, and have been a good liver; I pay every man his own; I pray, fast, pay tithes, and give alms, and have left my country for whither I am going.

Christian: But thou camest not in at the wicket-gate, that is at the head of this way; thou camest in hither through that same crooked lane, and therefore I fear, however thou mayest think of thyself, when the reckoning-day shall come, thou wilt have laid to thy charge, that thou art a thief and a robber, instead of getting admittance into the city.

************ (Small intermission with other conversations)

Christian: That I doubt: for to leave all is a very hard matter; yea, a harder matter than many are aware of. But why, or by what, art thou persuaded that thou hast left all for God and heaven?

Ignorance: My heart tells me so.

Christian: The wise man says, “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool.†Prov. 28:26.

Ignorance: That is spoken of an evil heart; but mine is a good one.

Christian: But how dost thou prove that?

Ignorance: It comforts me in hopes of heaven.

Christian: That may be through its deceitfulness; for a man’s heart may minister comfort to him in the hopes of that thing for which he has yet no ground to hope.

Ignorance: But my heart and life agree together; and therefore my hope is well-grounded.

Christian: Who told thee that thy heart and life agree together?

Ignorance: My heart tells me so.

Christian: “Ask my fellow if I be a thief.†Thy heart tells thee so! Except the word of God beareth witness in this matter, other testimony is of no value.

(And basically, although I like Bunyan very much as a great storyteller, the word of God beareth witness in exceedingly contradictory ways which do not bear examination.) So what you think is of no value. What you feel in your heart or know in your heart is of no value. Only what is written in the bible is of value.

Now the bible comes in two halves - the Old Testament which is the Covenant of Moses, and the story of Christ, who came to transcend the Old Testament and bring in the New Covenant.

Just think about what you are saying. If you believe that the Old Testament and the Laws of Moses are true, and they are what you lust live by, then you must live by all of it, including all of its laws including those about mixed fibres, eating pork, and secluding yourself for mentruation. You must obey all of it, be judged by the law, and have no share in grace given by the Covenant of Christ.

You cannot choose to operate by the Law and the Old Testament insofar as you find it congenial, and then claim the promise of the New Testament when you do not obey its two commandments: Love God, and love your neighbour.

What is written in the New Covenant of Christ is 'Love your neighbour' if you are a follower of Christ, then that is what you do. That does not include denying your neighbour equality under SECULAR laws. In fact, as a true follower of Christ, you should be out there camapaigning for equality for all people no matter what their gender or sexual affiliation.

Instead what you are doing is cherry picking Old Testament laws to deprive people of a right you have because of your personal beliefs 'which you know in your heart' WHICH ARE NOWHERE SUPPORTED BY CHRIST IN THE NEW COVENANT!

The heart, may I remind you, "is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" (KJV)

[deelaem]

Really? Maybe someone should tell the Pearls that.

Here's my question. It's one I want to ask every dogmatic Christian that comes here. What was your purpose in coming here? If you don't want to answer questions directly and back up your opinions with rational arguments, then why are you here?

Still waiting...

[Anxious Girl]

So, scarygirl; going to explain how God is so righteous if 1 of the 10 commandments is not to kill; but He commands people to kill others and commands genocide? I'm waiting for your justification on these 2.

[scarygirl]

Still waiting...

I answered this question several pages back. I am tired, actually, I don't have to keep answering the same questions, but whatever. I have been following the Duggars for a long time and saw mention of this site on the 19 kids TLC forum. I was curious if there were really so many families like the duggars, didn't think it was possible in modern America.

I just so happened to post in a thread talking about a controversial topic. I have also posted in other thread before this one.

[Artemis]

And have you read the Bunyan yet?

" 'Ask my fellow if I be a thief: my heart told me so' "

Prov. 18:2 "A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself."

Simply put, you cannot trust what you think and feel.

Prov. 28:26 "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool..."

Gen. 6:5 "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Jer. 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Prov. 18:1 "Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom."

Prov. 3:7 “Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.â€

Rom. 1:22 “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,â€

Where does Christ say that gay marriage is wrong?

Quote me the exact verse please.

[Vex]

So far you have:

- Claimed I hate God

- Claimed I don't care about women's rights

- Claimed that racism is hateful, but bigotry based on something I cannot control any more than my skin colour is just expressing an 'opinion'

- Claimed that you don't believe I have the right to marry someone I love

And you're saying we're the bullies?

