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Someone is going to get hurt - Lay Midwives


countressrascal

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Boy did I open a can of worms regarding this-I want to weight in on a couple of points that have been brought up:

1) I did homebirths up until 4 years ago, under very strict guidelines, however my malpractice insurance company would not cover me if I continued. That is when we opened a birthing center, there are 4 other Nurse Midwives with the clinic/hopstial/birthing center I would say that at least 75% if births are done by Nurse Midwives.

2) There is a need for elective c-sections both medically and personally. We do not push women to have them many times we try to talk them out of them if it is just because they want the child to be born on a certain date or day. Count is not a fan of elective c-sections just to be convenients to the family, many years ago we had a mother that wanted to have a csection so the baby would be born on the birthday of their namesake. He refused to do it.

3) Regarding the women in the orginal posting yes we consulted her that she needed a higher level of care, however her husband would not allow it because they did not have insurance, because they don't believe in it, and he is a follower of PP and viewed my husband as ebil.

4) Physicians don't walk around hospitals looking for women in labor to give them c-sections or drugs. They are porfessionals however they are regulated by by-law of hospitals and bigger one is their malpractice insurance company, they don't want to be sued by someone for a bad outcome. Yes in some cases they use c-sections as a defense against a bad outcome, however you as the patient always have the final say.

5) I am not against home birth however these lay midwives are an accident waiting to happen plus since in majority of the states professional midwife can not do home births any longer, you can thanks the anti abortion laws for stopping this practice. When I did them I had rules and would inspect the room that they were going to use prior to committing to it. One of my big rule was that there had to another adult other than the husband in house during the birthing process if there were children so someone was there to look after them if something happened and mother had to be moved.

6) Largest causes of Maternal Fetal death is not hospital/birthing center vs home births it is Domestic Violence.

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I had an elective surgery to remove a healthy kidney that didn't need to be removed. I'm grateful the doctor didn't refuse. Likewise, a healthy appendix may never need to be removed from a person.

Why did you have a healthy kidney removed? That makes no sense, unless it was to donate it to someone who needed a kidney transplant. And why wouldn't you say that? To have a healthy kidney removed for the hell of it just doesn't add up. A surgeon doing so would be censured by the licensing board.

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Why did you have a healthy kidney removed? That makes no sense, unless it was to donate it to someone who needed a kidney transplant. And why wouldn't you say that? To have a healthy kidney removed for the hell of it just doesn't add up. A surgeon doing so would be censured by the licensing board.

I did donate the kidney. That doesn't change the fact that I had a major elective surgery based solely on the fact I wanted to.

Why is my "I want to do this" regarding my kidney donation more valid than a pregnant woman's "I want to do this" regarding a C-section?

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I did donate the kidney. That doesn't change the fact that I had a major elective surgery based solely on the fact I wanted to.

Why is my "I want to do this" regarding my kidney donation more valid than a pregnant woman's "I want to do this" regarding a C-section?

No, you did not have the kidney removed based solely on the fact you wanted to. It was removed because it was needed for someone, with whom you had a good tissue match, who needed a kidney transplant. If there was no recipient for your kidney it would NOT have been removed. Doctors do NOT remove kidneys because someone wants a kidney removed just for the hell of it.

Others have listed plenty of reasons why C-sections should not be done just because someone wants one. It should be done only if there are medical indications for doing one.

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No, you did not have the kidney removed based solely on the fact you wanted to. It was removed because it was needed for someone, with whom you had a good tissue match, who needed a kidney transplant. If there was no recipient for your kidney it would NOT have been removed. Doctors do NOT remove kidneys because someone wants a kidney removed just for the hell of it.

Others have listed plenty of reasons why C-sections should not be done just because someone wants one. It should be done only if there are medical indications for doing one.

And why are any of those reasons any more valid than the reasons a pregnant woman has to want a C-section?

ETA: I'd also like to add that none of those reasons bolded include any medical indications that I needed my kidney out. Just because someone else needs a kidney does not equal a medical reason for me to have mine taken out.

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And why are any of those reasons any more valid than the reasons a pregnant woman has to want a C-section?

ETA: I'd also like to add that none of those reasons bolded include any medical indications that I needed my kidney out. Just because someone else needs a kidney does not equal a medical reason for me to have mine taken out.

Sorry, I assume you volunteered to donate your kidney. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe you just wanted your kidney out for the hell of it, and then the surgeon says, hey, since this person wants her kidney out let's see if it matches anyone on the wait list for a kidney transplant. Somehow, I don't think it happened that way.

Kidneys are not electively removed unless there is a medical reason, like renal cell carcinoma to name just one medical reason, OR the kidney is needed for a transplant. Kidney donors volunteer to donate a healthy kidney, at least where I live.

