Florida High School Shooting

[Ais]

@HarleyQuinn thanks for the heads up, I’ve just watched it and I’m in tears. I would not be surprised if she makes a career of political activism and I have a feeling that we will see that speech being replayed over the years to illustrate the turning point for gun reform.

 

[VelociRapture]

On 2/17/2018 at 11:15 AM, Evangeline said:

I really really hate seeing people this defeated over the gun control issue. I hate reading things like "it will never happen," etc. People, we have to realize a few things. First, change, especially in the idiocracy that is the US, is not going to be linear. Things are changing but it isn't going to be a quick zip from A to B. We have to be in this for the long haul. Young people are pissed off about this! If you're one of them, great! Be pissed off! If you aren't then stop talking about how impossible this seems and help them!

Next, take a page from the Republican playbook. It look 40 years for their  vision to become a reality. They had plenty of setbacks but you have to admit they didn't just sit around and talk about how it was hopeless. They doubled down, they took help from every degenerate and every soulless monster they could. If Democrats are ever going to survive this shitshow and change this country, they need to knock it off with the hopelessness and the ideological purity tests. Vote,  donate, make calls, register voters, drive people to the polls, keep going, take the long view, and for God's sake, stop with the more-liberal-than-thou arguments. Take any help, from anyone, whether they are progressive or just want their kids to not be murdered and their social security to not be destroyed.

Many people feel defeated and I’m certainly one of them. I’ve witnessed too many shootings where people have claimed “it’ll be the last one” or “change will happen this time” to feel much hope now. That said, I have yet to see one person on this thread or in my actual life who has actually given up. Your points are good ones though and I certainly appreciate you taking the time to remind everyone how to take action. 

[Evangeline]

45 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Many people feel defeated and I’m certainly one of them. I’ve witnessed too many shootings where people have claimed “it’ll be the last one” or “change will happen this time” to feel much hope now. That said, I have yet to see one person on this thread or in my actual life who has actually given up. Your points are good ones though and I certainly appreciate you taking the time to remind everyone how to take action.

Thank you. I'm a Negative Nellie from way back, so I'm also preaching to myself! It's hard to tell who's venting and who's actually giving up. I hope you're right that people aren't. I just know that I see near-constant expressions of hopelessness in my local groups. It's either that or arguing about who's the most progressive instead of uniting behind someone decent who can win. As a Gen X'er, I feel like our complacency and negativity helped get us to where we are now. It should not have taken this long for us to wake up, and now we have a much harder fight. 

[Cleopatra7]

4 hours ago, Evangeline said:

I really really hate seeing people this defeated over the gun control issue. I hate reading things like "it will never happen," etc. People, we have to realize a few things. First, change, especially in the idiocracy that is the US, is not going to be linear. Things are changing but it isn't going to be a quick zip from A to B. We have to be in this for the long haul. Young people are pissed off about this! If you're one of them, great! Be pissed off! If you aren't then stop talking about how impossible this seems and help them!

Next, take a page from the Republican playbook. It look 40 years for their  vision to become a reality. They had plenty of setbacks but you have to admit they didn't just sit around and talk about how it was hopeless. They doubled down, they took help from every degenerate and every soulless monster they could. If Democrats are ever going to survive this shitshow and change this country, they need to knock it off with the hopelessness and the ideological purity tests. Vote,  donate, make calls, register voters, drive people to the polls, keep going, take the long view, and for God's sake, stop with the more-liberal-than-thou arguments. Take any help, from anyone, whether they are progressive or just want their kids to not be murdered and their social security to not be destroyed.

I’ve been reading about the history of the Religious Right for my third (and final, thank Rufus) qualifying exam, and they didn’t win by moderating their views or supporting just any candidate. Rather, they organized themselves into a cohesive block and forced politicians to change to appeal to them, even on a symbolic level. This is why Ronald Reagan, a divorced lapsed Presbyterian who signed a law decriminalizing abortion when he was governor of CA, is practically considered a saint to the Religious Right, while Jimmy Carter, a self professed “born again Christian”, is a non-person. Reagan wanted the Religious Right’s votes and so he told them the things they wanted to hear on the campaign trail and did things as president that he knew would appeal to them, like help put the final nail in the coffin for the ERA. Did Reagan believe it all? It’s not clear, but it didn’t matter because he gave the Religious Right insider status in DC (the same is true of Trump; as long as he rubber stamps the conservative agenda, the Religious Right won’t care if he’s a serial killer).

