The Great Chick-fil-A Snake Oil "Faith" Hustle

[scarygirl]

No you didn't.

If the question was about biblical marriage and child abuse I answered that.. It toward the end of page 6,

[desertvixen]

OK, The Straw Family has to become a pseudo children's book (in the same vein as Go the Fuck to Sleep), complete with pretty illustrations.

Someone else would have to do the illustrations, unless we're going for the XKCD-look...

[Anxious Girl]

I am against abortion in most cases because by that time a human being that can feel actual pain has already had time to develop.

In the case of BC pills and morning after pill, you are no where near that state as the egg is prevented from attaching to the uterine wall.

scarygirl; can you please answer the bolded?

[scarygirl]

So you lied in your earlier post where you said abortion was between a woman and her god? Or do you mean that you don't approve but still think abortion should be legal?

I didn't lie about anything, my personal view of abortion is not so hot, but I don't approve of standing outside abortion clinics screaming at women over it. It takes two to tango. Abortion is legal. I may not morally agree with it, but it is legal. That is between them and their god.

[Guest Anonymous]

It bugs me when people come in here throwing grenades calling us bullies, God haters, etc.

I never post on fundie blogs. If a fundie doesn't want to read what I have to say, all they have to do is not come to this one tiny corner of the internet. If fundies do come here, they should have read the rules and FAQ and prepared themselves to enter a hostile environment. I don't hate God, and I don't hate most people. I admit I have nothing but contempt for the child beaters, the woman abusers, and the ones that post women's names and photos on their blogs because those women chose to have an abortion.

I snark, I get mad, I yell, I swear. But I also have compassion for the innocents who have no choice about their upbringing. Fundamentalism hurt me in a lot of ways, it has hurt so many people. I don't want anyone to go through what I went through, and I don't want anyone to go through the more extreme fundie grist mill. It grinds exceedingly fine. This is a snark website, not a support forum, but there is support here. We gossip and fight but we also analyze and discuss. We force one another to examine our prejudices and more posters than I can list inspire me to be a better human being.

Free Jinger is much more than a snark forum, it's a community. A fighty, bitey, overwhelmingly feminist, incredibly varied, incredibly caring one, all fundie aspersions to the contrary.

So basically, scarygirl, you don't have a clue what you're on about, and you can feel free to get the fuck out if you don't want to be here.

[Anxious Girl]

I didn't lie about anything, my personal view of abortion is not so hot, but I don't approve of standing outside abortion clinics screaming at women over it. It takes two to tango. Abortion is legal. I may not morally agree with it, but it is legal. That is between them and their god.

What if people who don't believe in God want to get an abortion? And Lissar, you're awesome!

[Koala]

There is a huge difference between a simple smack on the bottom and beating someone. Beating someone is having a parent get so mad and so out of control that you are having to hold the door with your body to stop them from coming at you. I know what this like, been there, done that.

Can you show me the verse that advises parents to give a "simple smack on the bottom"?

The verses I've read actually specifically mention beating. They say nothing about a smack on the bottom:

Proverbs 23:13-14

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Care to defend your despicable book now?

[debrand]

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 When you go out to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive, and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free, but you certainly shall not sell her for money; you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her.

This is one of the rules that god gave the Hebrews.

Imagine you are stolen from your home by a soldier who has murdered your entire family. He gives you a month to mourn and then, whether you wish it or not, he takes you as his wife. In other words, he rapes you. If he...not you...decides to get rid of you, out you go. What do you think the word, humbled means in the last sentence? Usually, it indicates rape. So, god is okay with rape as a way to gain a bride.

[thoughtful]

There is a huge difference between a simple smack on the bottom and beating someone. Beating someone is having a parent get so mad and so out of control that you are having to hold the door with your body to stop them from coming at you. I know what this like, been there, done that.

I'm sorry you experienced that.

I don't believe that any hitting should be used in our interactions with others, regardless of age or relationship. So my opinion may not hold water for you. But I'll try.

Again, having read more of FJ might have helped you out in understanding some of the outrage you'll see here about the "rod." Most of the Christian leaders, bloggers, schools, etc. who advocate corporal punishment are not recommending a "simple smack on the bottom," and they will be the first to tell you that they don't want an adult going after a child in a rage.

They generally prescribe a carefully planned, calmly administered, repetitive application of pain -- a "thump" or pinch for infants, repeated switching and whipping for babies, toddlers, and small children, stronger weapons and restraint for older children.

Going at it until the child submits his will (whatever the fuck that means), setting up situations in which you know the child will fail, etc. are all part of this.

