Someone is going to get hurt - Lay Midwives

[emmiedahl]

It has not been well-studied. But, certain pressure points do affect your hormones and can make you go into labor. Obviously this is not an issue with someone who is full-term like ZZ. Massage is contraindicated in the first trimester except when necessary because it has been found to be linked to increased rate of miscarriage. I have heard that it can make the baby defecate in the water and also contribute to placental abruption. WebMD supports this but I could not find an actual study.

Also, an untrained massage therapist may have a woman lie on her stomach on a table that has a piece cut out to accomodate her baby. This is actually not a good idea in the third trimester for reasons I do not really understand; trained prenatal massage therapists have the woman lay on her side.

[browngrl]

I think the biggest problem this midwife has (besides hubris) is the fact that she can't seem to get along with the other medical care providers. Some of the biggest medical disasters I have seen involved people who had a big chip on their shoulder and who subsequently refused to work with other health care providers. Most of the midwives I work with are sensible and reasonable people who work hand in hand with the doctors but there are always the odd few who let their "agenda" against doctors cloud their judgement. Of course some doctors are the same. IMO any health care provider who can't work as part of a team is a loose canon and a danger to all around them.

[Boogalou]

I am OB/GYN call this weekend-I wanted to add something to all this talk about non professional midwives. In the community that I live in we have two of them, one who works with our clinic all the time communicate about her patients because if she gets in the weeds we will help her out. Count is OB/GYN Family Practice and I am Nurse Midwife. The other will not communicate with us at all because she has a calling to deliver babies and special gift of knowing and healing her patients-quote from her. The two do not get along at all. A couple months ago the second midwife was caring for a patient that needed a higher level of care, she has multiple medical issues along with her pregancy. I called her and told her that I thought that she was over her head and she needed to release the patient to us for care. Of course she would not because she has this special gift of healing. Since she was also seeing us for other medical issues, I tracked her pregancy and made sure that I was in town around her due date because I knew backup would be needed and even air evac, which midwife can not order. Guess what complications did happen, to the point that both the mom and fetus almost died, due to the fact that midwife did not call for help fast enough, then when she did instead of calling the clinic she called 911. Small community know who to call when they get that type of call, we got the call and transported the patient to the clinic/hospital and called the AirEvac and saved both of them. Midwife was pissed because we airlifted her out and she had to have a C-section which now prevent her from having a homebirth. Hopefully this is her last with her medical history she does not need to get pregant again, next time she might die and I have told her that.

Here is my issue with lay midwives is that they do not have the equipment nor the medical knowledge to handle complex medical issues that could come up during labor, plus they don't do a very good job in prenatal care, since majority is done in the patients home. Example we are required to urine samples on every visit and blood work on a regular bases, they don't do any of that. Plus they reply on nonstandard medical methods to spend along labor. I read Zsu posting about her seeing a chiropathor and having a massage within 2 weeks of her due date that is very risky it could cause the fetus to have a bowel movement which would cause an infection now and at birth. I know that Count and I are ebil medical professional however we do care about the safety and well being of both lives.

As I said before I have a gut feeling that something is going to go wrong with Zsu delivery and her newest special snowflake, I hope I am wrong.

I can't really tell from your story, and maybe I'm missing something here, but did you tell the woman who needed the higher level of care that she needed more care than the midwife she had could provide? What was her response to that suggestion? Was she motivated by religious beliefs? I am glad to hear that, in the end, everyone was alive and well.

[Witsec7]

...

This. I also kind of worry about Jill Duggar being sued if something goes wrong in a delivery or she does something wrong. I don't like Jill that much as a person, but I would hate to see end up in a lawsuit or something.

Actually I would hate for anything to happen with a mother or child under Jill's care but I would love to see her sued. For instance if they are getting paid by the state to deliver children of the poor, I suspect there's some state or federal monies included in some cases. I'd love to see her sued for discrimination or a civil rights violation. But then I'm just an old meanie, and think some of these fundies need to be taken down a notch or two and acquainted with the RW.

