Someone is going to get hurt - Lay Midwives

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Word. I keep seeing comments around in the way of "if only more women were educated, they would have natural births." Gee, thanks for assuming I'm only planning on getting an epidural when I have kids because I'm just too ignorant to know better :roll:

And yeah, people don't need to be drugged to get dental work done either. But it hurts like a bitch and is terrifying so people will continue to get numbing shots, laughing gas, sedatives, etc. Because people are in fact capable of cost/benefit analyses.

Yeah man, really.

"My ether-free root canal was the most empowering moment of my life!" :shock:

[emmiedahl]

I considered an assisted homebirth with the first baby. My babydaddy's mom is a nurse practitioner and she was very much into the idea of delivering the baby, especially considering that I was a 17/18 (birthday occurred toward end of pregnancy) year old woman with an incredibly low risk pregnancy and in perfect health.

I would have died if my mother had not talked me out of it. Interventions? Do you mean the vacuum extraction that pulled the baby out of me when I lost the ability to push after several hours? The blood they gave me when I hemorrhaged, losing 3 pints in a minute after birth? Or the oxygen that kept me conscious when I was pushing so hard I could not breath? Which intervention was wrong? Why should I have trusted my body even though that would have meant the most natural of outcomes, a dead mother and dead baby thanks to not being fit for birth?

It was the most fucked up birth experience I have even heard of (except for that of emmyfair, who has shared on FJ a few times about how bad BAD can really be) and yet I have had four more children, naturally, and I can hug that boy I gave birth to thanks to the evil doctors.

[Deleted03]

Word. I keep seeing comments around in the way of "if only more women were educated, they would have natural births." Gee, thanks for assuming I'm only planning on getting an epidural when I have kids because I'm just too ignorant to know better :roll:

And yeah, people don't need to be drugged to get dental work done either. But it hurts like a bitch and is terrifying so people will continue to get numbing shots, laughing gas, sedatives, etc. Because people are in fact capable of cost/benefit analyses.

I just want to say that getting a shot in your back is kind of more risky than a numbing shot in the gum. Just sayin'

I agree that this movement as the "breast is best even if you don't want to or can't" is just another way to put pressure on women, and has been a place where competition and guilt has been developing.

Have you guys ever watched the birth shows on TV? Or 16 and Pregnant? Next time you're watching those shows, start tracking how many of them are given pitocin right away, and then watch the interventions pile up. Oh, hey, let's break your water to speed things up. Woops! Sorry, sweetie, but you can only labor for a few hours after your water has broken because it's an infection risk. We need to do a c-section right away. I don't think all OBs are like that, but if you watch what happens on those shows and listen to women's stories about how their births went, there are a hell of a lot of OBs who do seem to be looking for places to intervene.

.

I agree with you that on 16 &P there were several episodes wtf? Like asking for an induction because you're one week close to your due date and then end up in C-sec. Or hey let's induce you, oh I'll break your waters, oh no distress, let'S do a C-sec.

But more than that (where I don't have medical knowledge and we are talking of teens) what is really really strange on that show, it's that maybe only 10% of the girl have the possibility to move around while laboring, or are even encouraged to try different positions to push. I was really surprised... I think it really shows how it depends on your hospital.

[PennySycamore]

I'm not arguing that pain meds should be kept away from all laboring women, but you should be told the side effects of those drugs. And they do have side effects. You should also not assume that laboring is necessarily going to be unmanageable without them either. It may be or it may not be.

[valsa]

I'm not arguing that pain meds should be kept away from all laboring women, but you should be told the side effects of those drugs. And they do have side effects. You should also not assume that laboring is necessarily going to be unmanageable without them either. It may be or it may not be.

Again, why is your automatic assumption that no woman is aware of the side effects?

[ShesCrafty]

All drugs have side effects and it is up to the individual to weigh the pros and cons before taking those drugs. And the idea that women choose to have meds during labor is because they are uneducated about them is very condescending. I guess I give us women the benefit of the doubt and believe that we are quite capable of making informed decisions for ourselves.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

All drugs have side effects and it is up to the individual to weigh the pros and cons before taking those drugs. And the idea that women choose to have meds during labor is because they are uneducated about them is very condescending. I guess I give us women the benefit of the doubt and believe that we are quite capable of making informed decisions for ourselves.

QFT.

So is the idea that woman have to be "told" what are the side effects. Most women have access to the internet and books about pregnancy, which describe the nature and potential risks from the medicine. Many women have also gone through at least one pregnancy before, and are not unfamiliar with the process of pregnancy and childbirth.

[FakePigtails]

I just want to say that getting a shot in your back is kind of more risky than a numbing shot in the gum. Just sayin'

I agree that this movement as the "breast is best even if you don't want to or can't" is just another way to put pressure on women, and has been a place where competition and guilt has been developing.

I don't know what else to say besides "duh." Well that and I purposely included things like anesthesia that do have major if rare risks, just as epidurals do. People still choose to use them because it's worth it to them. In fact, it's pretty scary to have a needle in your back even if you haven't heard specific info on potential side effects. You'd think that alone would be compelling enough for people to trust that women are making the choice that's best for them.