Putting "Michael Pearl" into the search function here is a good start to learning more.

Are there child-beaters, gay-haters and other nasty people among the non-religious? Sure. But it adds a layer of outrage to the ugliness when people claim the Bible backs them up, and that they have the only right path.

And, as was pointed out in the show discussed in this thread, being a Christian institution sometimes protects abusers from the law:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11921

edited for clarity

[thoughtful]

The hell, man, those things actually exist?

Well, at least that one does (did?)!

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Well, at least that one does (did?)!

I'm trying to figure out what for. It looks like a Zamboni.

[Koala]

I know what the bible says about marriage in Genesis. The other verses mentioned talked about treating women as prostitutes and property. That was how women were treated period, not necessarily because of God or religion. That isn't how Jesus saw women. When Jesus met the woman at the well, he spoke to her when no one else would.

—Genesis 1:27 (NKJV)

“And the LORD God said, ‘It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.’ Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: ‘This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.’ Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.â€

—Genesis 2:18-25 (NKJV)

And yes, there are verses about sparing the rod. There is a difference between discplining a child with a swat on the butt and beating them black and blue into submission. A light swat on the butt never hurt anyone. Continually beating a child within an inch of his life for the mere act of breathing is wrong.

Here are some Biblical principles for marriage. Since you like Genesis we'll start there:

Genesis 16:3

So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.

1 Kings 11:3

And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

1 Corinthians 7:1

Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.

Exodus 21:2-9

If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. But if the servant declares, I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free, then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life. If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter.

[scarygirl]

scarygirl; can you please answer the bolded?

Be fruitful and multply goes back to the book of Genesis. It was God's directive to Adam and Eve as they were the only ones on the earth at that time.

27So God created human beingsc in his own image.

In the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them.

28Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.â€

He asked them to populate the earth as it was just being formed. Not only with their offspring, but their offspring's offspring. It was never intended, hey, have 20 kids so we can have a tv show. This verse was very specific for that time.

[Anxious Girl]

Be fruitful and multply goes back to the book of Genesis. It was God's directive to Adam and Eve as they were the only ones on the earth at that time.

27So God created human beingsc in his own image.

In the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them.

28Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.â€

He asked them to populate the earth as it was just being formed. Not only with their offspring, but their offspring's offspring. It was never intended, hey, have 20 kids so we can have a tv show. This verse was very specific for that time.

How come this command isn't supposed to be taken literally today; but Old Testament laws such as "mankind shall not lay with one another as with womankind" in Leviticus have to be taken literally? (Please feel free to correct me if the verse is a bit off and if the citation is wrong :D )

[debrand]

Be fruitful and multply goes back to the book of Genesis. It was God's directive to Adam and Eve as they were the only ones on the earth at that time.

27So God created human beingsc in his own image.

In the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them.

28Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.â€

He asked them to populate the earth as it was just being formed. Not only with their offspring, but their offspring's offspring. It was never intended, hey, have 20 kids so we can have a tv show. This verse was very specific for that time.

Well, you and I agree on this issue. However, if you read on this site for long, you will discover that there are many fundies who don't consider you a 'real or true' Christian because you don't think family planning is a sin.

[Koala]

Can you show me the verse that advises parents to give a "simple smack on the bottom"?

The verses I've read actually specifically mention beating. They say nothing about a smack on the bottom:

Proverbs 23:13-14

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Care to defend your despicable book now?

You know what? I would really like this question answered. You claim to base your beliefs on marriage and child "discipline" on the Bible, but what you are saying does not mesh with the Bible you claim to believe.

1 man + 1 (willing) woman marriages, and smacks on the bottom do not match up with the verses we are quoting for you.

I am sick of people hitting their kids and using the Bible as an excuse. If you were disciplining your kid per the Bibles instructions you'd be in jail.

[Anxious Girl]

Well, you and I agree on this issue. However, if you read on this site for long, you will discover that there are many fundies who don't consider you a 'real or true' Christian because you don't think family planning is a sin.

Ah, debrand; you mean real!Christian and true!Christian. :D

[scarygirl]

It bugs me when people come in here throwing grenades calling us bullies, God haters, etc.

I never post on fundie blogs. If a fundie doesn't want to read what I have to say, all they have to do is not come to this one tiny corner of the internet. If fundies do come here, they should have read the rules and FAQ and prepared themselves to enter a hostile environment. I don't hate God, and I don't hate most people. I admit I have nothing but contempt for the child beaters, the woman abusers, and the ones that post women's names and photos on their blogs because those women chose to have an abortion.