[lilwriter85]

Actually I would hate for anything to happen with a mother or child under Jill's care but I would love to see her sued. For instance if they are getting paid by the state to deliver children of the poor, I suspect there's some state or federal monies included in some cases. I'd love to see her sued for discrimination or a civil rights violation. But then I'm just an old meanie, and think some of these fundies need to be taken down a notch or two and acquainted with the RW.

I agree some of these fundies need to be taken down a notch or town. The reason I would have sympathy for Jill if she got sued is because the Duggars would handle it poorly and Jill doesn't have the teeth to deal with certain things.

[valsa]

I wouldn't feel sorry for Jill if she got sued. There's a very simple way to reduce the likelihood of her being sued- education and training. Far, far more education and training than what she can brag about as a "lay midwife". As far as I'm concerned, it's one thing to play Russian roulette with your own life and another issue entirely to put other people's lives in your hands with half-assed training and piss poor "education".

[Witsec7]

If her 'training' does teach her one thing, perhaps she will learn how risky her mother's pregnancies are for both the mother and child.

[OkToBeTakei]

Lala, nurse midwife training in the US is just as good as nurse midwife training in Canada and Europe. There is no "improvement to get to their standards" required. What is a total joke is these fundy women or hippy dippies that call themselves "midwives" when they clearly are not. I also call bullshit on this "lay midwife" training some states have. You either go through the rigorous training and education to be a nurse midwife, or you have about as much business delivering babies as I do. Home birth doesn't need to be banned but these baby catchers need to be cracked down on.

A 'Midwife' is a Midwife in the UK. A doula is a pal you bring along. Seems to me some use the wrong terms.

[lilwriter85]

If her 'training' does teach her one thing, perhaps she will learn how risky her mother's pregnancies are for both the mother and child.

I hope it does, but I can see Jill ignoring some risks. She is Mullet's daughter and there have been rumors about Mullet doctor shopping or having disagreements with doctors who disagreed with her.

[PennySycamore]

Well said, browngrl!

There is a lay midwife here in my town that is just horrible. According to a IBCLC friend of mine, she was run out of Pennsylvania by the Amish. This midwife has no medical back-up and dumps women who run into problems with labor or birth at the nearby ER. Sge touts herself as the "Christian midwife" to attract the fundie clients and apparently downplays this with other women. I accompany my daughter on a tour of her birthing center. While waiting for the tour to start, I took a look at the books on her shelf and was horrified to a copy of "To Train Up a Child" there. I told my daughter about it and she wisely decided to not have her baby there.

I think the situation with birth is complicated in the US. Women are afraid to go to the hospital because of the interventions -many unneeded- that may encounter there. Conversely, they are scared of something going wrong at home or birthing center. The two sides need to stop fighting with each other (neither side is totally right nor totally wrong) and work for what's best for birthing women. Some interventions are needed some of the time to have a healthy mother and baby, but the c-section rate is way too high. Most women do not need to be drugged to give birth if they have good emotional support from a doula during labor and birth and if they are educated about birth beforehand. We also need to look at what other countries with better birth outcomes (lower maternal and infant mortality and morbidity rates) have to teach us.

[valsa]

Some interventions are needed some of the time to have a healthy mother and baby, but the c-section rate is way too high. Most women do not need to be drugged to give birth if they have good emotional support from a doula during labor and birth and if they are educated about birth beforehand.

You say this as if packs of doctors are roaming the hospital hallways, looking for unwilling laboring women to drug. In the U.S. a lot of C-sections and interventions are elective, by choice of the mother. You can argue that better education could persuade some of those mothers to choose non-medicated, vaginal births but in the end if I tell my doctor I want drugs then, by God, she better get me the good stuff. Stat.