[Juliakitty]

If you live in a developed nation, and you are to friggin cheap to pay for a hospital delivery, then you probably shouldn't be having children. If you are more worried about money than the health of mother and child, being a parent is not for you.

Thank you for telling me that being a parent is not for me. I am pretty sure my kids will disagree with you on that one. Oh, and go jump in a lake while you're at it.

[emmiedahl]

Again, why is your automatic assumption that no woman is aware of the side effects?

No shit. They make you sign a paper saying that the risks and side effects have been explained to you and you are willing to undergo the risk. I only had an epidural with one child, and I had the nurse, then my doctor, then the anesthesiologist explain the possibilities.

[Witsec7]

And you are the decider? Cool I must have missed the email.

[Juliakitty]

Although I am still angry about being told I shouldn't be a parent, I will try to get over it enough to make a coherent observation, since I sort of straddle the line between crunchy granola homebirther and awesome medical science admirer. I have noticed that people on both sides of the line are easily angered by the accusation that they are making their decisions out of ignorance. It actually IS possible for two people to research the living daylights out of an issue, but come to different conclusions about it, and to have different comfort levels and balances of risk.

[PennySycamore]

I give up. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Exiting the conversation.

[Childless]

I was told the side affects of epidurals and other drugs in a pre-natal class held by the hospital and recommended by my doctor. They also advocated for natural delivery and shared various methods of pain management. I was induced but only because I was overdue by more than a week with no sign of going into labor anytime soon (I had absolutely no dilation at that point). I made it 16 hours without meds before I gave in and asked for an epidural. And good thing I did. My son was face up and got caught on my pelvic bone. I pushed for 3 hours before they finally took me into a c-section. When they got me opened, they found him so jammed up that there was no chance in hell he was ever coming out that direction. The poor kid's entire head was one big bruise and he had an open sore on the back of his head. Thank god I was in a hospital. Thank god I had a good doctor. Both my son and I are healthy and alive today because of them. No one could ever convince me to have a home birth after that experience. I'd rather be somewhere with emergency medical equipment ready at a moment's notice. My entire pregnancy was smooth. I had no issues at all and I'm a healthy woman. I would have been a perfect candidate for home birth. Things can go wrong at any time without any indication.

[Arete]

Bottom line, there are pros and cons of hospital and homebirths. Most women are well informed on the choice they make, and pros and cons of drugs and labor interventions in a hospital are routinely explained. I think everyone can agree that these "lay midwifes/doulas/people with a calling from God/Mother Nature with no education" have no business delivering babies.

Don't bring up what happens in 16 and Pregnant as routine. When your 16 and pregnant, you usually have several other strikes against you such as an environment of poverty/lack of education, not a lot of familiarity with your body, and not as likely to use the resources that are available to their maximum benefit.

[desertvixen]

I agree that this movement as the "breast is best even if you don't want to or can't" is just another way to put pressure on women, and has been a place where competition and guilt has been developing.

This. It's ridiculous.

I had an epidural-free childbirth, but believe me, that was NOT my intent. My labor went much faster than expected.

Having done it without once, I will opt for epidural-free again.

I. Me. desertvixen.

Every other woman needs to make her own choice, and we need to cut the guilt bs out.

[jenny_islander]

And you are the decider? Cool I must have missed the email.

In the United States there are places where it is impossible, literally impossible, for people to have a baby in the hospital without ending up with thousands of dollars to pay after insurance. If they don't have thousands of dollars to plunk down within a month and they can't arrange a payment plan, their credit ratings go down, which can endanger their ability to get a car, house, or job. And if they wait until they have thousands of dollars put by, something happens to the house, car, job that carries health insurance, health of one or both parents . . . Under these circumstances, a homebirth midwife who charges hundreds of dollars begins to sound attractive.

Basically what you are saying is, "If you aren't comfortable enough to be able to drop thousands of dollars today without worrying about the inevitable emergencies of tomorrow, then you can't have children."

[Witsec7]

In the United States there are places where it is impossible, literally impossible, for people to have a baby in the hospital without ending up with thousands of dollars to pay after insurance. If they don't have thousands of dollars to plunk down within a month and they can't arrange a payment plan, their credit ratings go down, which can endanger their ability to get a car, house, or job. And if they wait until they have thousands of dollars put by, something happens to the house, car, job that carries health insurance, health of one or both parents . . . Under these circumstances, a homebirth midwife who charges hundreds of dollars begins to sound attractive.

Basically what you are saying is, "If you aren't comfortable enough to be able to drop thousands of dollars today without worrying about the inevitable emergencies of tomorrow, then you can't have children."

Truly this isn't news to me, 27 years ago the my 20% on an 80/20 health insurance policy cost me over 20K. Small price to pay for my life and that of my child.

[roddma]

In a way I think the "natural birth" movement has been regressive. It shames women who do want medication and elective C-sections. Reminds me of how using anesthesia was at first discouraged, because the pain of childbirth was supposed to be the woman's burden after the Fall.