I snark, I get mad, I yell, I swear. But I also have compassion for the innocents who have no choice about their upbringing. Fundamentalism hurt me in a lot of ways, it has hurt so many people. I don't want anyone to go through what I went through, and I don't want anyone to go through the more extreme fundie grist mill. It grinds exceedingly fine. This is a snark website, not a support forum, but there is support here. We gossip and fight but we also analyze and discuss. We force one another to examine our prejudices and more posters than I can list inspire me to be a better human being.

Free Jinger is much more than a snark forum, it's a community. A fighty, bitey, overwhelmingly feminist, incredibly varied, incredibly caring one, all fundie aspersions to the contrary.

So basically, scarygirl, you don't have a clue what you're on about, and you can feel free to get the fuck out if you don't want to be here.

I will only say this one more time, I was told basically that no matter what thread I go to they will bring up anything I said in this thread no matter if the topic. How is that not bullying?

But if someone wishes to do that, that is there choice. I don't have to respond to it.

As far as the hating god comment that was reaction to people treating persons like haters simply because they express an opinion that lines up with what the bible says.

As far as being a feminist or not, I consider myself to be a feminist, but I can see also the value of the Proverbs 31 woman so long as the whole book is in play. The woman of that book was respected by her husband and public alike. She worked at home and in the market place. She wasn't quite the SAHD/M that fundamentalists desciibe her to be.

[thoughtful]

How come this command isn't supposed to be taken literally today; but Old Testament laws such as "mankind shall not lay with one another as with womankind" have to be taken literally?

Not to mention this, which you (Scarygirl) posted as the reason marriage must be between a man and woman:

“And the LORD God said, ‘It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.’ Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: ‘This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.’ Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.â€

—Genesis 2:18-25 (NKJV)

How do you know that wasn't just a directive for the two of them, especially since it was contradicted by so many definitions of "Biblical" marriage afterwards?

After being through many translations, the idea that it is a general directive could be an error.

I'm not the greatest Hebrew scholar, but I'm pretty sure the original does not say "a man" -- just "man" or "he." So it could just refer to Adam.

Better Hebrew translators, what do you say?

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0102.htm

Of course, Adam had no mom and dad, so it might just be yet another instance of the Bible not really being a God-given set of instructions for life, just a book written by people.

[thoughtful]

I'm trying to figure out what for. It looks like a Zamboni.

Just to look cool, man! :auto-mysterymachine:

You are not alone in thinking it looks like a Zamboni - here's the page where I found it:

http://www.nooneridesforfree.com/2011/0 ... mboni.html

Hey, in all of the threads about Chick-fil-a, how come this smiley never showed up?

:animals-chickencatch:

[Patsy]

Golly, formergothardite

[Anxious Girl]

thoughtful; I wonder if scarygirl realizes that the KJV was written by a gay English king who was forced to hide his being a homosexual in order to produce an heir for the English throne? ;) Whoops; that's the history nerd coming out again... I have been interested in European royalty history lately. *sorry for going a bit off-topic*

[Guest Anonymous]

I will only say this one more time, I was told basically that no matter what thread I go to they will bring up anything I said in this thread no matter if the topic. How is that not bullying?

But if someone wishes to do that, that is there choice. I don't have to respond to it.

It's not bullying because asking questions/continuing to discuss a subject is not bullying.

It's not bullying because no one is threatening you or harming you in any way.

It's not bullying because if you don't like it, you can simply choose not to visit this forum and you will never have to see it.

It's not bullying because the Free Jinger rules and FAQ clearly state the guidelines the forum operates under, and you chose to register here presumably knowing exactly what you signed up for. If you didn't read that stuff, that's on you.

How is it bullying to talk to you in a way that you don't find appealing on a website, but it's not bullying for a corporation to donate money to organizations that actively work to deny people civil rights, and encourage governments to kill their citizens?

Do you truly think that someone talking to you in an unpleasant manner on a forum is worse than not being able to marry the person you love, and fearing for or actually losing your life?

[Koala]

I will only say this one more time, I was told basically that no matter what thread I go to they will bring up anything I said in this thread no matter if the topic. How is that not bullying?

I know this will come as quite a shock, but quoting your words back to you does not = bullying.

I tell you what does equal bullying though. Denying someone their civil rights because you don't like the idea of gay people getting married.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Just to look cool, man! :auto-mysterymachine:

You are not alone in thinking it looks like a Zamboni - here's the page where I found it:

http://www.nooneridesforfree.com/2011/0 ... mboni.html

Hey, in all of the threads about Chick-fil-a, how come this smiley never showed up?

:animals-chickencatch:

Definitely one for my WTF file.