You did not have to have your kidney removed. The recipient could have waited longer or found a different donor.

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I have a question about the patient request c-sections. I know some years ago that happened and then the last few years there has been concern about the increasing c-section rate. I know our insurance currently won't pay for a c-section unless they approve it in advance (medically necessary for a variety of reasons) or it is due to an emergent condition that must then be documented after the fact to their satisfaction. Our hospital also will not admit women for a c-section unless it has been deemed medically necessary so I guess it's a double bind. Is this the way most hospitals and insurance plans are heading?

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Sorry, I assume you volunteered to donate your kidney. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe you just wanted your kidney out for the hell of it, and then the surgeon says, hey, since this person wants her kidney out let's see if it matches anyone on the wait list for a kidney transplant. Somehow, I don't think it happened that way.

Kidneys are not electively removed unless there is a medical reason, like renal cell carcinoma to name just one medical reason, OR the kidney is needed for a transplant. Kidney donors volunteer to donate a healthy kidney, at least where I live.

You did not have to have your kidney removed. The recipient could have waited longer or found a different donor.

The bolded is the key point you seem to not understand. My kidney was not removed due to a medical reason. By your own admission, you accept that there are reasons for me to have an elective surgery beyond it being a medical necessity for me. If I can have an elective surgery with no medical indications for it, why can't a woman have a C-section without medical indications? Also, it's been pointed out that cosmetic surgery is elective and surgeons do it all the time.

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Boy did I open a can of worms regarding this-I want to weight in on a couple of points that have been brought up:

1) I did homebirths up until 4 years ago, under very strict guidelines, however my malpractice insurance company would not cover me if I continued. That is when we opened a birthing center, there are 4 other Nurse Midwives with the clinic/hopstial/birthing center I would say that at least 75% if births are done by Nurse Midwives.

2) There is a need for elective c-sections both medically and personally. We do not push women to have them many times we try to talk them out of them if it is just because they want the child to be born on a certain date or day. Count is not a fan of elective c-sections just to be convenients to the family, many years ago we had a mother that wanted to have a csection so the baby would be born on the birthday of their namesake. He refused to do it.

3) Regarding the women in the orginal posting yes we consulted her that she needed a higher level of care, however her husband would not allow it because they did not have insurance, because they don't believe in it, and he is a follower of PP and viewed my husband as ebil.

4) Physicians don't walk around hospitals looking for women in labor to give them c-sections or drugs. They are porfessionals however they are regulated by by-law of hospitals and bigger one is their malpractice insurance company, they don't want to be sued by someone for a bad outcome. Yes in some cases they use c-sections as a defense against a bad outcome, however you as the patient always have the final say.

5) I am not against home birth however these lay midwives are an accident waiting to happen plus since in majority of the states professional midwife can not do home births any longer, you can thanks the anti abortion laws for stopping this practice. When I did them I had rules and would inspect the room that they were going to use prior to committing to it. One of my big rule was that there had to another adult other than the husband in house during the birthing process if there were children so someone was there to look after them if something happened and mother had to be moved.

6) Largest causes of Maternal Fetal death is not hospital/birthing center vs home births it is Domestic Violence.

Thanks for sharing this and your original post.

I agree with those who see strong connections between the attitudes of those aligned with the regressive (trust birth) homebirth movement and anti-choicers. Too bad us dumb wimminfolk just don't bother to get the edumacation we need to make smarter decisions. :roll:

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I have a question about the patient request c-sections. I know some years ago that happened and then the last few years there has been concern about the increasing c-section rate. I know our insurance currently won't pay for a c-section unless they approve it in advance (medically necessary for a variety of reasons) or it is due to an emergent condition that must then be documented after the fact to their satisfaction. Our hospital also will not admit women for a c-section unless it has been deemed medically necessary so I guess it's a double bind. Is this the way most hospitals and insurance plans are heading?

Majority hospitals do not do elective c-sections, we do not do them and have not for about 5 yrs. Insurance companies might or moght not pay for them that is a real sticky situation. OB/GYN that practice in high income areas have found ways around it.

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I just can't imagine people only getting 12 weeks of (unpaid!) maternity leave. That's horrifying. What do people do????

I'd have to look up the exact facts, but we have more than that here and it's paid at 75-80% of the normal wage. Afterward, a mother can get an extension if she chooses to breastfeed. Fathers or lesbian co-moms (as in, the partner in a lesbian couple who didn't give birth to the baby) are also able to take some time off (also at a similar wage).

Maternity leave forgets the childless by choice and infertile completely out. some of us cannot choose to have children. It is by design or infertility. I don't doubt parenting is a hard job but to assume childless people have no life or responsibility is ludicrous. I think many parents fail to understand they could choose to have children and should be prepared to deal with the changes. While anyone can take family leave it is harder when you are childless.