It isn't about shaming but wondering why anybody wants to be poked and prodded on for no reason. C-sections are major abdominal surgery with risks. Unless needed why take such risks? It really comes down to what is best for all but to choose major surgery just dumbfounds me.

[Irishy]

Here in Ireland, all births are paid for by the state. Sure, you can choose to go to a private hospital and pay for it but you have lots of options within the public system. Like some hospitals provide domicilary midwives that will deviver your baby and provide all ante and post partum care in your home, if your local hospital doesn't do this, you can apply for a grant to cover all costs using an independant (not lay) midwife.

Also, there's no such thing as an ob nurse here. All care in hospital is provided by midwives and doctors. A midwife will almost always catch your baby. A doctor will only be summoned if there's an intervention needed.

It's the same in the uk afaik

Edited to add that we have a 26% c section rate.

[Deleted03]

It isn't about shaming but wondering why anybody wants to be poked and prodded on for no reason. C-sections are major abdominal surgery with risks. Unless needed why take such risks? It really comes down to what is best for all but to choose major surgery just dumbfounds me.

ok I have a friend who experienced that:

She had to be induced (had to) labored with nothing advancing. She told via FB she was going to have a CS (yes labor was THAT intense that she still could be on FB). There were women arguing on that status that really she should try other positions, that she should not give up already. My friend was already away so she was not mad or anything. I was. I did not say anything on FB because it was inappropriate!

No it's not about shaming women to begin with, but some women take it to the level where they argue with laboring women about what they are doing wrong.

that's not shaming for you? I think that's pretty obvious here what some people think it is appropriate to say to someone having a labor different than theirs. And that,s the just the tip of the iceberg.

Now I don't like comparing epidural to shots in the gums (or even regular anesthesia) because it's not. It's something you can get if you want - whereas regular anesthesia is not optional or if it is, you'll still have anesthesia, and it carries inherent risks because it's in your spine. I don't care if you think it's riskless or that the risks are acceptable, the comparison just does not work.

[meda]

The asumption that women who have hospital births with medication and "interventions" are ignorant or hoodwinked, besides being just stunningly condescending, reminds me of the arguments ant-abortion people make when insisting that women who want to terminate a pregnancy view ultrasounds of the fetus. "women should be educated" and "If they only knew what they were doing, they would change their minds!!!!" is a statement that comes from both camps.

I also think disingenuous "wondering" about why a woman would have an elective c section is thinly veiled shaming. Of the women I know who have had electives, most had a very short opportunity to be home with their child, or had some minor to medium late stage pregnancy complications that required pretty constant monitoring, and they lived far enough away from their healthcare provider that such monitoring was unfeasable ( not an uncommon situation in rural areas), or another reason that was important to them.

Not everyone can or wants to be a stay at home mother with appropriate crunchy granola assistance a 5 minute drive away.

That does not mean they are deficient parents making wrong choices about their babies.

[Esther]

Here in Ireland, all births are paid for by the state. Sure, you can choose to go to a private hospital and pay for it but you have lots of options within the public system. Like some hospitals provide domicilary midwives that will deviver your baby and provide all ante and post partum care in your home, if your local hospital doesn't do this, you can apply for a grant to cover all costs using an independant (not lay) midwife.

Also, there's no such thing as an ob nurse here. All care in hospital is provided by midwives and doctors. A midwife will almost always catch your baby. A doctor will only be summoned if there's an intervention needed.

It's the same in the uk afaik

Edited to add that we have a 26% c section rate.

Yeah, I was going to say - things like this are why the US urgently needs to get behind the whole socialized healthcare thing. I don't get how anyone can oppose it, considering all these awful "some people would like to give birth at a hospital but just can't afford it" stories. That's just fucking terrifying to me. Poor people.

[gilora]

Yeah, I was going to say - things like this are why the US urgently needs to get behind the whole socialized healthcare thing. I don't get how anyone can oppose it, considering all these awful "some people would like to give birth at a hospital but just can't afford it" stories. That's just fucking terrifying to me. Poor people.

It may vary from state to state, but where I live (NJ) any hospital accepting public funds must treat a woman in labor, regardless of whether she qualifies for Medicaid. As far as I know, it doesn't mean the hospital cannot try to collect down the road, only that a woman in labor cannot be turned away. This post is not meant to be a commentary on socialized medicine; only that at least in NJ, there may be an element of choice in whether a woman gives birth in a hospital.

[Irishy]

I also think disingenuous "wondering" about why a woman would have an elective c section is thinly veiled shaming. Of the women I know who have had electives, most had a very short opportunity to be home with their child, or had some minor to medium late stage pregnancy complications that required pretty constant monitoring, and they lived far enough away from their healthcare provider that such monitoring was unfeasable ( not an uncommon situation in rural areas), or another reason that was important

Messed up the quote - Meda

I'm blown away by the tiny amount of maternity leave you get in the US. We get 6 months paid with an option for 3 further months unpaid. In Scandinavia they get 2 years!!