Fundy daughters who are infertile

[rhianna]

If a fundy daughter is found to be infertile before she gets married, what do you think happens? Is she doomed to be a SAHD forever? I think that everyone would be okay with her being married to a male with fertility problems, but I think that men are less likely to find out if they have fertility issues before they actually start to try to have kids. Do you think the fundie community would be okay with her marrying a fertile-but-otherwise-low-status male, under the guise of "God is leading us to be missionaries in *insert super dangerous part of the world here* and we feel it would be unwise to bring children on this journey"?

[CrazySister]

I don't think they'd accept a diagnosis of infertile. They'd just say they'll pray God will open her womb and say Old testament Sarah didn't give birth till she was around 90 so if the woman prays hard enough, is faithful enough and doesn't have *gasp* hidden sin in her life she'll have lots and lots of babies. :roll:

ETA: I also think it's a long-shot she'd recieve a diagnosis pre-engagement (which presumably will be her first ob-gyn/midwife appt) unless she had symptoms that were considered severe enough to warrant a before-courtship appt - is 17 and still hasn't started menstruating or something. I doubt endometriosis, pcos, or anything else would be diagnosed that early unless she were so debilitated by it that she simply couldn't "pray away" whatever the symptom were.

[GeoBQn]

Honestly, I don't think they would ever even get to the point of finding out a daughter is infertile. I was diagnosed with PCOS at 17, but it happened because the following conditions were in place:

1. I had a basic enough knowledge of sexual and reproductive health to know that going several months in a row without menstruating was bad news. A lot of fundy daughters are probably kept in the dark about this area of health.

2. I had the confidence to tell my mother about it, even though I was very squeamish about the subject. While fundy girls are taught to confess everything to their parents, they might draw the line at this.

3. My mother did research to find the best doctor in my area, had no qualms about me seeing a gynecologist or reproductive endocrinologist before marriage, and trusted the doctor enough to listen to his advice. Even if fundies lived in an area with reproductive specialists, they distrust a lot of medical information about sexual health and fertility and I doubt they would let their daughters see any doctors focusing on those areas.

4. My mom had no problems with me going on the Pill, which is standard treatment for many female fertility problems. No way is a fundy family going to allow that for their daughters.

[maybeizfundie]

Not ATI/VF fundy but super conservative anabaptist group---one of my best friends is part of a very conservative brethren group. She had non-hodgekin's lymphoma (I think that's the name) in her early teens. Heavy duty chemotherapy. She's been in remission more than 10 years, so they killed the disease, it seems. but she was told that it was very, very unlikely she'd ever have biological children. So she knew long before she was married. The young man who wanted to marry her was aware that she'd been ill, and she told him upfront that the probability of bio kids was very low, and that didn't put him off. They now have 3 adopted children, two internationally and one domestically.

[doggie]

Sell them into slavery that's what the bible would recommend.Or at least kick them out of the house.

[DistantStar]

I can think of a worse situation -- if her husband is infertile. You just know the woman would be blamed anyway.

ETA: I reread the first post and realized this was if it was found pre-marriage. I'm assuming in that case she wouldn't get married -- but would be blamed for her infertility stemming from sin. Fundies always find ways to blame women for everything.

[NurseNell]

Honestly, I don't think they would ever even get to the point of finding out a daughter is infertile. I was diagnosed with PCOS at 17, but it happened because the following conditions were in place:

1. I had a basic enough knowledge of sexual and reproductive health to know that going several months in a row without menstruating was bad news. A lot of fundy daughters are probably kept in the dark about this area of health.

2. I had the confidence to tell my mother about it, even though I was very squeamish about the subject. While fundy girls are taught to confess everything to their parents, they might draw the line at this.

3. My mother did research to find the best doctor in my area, had no qualms about me seeing a gynecologist or reproductive endocrinologist before marriage, and trusted the doctor enough to listen to his advice. Even if fundies lived in an area with reproductive specialists, they distrust a lot of medical information about sexual health and fertility and I doubt they would let their daughters see any doctors focusing on those areas.

4. My mom had no problems with me going on the Pill, which is standard treatment for many female fertility problems. No way is a fundy family going to allow that for their daughters.

This.

[NurseNell]

Honestly, I don't think they would ever even get to the point of finding out a daughter is infertile. I was diagnosed with PCOS at 17, but it happened because the following conditions were in place:

1. I had a basic enough knowledge of sexual and reproductive health to know that going several months in a row without menstruating was bad news. A lot of fundy daughters are probably kept in the dark about this area of health.

2. I had the confidence to tell my mother about it, even though I was very squeamish about the subject. While fundy girls are taught to confess everything to their parents, they might draw the line at this.

3. My mother did research to find the best doctor in my area, had no qualms about me seeing a gynecologist or reproductive endocrinologist before marriage, and trusted the doctor enough to listen to his advice. Even if fundies lived in an area with reproductive specialists, they distrust a lot of medical information about sexual health and fertility and I doubt they would let their daughters see any doctors focusing on those areas.

