Someone is going to get hurt - Lay Midwives

[phereby]

"Should they now? You'd better hurry up and give your expertise to the National Institute for Clinical Excellence who have approved elective c-sections on the UK National Health Service for women who, for whatever reason, wish to go that route instead of a vaginal delivery."

Wow. That's appalling.

[bouncyball]

"Should they now? You'd better hurry up and give your expertise to the National Institute for Clinical Excellence who have approved elective c-sections on the UK National Health Service for women who, for whatever reason, wish to go that route instead of a vaginal delivery."

Wow. That's appalling.

I know, to think a panel of medical experts came to that decision without asking your permission first!

[meda]

"If women are supposed to trust their bodies and make informed decisions when choosing natural birth, why can't they listen to their bodies and make an informed decision to choose a C-section?"

They can make an informed decision to choose a C-section. And a doctor can make an informed decision not to perform it. I'm simply pointing out that doctors shouldn't perform surgery at the direction of the patient.

Just so I am clear....a doctor using their best judgement refuses to perform a c-section on woman who makes an informed request, and that is a good standard of care. However a doctor who uses their best judgement and advises a woman who all thing considered wants to deliver vaginally to have a c section is OMG!!!!TORTURING WOMEN NEEDLESSLY AND HURTING THE BABIES!!!!!!

Gotcha

[valsa]

"If women are supposed to trust their bodies and make informed decisions when choosing natural birth, why can't they listen to their bodies and make an informed decision to choose a C-section?"

They can make an informed decision to choose a C-section. And a doctor can make an informed decision not to perform it. I'm simply pointing out that doctors shouldn't perform surgery at the direction of the patient.

So you are pro-forced-vaginal-birth. Thanks. That's all I needed to know to dismiss your opinion on the matter.

[valsa]

Just so I am clear....a doctor using their best judgement refuses to perform a c-section on woman who makes an informed request, and that is a good standard of care. However a doctor who uses their best judgement and advises a woman who all thing considered wants to deliver vaginally to have a c section is OMG!!!!TORTURING WOMEN NEEDLESSLY AND HURTING THE BABIES!!!!!!

Gotcha

This. So much this.

[Muriel]

I was told the side affects of epidurals and other drugs in a pre-natal class held by the hospital and recommended by my doctor. They also advocated for natural delivery and shared various methods of pain management. I was induced but only because I was overdue by more than a week with no sign of going into labor anytime soon (I had absolutely no dilation at that point). I made it 16 hours without meds before I gave in and asked for an epidural. And good thing I did. My son was face up and got caught on my pelvic bone. I pushed for 3 hours before they finally took me into a c-section. When they got me opened, they found him so jammed up that there was no chance in hell he was ever coming out that direction. The poor kid's entire head was one big bruise and he had an open sore on the back of his head. Thank god I was in a hospital. Thank god I had a good doctor. Both my son and I are healthy and alive today because of them. No one could ever convince me to have a home birth after that experience. I'd rather be somewhere with emergency medical equipment ready at a moment's notice. My entire pregnancy was smooth. I had no issues at all and I'm a healthy woman. I would have been a perfect candidate for home birth. Things can go wrong at any time without any indication.

Wow ! I experienced exactly the same things with my first daughter's birth !

No issues during pregnancy, I was young and healthy, but this face up thing messed up the whole process of birth :(

Thanks to my OB who performed an emergency CS the life of my daughter was saved !

After that I had 2 successful VBAC, but in no way this C-section was unnecessary...

[ShesCrafty]

Just so I am clear....a doctor using their best judgement refuses to perform a c-section on woman who makes an informed request, and that is a good standard of care. However a doctor who uses their best judgement and advises a woman who all thing considered wants to deliver vaginally to have a c section is OMG!!!!TORTURING WOMEN NEEDLESSLY AND HURTING THE BABIES!!!!!!