I am so thankful you and your ilk are the vast, almost silent, minority in my country. We have free speech here, too, but people don't use it as a shield while they shout their bigotry from the rooftops. Gay rights might not be as liberal here as they are in some other countries, but we're not actively persecuted and I don't live in a place where Christians with delusions of persecution are the majority.

How does the marriage of two men or two women personally effect or hurt you?

Your views are hurtful to me in the extreme. I don't believe in God (it has nothing to do with my sexuality, I used to be a Christian), but I don't go to forums dedicated to Christianity, filled with Christians, and tell them that they're wrong about their beliefs and that they shouldn't be allowed to pray or have Christian marriages. Why? Because it serves no purpose other than to hurt and upset people.

I'm more than happy to see fundies and people of all religions and walks of life post here - as long as they check their 'I know my religion is right' beliefs at the door and keep their prejudices to themselves.

I apologise to everyone for the personal rant, but it's a subject that cuts deep for me.

[scarygirl]

I posted this and it was ignored. Granted, scareygirl has many questions thrown at her but I'd like her to explain her interpretation of the above verses.

There wasn't just one way to be married in the bible. These verses are from Deuteronomy 21:10-14. God is telling the Hebrews that rape is a means to gain a wife.

I've noticed that conservative and fundie Christians don't actually read their bible. When unpleasant verses are brought to their attention, they cover their eyes and claim that they don't see them. Notice that scareygirl doesn't really address some of the biblical passages we've brought up JosiahW did the same thing. I've encountered muliple conservative Christians who swear they've read their own holy book all the way through but are shocked that such verses exist. I can only conclude that there is some magical force preventing them from really seeing these verses.

Scareygirl, you've probably never actually had to defend your views before. Believe it or not, I understand. The default in America is to be Christian. Most people are Christian and there really is very little public demand that Christians defend their faith. It can be difficult to go from an enviroment where just believing is explanation enough to an enviroment in which you must use logic to defend and explain your faith. However, we do have many Christians on this forum so apparently, using logic is not an antiChristian activity.

I know all about those verses , they trouble me too. They are still not enough for me to not know who my one saving grace is at the end of the day.

[scarygirl]

And have you read the Bunyan yet?

" 'Ask my fellow if I be a thief: my heart told me so' "

Prov. 18:2 "A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself."

Simply put, you cannot trust what you think and feel.

Prov. 28:26 "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool..."

Gen. 6:5 "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Jer. 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Prov. 18:1 "Through desire a man, having separated himself, seeketh and intermeddleth with all wisdom."

Prov. 3:7 “Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.â€

Rom. 1:22 “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,â€

Where does Christ say that gay marriage is wrong?

Quote me the exact verse please.

You asked for the verse, here it is, people can interpret it however they wish.

Leviticus 20:13

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable

[twin2]

You asked for the verse, here it is, people can interpret it however they wish.

Leviticus 20:13

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable

Jesus didn't say that. However, he did say this:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?â€

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.â€

[Guest Anonymous]

You asked for the verse, here it is, people can interpret it however they wish.

Leviticus 20:13

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable

Sweet, we're down to brass tacks, now. I assume you follow all of the other laws that are laid down in Leviticus, then? You don't eat shellfish, or pork, or any unclean animals. You certainly never wear a cotton/poly blend, and you never plant more than one crop in the same field. When you have your period you never touch a man or allow a man to sit where you have sat, so that you don't make him unclean.

Do you also believe that rape victims who are raped in the city but too afraid to cry out for help should be put to death?

If not, then you are cherry picking through the Bible, and you don't have a single leg to stand on in regards to "God says it's wrong" as a justification to deny other people their rights.

[Anxious Girl]

If people can interpret Bible verses however they want; then why should the ridiculous rules of Leviticus be law? How come you're still not answering everybody's questions? Are you waiting for 1 of us to slip up?

[Artemis]

I said where CHRIST says gay marriage is wrong.

CHRIST - you know - the Saviour you follow.

Where does HE say it? Quote me HIS words.

Your verse is from Leviticus, the Pentateuch. It is the law of MOSES.

So as others have said, do you follow all the laws of Moses? If not why not? Why ONLY the statement about homosexuality? Could it possibly be that you are using the word of God to justify your own prejudices?

Have you read this bit?

Matthew 23 vv 27 and 28:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."

Think about it.