4. My mom had no problems with me going on the Pill, which is standard treatment for many female fertility problems. No way is a fundy family going to allow that for their daughters.

Oops, posted twice. So I'll add, this was my daughter's experience too. She had PCOS, went on the pill at 15. Once she was trying to get pregnant it took 3 years the first time, and 6 years the second. Her second pregnancy required her going on an estrogen blocker, after neither clomid or metformin worked. She and her husband would like a third but it may not happen.

[icecreamycakeycake]

Not a problem... sisterwives.

According to the Bible her husband could take a second wife (Sarah/Abraham/Hagar).

...until things get ugly.

[dawbs]

I know that my aunt has some genetic-something-or-other that leads to her being IF (don't know what)--and I know that because of that realization, my mom felt led to tell my dad, pre marriage, that they might be IF and offer him the 'out'.

He told her to not be stupid, they were getting married and may have kids, may not; he was marrying her because loved her, not because he was married to the idea of kids.

It was my dad who, when mom was told after baby sis, that more kids = bad for her, said they should REALLY take permanenet measures as soon as mom was OK w/ it.

I'd like to tink there's more of that, but...I bet there isn't.

I bet there's a lot of "oh, thanks for offering the 'out', but I couldn't take it! That would be showing doubt in God's plan" that gets followed by infertility and a lot of angry resentment.

[Seven Severn]

I can think of a worse situation -- if her husband is infertile. You just know the woman would be blamed anyway.

ETA: I reread the first post and realized this was if it was found pre-marriage. I'm assuming in that case she wouldn't get married -- but would be blamed for her infertility stemming from sin. Fundies always find ways to blame women for everything.

But how would they find this out? Jacking off into a cup is verboten – spilling the seed and all that nonsense.

[BelieveinScience]

I don't think they'd accept a diagnosis of infertile. They'd just say they'll pray God will open her womb and say Old testament Sarah didn't give birth till she was around 90 so if the woman prays hard enough, is faithful enough and doesn't have *gasp* hidden sin in her life she'll have lots and lots of babies. :roll:

ETA: I also think it's a long-shot she'd recieve a diagnosis pre-engagement (which presumably will be her first ob-gyn/midwife appt) unless she had symptoms that were considered severe enough to warrant a before-courtship appt - is 17 and still hasn't started menstruating or something. I doubt endometriosis, pcos, or anything else would be diagnosed that early unless she were so debilitated by it that she simply couldn't "pray away" whatever the symptom were.

Your ETA made me think of something. Since a lot fundies track their daughter's menstrual cycles what happens if she misses a period? Missing periods can be associated with infertility issues, stress etc... Do they auto assume she had premarital sex and force her to take a preg test?

[DistantStar]

But how would they find this out? Jacking off into a cup is verboten – spilling the seed and all that nonsense.

Good point -- but as it seems some QFers will do almost anything medical to produce more babies, it doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility to me that after a spell of no kids they would go ahead with testing. This is after marriage, of course.

If they were consistent and found out somebody was infertile they'd just assume that God wanted it that way and either not have kids or (I wish not) adopt. But logic has nothing to do with Teh Babeeeeeez. We must have Moar Babeeeeeez! God wants us to...even if She actually doesn't!

[failsafe]

I think (?) Daniel knew Lyndsie was infertile before marriage, since she had already had cancer. Or was that after they were married?

[Katiebug]

But how would they find this out? Jacking off into a cup is verboten – spilling the seed and all that nonsense.

Catholics who are so inclined can use a collection condom which is a special lube-free condom with small holes in it; they engage in "the marital embrace" and then get the sample from the condom to the lab within an hour or two, before the swimmers die. In theory the tiny perforations would allow sperm to get through, thus not violating the Catholic Church's rules, but collects enough of a sample so that it can be tested.

I assume fundies doing a fertility workup could use the same thing.

I really doubt that most fundies would know about infertility/potential infertility prior to a marriage. It would only be after a year or two that they'd start to wonder...

[Angri-la]

In my personal fundie experience there was no way they would have known I had fertility issues before marriage. I barely knew what my own body did, and education about sex was extremely limited.

Even if I had gone to a gyno, I appear "normal", but my insides are a rocky place where a man's seed can find no purchase. Well, actually, it finds purchase, it just doesn't root past 3 months.

Only after being married for a year and no baby did I go in and get checked out (by an evil feminist doctor who asked me about my orgasms. I honestly did not know women could have them, but that is another story, and I certainly didn't learn this from personal experience until I left the fundies). The fundies I was hooked up with were very anti-fertility treatment, as it was seen as some kind of spiritual defect, not a physical one, no matter what an MD said. And, of course, my MIL and the entire congregation was praying over my lady parts; good times.

Believe me when I tell you that the most hellish portion of my life was being a married infertile fundie.