Gotcha

But, but...it's just that us women are so uneducated and uninformed, we need people like phereby to hold our hands and tell us what to do with our bodies. And obviously, a vaginal birth is the RIGHT choice. He/she has obviously never heard of elective surgeries such as breast implants and nose jobs. Those are so rare since, of course, "doctors shouldn't perform surgery at the direction of the patient." :roll:

[phereby]

"I know, to think a panel of medical experts came to that decision without asking your permission first!"

My permission has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of excellent reasons for performing C-sections. "The mother wants it this way" is not one of them. Just like there might be many good reasons for cutting off my ear. "I want it cut off" shouldn't prompt the doctor to call for an operating room.

[formergothardite]

I want some work done on my tummy one of these days, not necessary, I just want it so I'll have a flatter stomach. Not necessary for life, I just want it, should that be allowed phereby?

[meda]

"I know, to think a panel of medical experts came to that decision without asking your permission first!"

My permission has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of excellent reasons for performing C-sections. "The mother wants it this way" is not one of them. Just like there might be many good reasons for cutting off my ear. "I want it cut off" shouldn't prompt the doctor to call for an operating room.

So a pregnant woman should not get to make decisions about her delivery unless those decisions consist of demanding an unmedicated vaginal birth...in which case those decisions are sacrosanct. Because only stupid selfish women who don't trust their bodies and love their babies would make any other choice.

[emmiedahl]

I want some work done on my tummy one of these days, not necessary, I just want it so I'll have a flatter stomach. Not necessary for life, I just want it, should that be allowed phereby?

Same here. My older sister had that "mommy makeover" surgery that removes excess skin (taking stretch marks with it) and lifts the girls back to where they were. The risks are the same as a c-section--infection, anesthesia complications, etc. I guess all these smart people think stretch marks and saggy boobs are the "natural" thing and feel capable of making the decision on my behalf. Or maybe I can have it done as long as I have no anesthesia or pain medication. :shock:

[twin2]

This thread is beginning to reek of Elle.

[Deleted03]

I want some work done on my tummy one of these days, not necessary, I just want it so I'll have a flatter stomach. Not necessary for life, I just want it, should that be allowed phereby?

ugh. I never thought of it that way. And although I think cosmetic surgery is crazy risk taking, I do see your point.

But then in socialized medicine countries, should those elective C-sections be free or paying like elective surgeries are?

So many questions... Thank you!

[valsa]

So a pregnant woman should not get to make decisions about her delivery unless those decisions consist of demanding an unmedicated vaginal birth...in which case those decisions are sacrosanct. Because only stupid selfish women who don't trust their bodies and love their babies would make any other choice.

I'm wondering if phereby would support requiring C-sections where there are indications for one. After all, if "I want a C-section" isn't a good enough reason for one if there are no medical indications for it, surely that means "I want a vaginal birth" isn't a good enough reason for one if there are medical indications for a C-section.

[formergothardite]

This thread is beginning to reek of Elle.

Exactly what I was thinking.

[valsa]

ugh. I never thought of it that way. And although I think cosmetic surgery is crazy risk taking, I do see your point.

But then in socialized medicine countries, should those elective C-sections be free or paying like elective surgeries are?

So many questions... Thank you!

What about elective reconstructive plastic surgery? Should that be free?

[Deleted03]

Same here. My older sister had that "mommy makeover" surgery that removes excess skin (taking stretch marks with it) and lifts the girls back to where they were. The risks are the same as a c-section--infection, anesthesia complications, etc. I guess all these smart people think stretch marks and saggy boobs are the "natural" thing and feel capable of making the decision on my behalf. Or maybe I can have it done as long as I have no anesthesia or pain medication. :shock:

---

thread derailing for personal rant: I have many stretch marks (not on my belly, but still many, hips, knees, arms, thighs) and I just want to say I'm tired of the "you earned your tiger marks" or stretch marks as being only a pregnancy related outcome. I did not earn anything except a very delicate skin. I wish people would stop saying it's ugly. It's my body and that's how it's been since I was a teen (and I got those way before I gained a significant amount of weight - and they don't disappear when you lose weight either).