[scarygirl]

Jesus didn't say that. However, he did say this:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?â€

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.â€

Is Leviticus not part of the bible? I get accused of ignoring passages, but then others do the same thing and that is okay?

I will fully well admit that it silly of Christians to rally over gay marriage when themselves have lied, been divorced what have you, but even so we have choices to do what is right and what is wrong, and I will freely admit that I fail daily.

[Anxious Girl]

How come you're online and still not answering questions?

[Vex]

I'm just going to come out and say it:

I think that any person who seeks to deny a group of people equal rights in a secular country based on their personal religious beliefs, particularly when it won't effect them negatively but will be of huge benefit to the group seeking those rights, is selfish and cruel.

You're a buffet Christian, picking and choosing the pieces of scripture that you like and applying them to your life, while rejecting those that don't sit well with you. Which is fine - until you claim that you are a bible literalist, hence your rigid interpretation of 'biblical marriage'. You can't possibly deny that's true, when you choose to follow that particular passage in Leviticus, but don't abhor the mixing of fibers, shellfish and so forth.

[Sprocket]

Now the bible comes in two halves - the Old Testament which is the Covenant of Moses, and the story of Christ, who came to transcend the Old Testament and bring in the New Covenant.

Just think about what you are saying. If you believe that the Old Testament and the Laws of Moses are true, and they are what you lust live by, then you must live by all of it, including all of its laws including those about mixed fibres, eating pork, and secluding yourself for mentruation. You must obey all of it, be judged by the law, and have no share in grace given by the Covenant of Christ.

You cannot choose to operate by the Law and the Old Testament insofar as you find it congenial, and then claim the promise of the New Testament when you do not obey its two commandments: Love God, and love your neighbour.

What is written in the New Covenant of Christ is 'Love your neighbour' if you are a follower of Christ, then that is what you do. That does not include denying your neighbour equality under SECULAR laws. In fact, as a true follower of Christ, you should be out there camapaigning for equality for all people no matter what their gender or sexual affiliation.

Instead what you are doing is cherry picking Old Testament laws to deprive people of a right you have because of your personal beliefs 'which you know in your heart' WHICH ARE NOWHERE SUPPORTED BY CHRIST IN THE NEW COVENANT!

The heart, may I remind you, "is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" (KJV)

You win my corner of the internet today. Cake will be provided there.

[scarygirl]

I said where CHRIST says gay marriage is wrong.

CHRIST - you know - the Saviour you follow.

Where does HE say it? Quote me HIS words.

Your verse is from Leviticus, the Pentateuch. It is the law of MOSES.

So as others have said, do you follow all the laws of Moses? If not why not? Why ONLY the statement about homosexuality? Could it possibly be that you are using the word of God to justify your own prejudices?

Have you read this bit?

Matthew 23 vv 27 and 28:

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."

Think about it.

That verse in Matthew was to people who already thought they were holy. People who were holy on the outside, but sinning on the inside. These people condemmed others for doing the exact same things they themselves were doing, only they wore the cloak of being a learned priest.

That verse is no way justifies sin or takes away from from how the bible instructs to live our lives.

My only offense here is first answer in this thread about saying people have a right to their viewpoints, even if it offends others. There are many veiwpoints that offend me, but I accept them. But my acceptanace of a different viewpoint is not going to change my view point and that is the diference.

This thread has dragged out, what eleven pages now? I am not going to say anymore. I have answered questions to the best of my ability.

[Anxious Girl]

That verse in Matthew was to people who already thought they were holy. People who were holy on the outside, but sinning on the inside. These people condemmed others for doing the exact same things they themselves were doing, only they wore the cloak of being a learned priest.

That verse is no way justifies sin or takes away from from how the bible instructs to live our lives.

My only offense here is first answer in this thread about saying people have a right to their viewpoints, even if it offends others. There are many veiwpoints that offend me, but I accept them. But my acceptanace of a different viewpoint is not going to change my view point and that is the diference.

This thread has dragged out, what eleven pages now? I am not going to say anymore. I have answered questions to the best of my ability.

You haven't answered everybody's questions that were asked here on this thread. And I'm not going to give you handouts; as you can go back and search for the unasked questions yourself.

[Vex]

This thread has dragged out, what eleven pages now? I am not going to say anymore. I have answered questions backpedaled and given excuses and non-answers to the best of my ability.

Fixed that for you.