[OkToBeTakei]

You say this as if packs of doctors are roaming the hospital hallways, looking for unwilling laboring women to drug. In the U.S. a lot of C-sections and interventions are elective, by choice of the mother. You can argue that better education could persuade some of those mothers to choose non-medicated, vaginal births but in the end if I tell my doctor I want drugs then, by God, she better get me the good stuff. Stat.

Hahaha QFT Is the accepted response I believe!

[pixydust]

You say this as if packs of doctors are roaming the hospital hallways, looking for unwilling laboring women to drug. In the U.S. a lot of C-sections and interventions are elective, by choice of the mother. You can argue that better education could persuade some of those mothers to choose non-medicated, vaginal births but in the end if I tell my doctor I want drugs then, by God, she better get me the good stuff. Stat.

Exactly. It is a choice. If a woman wants drugs for labor she should get them, and without guilt or lectures. Some Drs are quick to do interventions, some aren't. The Dr I had with my first kid seemed to want to do anything but give me a c-section, even with a distressed baby and I hadn't dilated past 3 in over 30 hours (got to 3 quickly, then stopped) and my water had broken 15 hours before. It was another Dr who convinced her to do it (after a nurse talked to him about it!).

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Exactly. It is a choice. If a woman wants drugs for labor she should get them, and without guilt or lectures. Some Drs are quick to do interventions, some aren't. The Dr I had with my first kid seemed to want to do anything but give me a c-section, even with a distressed baby and I hadn't dilated past 3 in over 30 hours (got to 3 quickly, then stopped) and my water had broken 15 hours before. It was another Dr who convinced her to do it (after a nurse talked to him about it!).

In a way I think the "natural birth" movement has been regressive. It shames women who do want medication and elective C-sections. Reminds me of how using anesthesia was at first discouraged, because the pain of childbirth was supposed to be the woman's burden after the Fall.

[emmiedahl]

You say this as if packs of doctors are roaming the hospital hallways, looking for unwilling laboring women to drug. In the U.S. a lot of C-sections and interventions are elective, by choice of the mother. You can argue that better education could persuade some of those mothers to choose non-medicated, vaginal births but in the end if I tell my doctor I want drugs then, by God, she better get me the good stuff. Stat.

I personally have begged for interventions and not gotten them because they were not medically indicated. And I have also had interventions that saved my life and that of my child. My experience with drugged births is that if you really want one, you need to talk to your doctor ahead of time and enter the hospital with the general agreement that you get an epidural as soon as you ask for one. Otherwise, the nurses will try to talk you out of it and by the time you have made your point clear it is too late for one.

In the US, it is relatively easy to find a doctor who will agree to a convenient induction at the mother's request. And these often lead to C-sections, which may have complications. But if a mother really wants and needs it, then should it be withheld? I know a medical resident who had a c-section when her induction failed to dilate her cervix fast enough. She had a narrow time frame for birth because of her job, and she could not leave it to chance without potentially setting her career back--something she had worked toward for a decade. She was not pressured and she certainly was not incapable of calculating the risk.

[jesssnerch]

Where are these doctors that give unnecessary c-sections and unnecessary drugs? I needed a c/s with my first because she was breech (foot first) and I was okay with that. With my second, my doctor was really encouraging a VBAC and I was really into it. I asked him if I could be induced because I needed time to have my family fly in to watch my daughter, but he discussed the risks with me and explained to me why he wouldn't do that. So, I had a c/s because it was the practical route to go. In no way have any of my OB's pushed any unwanted drugs or procedures on me. It was always my decision and all of my friends have had the same experiences with their doctors.

[sage]

Out of curiosity, why were you bothered by having blood on the warmer? I have a history of postpartum hemorrhage so they always make sure they have some O- ready to go.

My interpretation of this wasn't that there was bagged blood being held in the warmer, but rather there was blood from a previous birth still smeared and/or splashed on the warmer; it hadn't been cleaned and disinfected after a previous birth.