Anyway I cannot get excited about Jill Duggar being a lay midwife. She will likely be limited to their own circles.

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The bolded is the key point you seem to not understand. My kidney was not removed due to a medical reason. By your own admission, you accept that there are reasons for me to have an elective surgery beyond it being a medical necessity for me. If I can have an elective surgery with no medical indications for it, why can't a woman have a C-section without medical indications? Also, it's been pointed out that cosmetic surgery is elective and surgeons do it all the time.

Agree, your kidney was not removed for YOUR medical reason, it was removed because you VOLUNTEERED to donate it to someone who had a medical need for a donor kidney. It was not an elective surgery because your kidney was being transplanted into someone else. It's not like your kidney was removed and then thrown away. Elective cosmetic surgery is done all the time, insurance does not cover it , you pay CASH up front BEFORE the surgeon will do the surgery. Maybe if a woman wants an elective C-section when there are no medical reasons for it and she's willing to pay CASH she should be able to.

Good night Ms I Had My Kidney Removed for No Medical Reason.

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This and this.

It's not on the same level as trying to outlaw abortion and birth control, but I definitely think that there is an anti-choice strain in the homebirth movement. Hospital births are not seen as a valid choice. Nevermind that some women and babies may develop life threatening conditions and actually need the doctor.

You are SO absolutely right. I see this all the time and it really fucking pisses me off. :evil: My youngest and I would not be here if we'd gone the "crunchy granola" route.

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One of the more ridiculous conversations I've had recently was with one of the super crunchy types who tried to convince me I should have had my high risk pregnancies delivered in a birthing center. Yes, tried to convince me I was wrong years after the events occurred. Never mind that they were high risk and there was no birthing center around for at least one of the births. I refused to engage the discussion and got away quickly. Definitely carrying the point too far.

I've seen on baby boards where the supposedly well meaning also wanted to debate the woman's choice with her as she was in labor. Personally posting on the computer didn't cross my mind in labor.

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Agree, your kidney was not removed for YOUR medical reason, it was removed because you VOLUNTEERED to donate it to someone who had a medical need for a donor kidney. It was not an elective surgery because your kidney was being transplanted into someone else. It's not like your kidney was removed and then thrown away. Elective cosmetic surgery is done all the time, insurance does not cover it , you pay CASH up front BEFORE the surgeon will do the surgery. Maybe if a woman wants an elective C-section when there are no medical reasons for it and she's willing to pay CASH she should be able to.

Good night Ms I Had My Kidney Removed for No Medical Reason.

1) I think it's safe to say that a woman wanting a C-section can be considered to have volunteered for it.

2) The baby that is born by C-section isn't removed and then thrown away either.

You're changing your story a lot. First it's never okay to have an elective surgery if there's no medical indication for it. Then it's sometimes okay to have an elective surgery if there's no medical indication for it, but only if you have a good enough reason (reasons for having an elective C-section are never good enough) Then it's completely okay to have elective surgeries, but only if you can pay cash for them upfront (I do wonder about your opinion on elective reconstructive surgeries and why those wouldn't be similar to elective C-sections)

Have a nice night. Maybe sleep on the issue and try to get your opinion pinned down.

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Just another example of a southern state setting the bar lower for its poor or minority populations. Nothing to see here, move along. ;)

No no no. I think some time in the last century midwives were encouraged all over the place to serve those populations, but in no way is this a motivation in Arkansas at this time. Somebody speculated IN THIS THREAD about poor people with low risk pregnancies. This is NOT A THING in Arkansas. No. Stop assuming. We wear shoes. We have high tech hospitals in reach of every person.

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You are SO absolutely right. I see this all the time and it really fucking pisses me off. :evil: My youngest and I would not be here if we'd gone the "crunchy granola" route.

I was crunch and granolla, but that didn't mean I drew a line in the sand when it came to a healthy outcome for me and my child. We chose to transport before it became an emergency, and were in place with highly competent medical staff on hand when things went south. Stereotypes don't help when discussing this subject.

Edited to add: Per the State of Arkansas:

§ 17-85-101. PURPOSE AND AUTHORITY

It was determined by the General Assembly that adequate maternal care is not readily available in some parts of the state resulting in undue hardships to poor expectant mothers. Act 838 of 1983 provided for the lawful practice of lay midwifery in counties having 32.5% or more of this population below the poverty level.

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No, you did not have the kidney removed based solely on the fact you wanted to. It was removed because it was needed for someone, with whom you had a good tissue match, who needed a kidney transplant. If there was no recipient for your kidney it would NOT have been removed. Doctors do NOT remove kidneys because someone wants a kidney removed just for the hell of it.