I am certainly not getting them removed (actually no idea how you could do that on knees!!!) and I'd like that they are embraced not as a mama thing, but as relatively normal occurrence of women and men's bodies.

Same issues with apparent veins on boobs.

/end of rant.

[Deleted03]

What about elective reconstructive plastic surgery? Should that be free?

No. Unless reconstructive you mean that an accident or congenital malformation happened. If it's to get bigger boobs because you want bigger boobs, then no, I don't think it should be free.

If it's to change sex, yes free. If you were burned yes. If you don't like your nose? no.

[desertvixen]

I'm blown away by the tiny amount of maternity leave you get in the US. We get 6 months paid with an option for 3 further months unpaid. In Scandinavia they get 2 years!!

Yes, maternity leave in the US is a joke. One reason for staying in the Army - I get six weeks paid leave and can take more paid leave if I have it saved up (I think there might be a sixty-day limit). I don't have to worry about losing my rank/job. If I have pregnancy complications, I can't be fired or needlessly bitched at for having doctor's appointments. By the time I retire, the baby factory will be closed.

To me, birth choices are just another area where society tries to exercise its "right" to have control over a woman's body.

Ding ding ding! Exactly.

[Cran]

"The mother wants it" is an excellent reason for a c-section! Birth can be very hard and traumatic, and some women are very afraid of it. Should they be FORCED to live trough a very traumatic experience? No, they shouldn't!

There was an uproar when women who wanted an abortion had to have mandatory transvaginal ultrasound - how is a forced vagina birth better?

[wildrose]

My healthy daughter-in-law had an uneventful pregnancy and ended up with a third degree perineal tear because the baby had its hands up by its head as it travelled through the birth canal. She was immediately rushed off to surgery. She is unsure if she wants to run the risk of an even worse tear during another labour. Would having an elective, planned C-section be regarded as frivolous, phereby? Because fourth degree perineal tears are no laughing matter.

[valsa]

No. Unless reconstructive you mean that an accident or congenital malformation happened. If it's to get bigger boobs because you want bigger boobs, then no, I don't think it should be free.

If it's to change sex, yes free. If you were burned yes. If you don't like your nose? no.

Yes, by reconstructive I mean surgery to correct an accidental or congenital malformation. However, there are malformations that don't affect function of the affected body part and are only for the peace of mind of the affected person. If you think those should be covered, even though they're technically elective, why shouldn't a C-section done for the peace of mind of the mother also be covered?

[Deleted03]

Yes, by reconstructive I mean surgery to correct an accidental or congenital malformation. However, there are malformations that don't affect function of the affected body part and are only for the peace of mind of the affected person. If you think those should be covered, even though they're technically elective, why shouldn't a C-section done for the peace of mind of the mother also be covered?

I'd say because a C-section is a one time event versus something that affects the psychiatric health of someone on a daily basis?

I guess the real argument there though is that the baby has to come out one way or another. So if you can choose to have local or general anesthesia in any case, then yes i see why elective c-sections should be covered.

[valsa]

I'd say because a C-section is a one time event versus something that affects the psychiatric health of someone on a daily basis?

I guess the real argument there though is that the baby has to come out one way or another. So if you can choose to have local or general anesthesia in any case, then yes i see why elective c-sections should be covered.

There are been women to claim to have PTSD due to bad birthing experiences. I'd say PTSD affects someone on a daily basis.

[NurseNell]

In a way I think the "natural birth" movement has been regressive. It shames women who do want medication and elective C-sections. Reminds me of how using anesthesia was at first discouraged, because the pain of childbirth was supposed to be the woman's burden after the Fall.

What is your definition of elective C-sections? A C-section should always be for a medical reason, not because someone just wants a C-section.