[deelaem]

How is having chiropractic work and a massage dangerous to the fetus? I think you are overexaggerating a bit.

And your last statement contradicts what you said. One of the direct entry midwives keeps in contact with you guys, transfers people out if they risk out, etc. The other one is a crap direct entry midwife. My first OB in my first pregnancy would routinely forget I was pregnant before I came in for my appointments (aka didn't read my chart). Thank God I switched OBs, because the second one saw a spike in my BP at 36.5 weeks, ordered 24hr urine and found out I had mild pre-e. Had I had the first, I'm sure it would have gone unchecked, since my BP was not super high (140/90, regularly 120/80).

All that to say, yes, there needs to be more training, similar to Canada and Europe, but banning homebirth (Europe does a lot of those and it turns out just fine for low-risk pregnancies) and saying massage is dangerous is being overly dramatic.

Aye carrumba! A redundancy AND a contradiction! :lol:

[Witsec7]

...

My interpretation of this wasn't that there was bagged blood being held in the warmer, but rather there was blood from a previous birth still smeared and/or splashed on the warmer; it hadn't been cleaned and disinfected after a previous birth.

It only makes sense if you were taking a touring the room, it's likely it wasn't completely cleaned an disinfected. Did you mention it ?

[crassy]

the whole midwife thing worries the hell out of me. Years ago, a relative insisted on having a home birth with a midwife. The pregnancy supposedly went fine, when she finally delivered, the baby was born with no breastbone, and intestines on the outside. The midwife ran screaming from the house. Luckily the husband was a cop and knew how to handle an emergency.

Way to many things can go wrong even in a seemingly routine pregnancy and delivery. If you live in a developed nation, and you are to friggin cheap to pay for a hospital delivery, then you probably shouldn't be having children. If you are more worried about money than the health of mother and child, being a parent is not for you.

PS, my deliveries were monitored by a nurse/midwife, in the hospital.

Anecdata =! reality in every case. I had a perfectly normal and uneventful birth with a midwife. I didn't see a doctor at all throughout my pregnancy. Things can go wrong even when you are in a hospital. Saying that all women should birth in a hospital is just downright ridiculous. Given the high rate of things like c.difficile, doctors who like to push unnecessary interventions, and various other bullshit happenings, I am VERY glad I birthed with only a midwife. Also, I don't pay for deliveries because I am from a country with socialised medicine. I chose to birth with a midwife because I had no need to go to a hospital and end up with a c-section.

[Arete]

PARDON THIS THREADJACK:

Holy shit, GlassCowcatcher, that new avatar of yours gives me the heebie jeebies! Nothing like a doctor in the Middle Ages wearing a mask to scare away the Plague to conjure the warm and fuzzies. :lol:

Carry on.

[SoybeanQueen]

The OB who delivered my daughter was an intervention pusher, and he almost *was* chasing me down to try to intervene in ways that were absolutely unnecessary. I'm not talking about pain medication. That's every mother's choice. He tried to cut an episiotomy that I did not need, and told me I needed a c-section because the baby was obviously not coming out (after I pushed for 20 minutes, first baby). She was born very shortly after that, without his interventions. Honestly, it seemed like he was bored with my normal pregnancy and labor and was looking for things to do. It was awful, and I am far from the only woman who has had that kind of experience.

He also tried to convince me that I should induce before my due date because he estimated her as a large baby on the ultrasound. She was about 6 pounds. The whole thing was ridiculous, and that kind of treatment is unacceptable in this day and age.

Have you guys ever watched the birth shows on TV? Or 16 and Pregnant? Next time you're watching those shows, start tracking how many of them are given pitocin right away, and then watch the interventions pile up. Oh, hey, let's break your water to speed things up. Woops! Sorry, sweetie, but you can only labor for a few hours after your water has broken because it's an infection risk. We need to do a c-section right away. I don't think all OBs are like that, but if you watch what happens on those shows and listen to women's stories about how their births went, there are a hell of a lot of OBs who do seem to be looking for places to intervene.