[browngrl]

I think that it would be highly unlikely for a fundie girl to know she was infertile before marriage. One of the saddest cases I was involved in involved a young fundie (muslim in this case) woman who came in for investigation of infertility (was recently married). We found out that she had complete androgen insensitivity (wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_a ... y_syndrome) so she was female from all outward appearances and certainly felt female but she was genetically male. She had never had a period but this had raised no flags to anyone in her family. Our team was pretty sure that her fundie husband/family would handle the diagnosis very badly and we were not wrong. The way she was treated by her husband/family never fails to enrage/sadden me.

[Seven Severn]

Even if I had gone to a gyno, I appear "normal", but my insides are a rocky place where a man's seed can find no purchase.

I think I love you.

[Angri-la]

I think I love you.

You caught it, eh? I love you too, now get into the Prayer Closet.

[devilsadvocate]

On the courtship post on the Bates blog , I noticed this comment. I feel bad for the wife. It's really sad that the husband refuses to consider adoption when it's clearly important to his wife.

Kelly,

Thank you for noting that courting can have other names. I think that some people, especially those who chose an alternate path, find the term off putting. When in reality, it IS dating. Dating with a purpose. Thank you!

While I did “date†my husband before we married, we both had pure intentions of getting to know one another (and the others family), as well as finding out what was in each others hearts. That was the time for tender moments and long, loving conversations about our future.. It was a special time for us and we had a very short engagement (3 weeks) because we felt that God had laid it on our hearts to be together. I think that while not everyone agrees, it is a special and much needed time for any couple thinking about marriage. After all, not everyone likes chocolate ice cream do they? Some like Vanilla, others like strawberry. But its all ice cream in the end.

Side question:Maybe this is a Gil question. While my hubby and I were “dating†we had the “how many children do we want†conversation. We agreed to let the Lord decide that for us. We also discussed the “what if we cannot have children†aspect. My husband stands firm that adoption was not something that he felt God had in our plans, and assured me the God would bless us with many children. After 6 yrs of marriage and 2 miscarriages, I want desperately to be a mother. But he remains firm in his convictions about adoption. I love him more than words can say and would never, ever, consider divorce, but my heart aches and I feel jealousies rising inside of myself whenever someone else has a baby. I pray and pray for guidance and for the Lord to turn his heart. He would make such a wonderful and loving father. Any child would be lucky to have him. What is your advice for this situation? I do not want to make my husband think in anyway that I doubt his leadership, but I fear that in time, we will both regret not adopting children and raising a family.

Thank you again for sharing your encouraging lives with us. I am looking forward to your show starting!

God Bless and have a wonderful weekend!

[FaeT]

Your ETA made me think of something. Since a lot fundies track their daughter's menstrual cycles what happens if she misses a period? Missing periods can be associated with infertility issues, stress etc... Do they auto assume she had premarital sex and force her to take a preg test?

Where the hell did you hear this?! These women track their daughters' menstrual cycles?! That is sick. That's boarding sexual abuse. :shudder:

I remember reading a blog or a comment a woman wrote about going to a conference with Nancy Campbell. NC actually told her that her infertility problems were punishment from God for being sinful. How many of these girls - women - are being told they're sinners, being made to feel like they're going to hell, all over something they can't control??

[MrsKay]

In the original "Quiverfull" book, the one by Rick and Jan Hess, the advice is that if you're infertile and you know about it, then God is telling you not to get married. You need to be a SAHD, go on a mission, whatever - just don't waste a viable donor/host organ with your sterile self. I'd give the direct quote - I owned the book when I was teetering on the verge of Fundy-hood - but I burned it. My jacked up reproductive system - I have 3 kids, but have gone through major medical procedures to get them, along with many miscarriages - took offense to the whole "wasted donor/host organ" idea.

[FaeT]

In the original "Quiverfull" book, the one by Rick and Jan Hess, the advice is that if you're infertile and you know about it, then God is telling you not to get married. You need to be a SAHD, go on a mission, whatever - just don't waste a viable donor/host organ with your sterile self. I'd give the direct quote - I owned the book when I was teetering on the verge of Fundy-hood - but I burned it. My jacked up reproductive system - I have 3 kids, but have gone through major medical procedures to get them, along with many miscarriages - took offense to the whole "wasted donor/host organ" idea.

Reasonably so. These people have no regard for how others feel. It's not like anyone in that book ever experienced infertility. And I'm sure that would be an okay reason to divorce - so the fertile one can have children and the infertile one can go on mission. I believe that's even sanctioned by the bible.

[lilah]

I feel bad for the woman who wants to adopt but her husband won't consider it. I bet the bates will tell her to keep praying.

[Maul the Koala]

I just found out in my late 20s that I'm not ovulating almost all the time. The physician told me cheerfully that they'll just put me straight on Clomid when I want to get pregnant. That was devastating. "What do you mean it probably won't happen the good ol' fashioned way?". At least I have other things to occupy my life. I could not imagine being a fundie woman whose sole purpose in life is to produce child after child. It's life-altering for me, for sure. That's almost life-ending for a fundie woman. No fundie man will want them and they've been raised to only be a wife and a mother.