Others have listed plenty of reasons why C-sections should not be done just because someone wants one. It should be done only if there are medical indications for doing one.

I have had two natural births, one with a doctor, one with a lay midwife (who was awesome) and one c-section (my daughter was complete breech).

I'm directing this to you, Nell, because you're in the profession. :) My daughter had to be closely monitored after my c-section because, as it was explained to me, the contractions in a natural childbirth are beneficial to the baby's breathing response, and her lungs were a little slow responding. Could you shed some light on the reasons why parents might be questioned on simply stating that they "just want" a c-section? I can understand wanting one for some reasons, but this thread is truly confusing me because it feels like it is being implied that there is no difference between a natural birth vs. c-section at all. There is. Now if the "I want to do this" goes along with previous trauma, or *any* myriad reasons, I would argue it then becomes a medical reason.

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I have had two natural births, one with a doctor, one with a lay midwife (who was awesome) and one c-section (my daughter was complete breech).

I'm directing this to you, Nell, because you're in the profession. :) My daughter had to be closely monitored after my c-section because, as it was explained to me, the contractions in a natural childbirth are beneficial to the baby's breathing response, and her lungs were a little slow responding. Could you shed some light on the reasons why parents might be questioned on simply stating that they "just want" a c-section? I can understand wanting one for some reasons, but this thread is truly confusing me because it feels like it is being implied that there is no difference between a natural birth vs. c-section at all. There is. Now if the "I want to do this" goes along with previous trauma, or *any* myriad reasons, I would argue it then becomes a medical reason.

No one is stating this. There are positives and negatives to both vaginal births and C-sections. Personally, I think that for low risk pregnancies the pros of vaginal births far outweigh those of C-sections. However, I trust that women who choose to have a C-section have their reasons and it's not my place to judge whether or not those reasons are "good enough" to actually get a C-section (now I'm having flashbacks to people wanting to decide whether a woman's reasons to have an abortion are good enough)

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No one is stating this. There are positives and negatives to both vaginal births and C-sections. Personally, I think that for low risk pregnancies the pros of vaginal births far outweigh those of C-sections. However, I trust that women who choose to have a C-section have their reasons and it's not my place to judge whether or not those reasons are "good enough" to actually get a C-section (now I'm having flashbacks to people wanting to decide whether a woman's reasons to have an abortion are good enough)

I know nobody stated it directly, which is why I said it feels like that to me. Maybe I'm reading wrong, or I missed something.

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I know nobody stated it directly, which is why I said it feels like that to me. Maybe I'm reading wrong, or I missed something.

I'm receiving the same message.

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No no no. I think some time in the last century midwives were encouraged all over the place to serve those populations, but in no way is this a motivation in Arkansas at this time. Somebody speculated IN THIS THREAD about poor people with low risk pregnancies. This is NOT A THING in Arkansas. No. Stop assuming. We wear shoes. We have high tech hospitals in reach of every person.

§ 17-85-101. PURPOSE AND AUTHORITY

It was determined by the General Assembly that adequate maternal care is not readily available in some parts of the state resulting in undue hardships to poor expectant mothers. Act 838 of 1983 provided for the lawful practice of lay midwifery in counties having 32.5% or more of this population below the poverty level

I wasn't assuming anything. I know everybody in AR wears shoes and that there are high tech medical facilities to treat the population. However, AR also allow minmally trained "lay midwives" to operate, supposedly for the sake of poor women. It is a disservice to poor women to offer them sub optimally trained caregivers, north or south.

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One of the more ridiculous conversations I've had recently was with one of the super crunchy types who tried to convince me I should have had my high risk pregnancies delivered in a birthing center. Yes, tried to convince me I was wrong years after the events occurred. Never mind that they were high risk and there was no birthing center around for at least one of the births. I refused to engage the discussion and got away quickly. Definitely carrying the point too far.

I've seen on baby boards where the supposedly well meaning also wanted to debate the woman's choice with her as she was in labor. Personally posting on the computer didn't cross my mind in labor.

Several unassisted homebirthing friends have tried to convince me that my hemorrhaging, shoulder dystocia, tearing etc would not even have happened if I had a homebirth. All complications are caused by hospitals and no one ever had a bad outcome before modern medicine dontcha know.

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I was crunch and granolla, but that didn't mean I drew a line in the sand when it came to a healthy outcome for me and my child. We chose to transport before it became an emergency, and were in place with highly competent medical staff on hand when things went south. Stereotypes don't help when discussing this subject.

Edited to add: Per the State of Arkansas:

I said "last century". I know of lay midwives in many very populated and affluent counties in Arkansas, so I'm assuming there has been an update in the statutes.

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