The small hospital near me has a very high c-section rate. I only know one woman who has had a baby there who delivered vaginally. One! Do we honestly believe that 90 percent of women are physically incapable of vaginal birth? These are not elective c-sections, either. All of them were told that their body just couldn't do it. I don't buy it, and that's why many women are looking for other types of care.

That hospital plus my experience with my daughter (in a large city, different hospital) put me off of hospital birth entirely. We live too far away from civilization for homebirth to be safe, IMO, so I had my youngest at a birth center in the city with a CNM and a second nurse attending and an OB on call. The difference in care was amazing. I had all of the usual prenatal tests, just in a less rushed, more personal environment. Best of all, no one tried to tell me something was wrong when everything was working as nature intended.

My decision had nothing to do with being cheap. I would have paid more for the fantastic care I received. Yes, there should be proper training for midwives, and the statistics should be available so women can make an informed choice. However, the same should go for OB care in a hospital, including negative outcomes of unnecessary intervention.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

PARDON THIS THREADJACK:

Holy shit, GlassCowcatcher, that new avatar of yours gives me the heebie jeebies! Nothing like a doctor in the Middle Ages wearing a mask to scare away the Plague to conjure the warm and fuzzies. :lol:

Carry on.

*hugs*

Hit me up any time you need a bubo lanced, sweetheart!

[PennySycamore]

The right education is the key. I think if most women knew that elective induction was the beginning of whole cascade of interventions that usually end up with an instrumental birth, then they might be less likely to choose one. Almost every baby delivered by vacuum extraction has a messed-up suck. Some infants are lucky enough to have moms that got the right help from an IBCLC and/or have gotten help from a craniosacral therapist, but for many of them breastfeeding is doomed and bottle-feeding doesn't go all that well either. Yes, if a mom wants drugs she should certainly have them, BUT she should make that decision with true INFORMED consent and she should have good labor support available to her.

I have given birth 5 times. My first was born via c-section due to cephalopelvic disproportion (CPD). She weighed 9 lbs 5 oz. My second was an elective cesarean birth, because my first birth was so bad. I wanted to have as much control as possible over the delivery. It was also the only way I could have my husband present. (This was 1983.) I also fired the first anesthesiologist assigned to me. I switched doctors with my third baby and had a trial of labor for VBAC. I ended up having a cesarean due to fetal distress. I did, btw, have the support of a wonderful CNM during my labor. My fourth was born at approximately 26 weeks. When my doc knew that I was going to deliver early, he told me that I didn't need a c-section for a 2 pound baby. He did end up using high-forceps, though, as Katherine heart-rate dropped to zero. My OB apologized for hurting me so much with the forceps. My last baby was another VBAC and was completely unmedicated. I did have some shoulder dystocia which hurt, but nothing I couldn't get through. I walked around when I was in labor, had a heparin lock instead of an IV and had only intermittent fetal monitoring. My middle daughter saw me give birth, btw, and yes, it was in the hospital with mother-baby suites.

None of this is said to shame women about birth, but to empower them.

Btw, I believe that craniosacral work for adults is a bunch of BS, but I've seen it work wonders with babies.

edited for riffle

[FakePigtails]

In a way I think the "natural birth" movement has been regressive. It shames women who do want medication and elective C-sections. Reminds me of how using anesthesia was at first discouraged, because the pain of childbirth was supposed to be the woman's burden after the Fall.

Word. I keep seeing comments around in the way of "if only more women were educated, they would have natural births." Gee, thanks for assuming I'm only planning on getting an epidural when I have kids because I'm just too ignorant to know better :roll:

And yeah, people don't need to be drugged to get dental work done either. But it hurts like a bitch and is terrifying so people will continue to get numbing shots, laughing gas, sedatives, etc. Because people are in fact capable of cost/benefit analyses.