Even the Democrats are not immune, since they’re always trying to shore up their religious credentials and appeal to those “white working class” voters that they lost when LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act. Say what you will about their philosophy, but at least the GOP is loyal to their base in a way the Democrats aren’t. Could you imagine a Democratic presidential candidate stating that he or she believes that abortion is a social good that helps women or that the government should fund a truth and reconciliation committee to come to terms with the effects of racism and slavery? I certainly can’t. Yet on the Republican side, one can say that women who get abortion should be jailed or that civil rights laws unfairly burden private industry and none of this disqualifies you from pubic life. Real progressive social change almost never comes from electoral politics, but from rabble rousers on the outside forcing those on the inside into making concessions.

To return specifically to the gun issue, I think the only way the NRA crowd would agree to any kind of gun control would be to racialist the issue. They were certainly in favor of gun control laws to disarm the Black Panthers. Discussion of gun control has historically only been up for discussion when it’s black people who have to disarm:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.aljazeera.com/amp/indepth/features/2017/10/gun-control-racist-present-171006135904199.html

There is a long history of Southern blacks owning guns to protect themselves against racist whites, since they knew the police weren’t going to do anything. Early in his career, MLK actually owned a number of guns exactly for this purpose, although Bayard Rustin’s influence caused him to get rid of them, albeit somewhat reluctantly. This article describes what I believe to be a better way to think about guns and gun control:

https://jacobinmag.com/2016/09/gun-control-mass-incarceration-drug-war-nra-shooters

[Evangeline]

@Cleopatra7 I don't disagree with any of that. I certainly don't think Progressives need to moderate their views. What I do think is that they need to stop turning away potential voters and partners because they aren't liberal enough. If a person is willing to vote Democrat on one issue, say gun control, they should not be made to feel they don't belong in the trenches because they don't agree with another part of the platform. I'll give an example from my local group. A member was incensed that the group planned a voting drive at a black church because the denomination is against same-sex marriage. I understand completely that he wasn't comfortable going but I don't understand failing to register voters who WILL vote Democrat  because some of them MIGHT personally agree with their denomination's position on marriage. We want the ability you described to tell politicians what we require, but we can't do that without a significant voting bloc behind us. 

[Cleopatra7]

@Evangeline, obviously I don’t know the details of the event you described, but blacks are probably the most reliably Democratic voting bloc. Regardless of whether the denomination in question supports same sex marriage or not or even the individual parishioners, probably 90 +% of the people who registered that day will vote Democratic. With voting drives the idea is to bring out your base, not try to convert those who are on the fence or hard core supporters from the opposite end of the political spectrum. Despite their party loyalty, blacks have little to show for it, since no Democratic president would ever throw out red meat to the black community the way the GOP does to its conservative base.

To me, the issue is that if the Democrats are just going to be off brand versions of Republicans, there’s no point in supporting them. I originally come from the Deep South where the GOP is essentially the “white people party” and the Democrats are the “black people party,” and the two generally do not meet. Democrats try to appeal to whites at the state level by portraying themselves as slightly saner versions of Republicans by using conservative buzz words like “fiscally conservative” and “family values” and it doesn’t work (think of the Jon Ossoff campaign). All that happens is that the base is demoralized and the Republicans support the real deal rather than an offbrand substitute who may have ties to suspicious POC. If the Democrats refused to consider single payer ten years ago when they had the ability to do so, why should we think that they’d suddenly grow a backbone and decide to tackle gun control and experience harsh blowback from the NRA and its attack dogs? For movement conservatism, abortion, guns, and voodoo economics are all a package deal and non-negotiable, which makes changing anything related to one of these issues very difficult.
 

[laPapessaGiovanna]

On 16/02/2018 at 9:11 PM, nausicaa said:

Sorry for the novel, but after a discussion with a French friend recently I've been thinking about this a lot. I sort of organized all my thoughts below. 

I can tell you that at least the gun confiscations that happened in Australia will never happen here.

Australia did not have a gun lobby as powerful and wealthy as the NRA (in fact Australia's very weak gun lobby had the NRA come in to advise them on messaging and mobilization). It also didn't have the right to bear arms ingrained in its constitution. And there were only six Australian states that needed to come to a consensus. We have fifty, plus a constitution that clearly delineates state versus Federal powers. There is also a gun culture that is so deeply ingrained here, I think it's hard to convey to non-Americans who haven't grown up with it. 

Australia essentially had a forcible buy back program and the number of gun owning households was cut in half (the equivalent of 53 million households in the United States). The logistics of implementing something similar in the United States is impossible for political, social, and logistical reasons. The country is too large, there are too many guns, and the dynamics are too different. I have yet to hear a plausible plan for how this could be done.

Any politician, even a Democrat, who supported such a scheme would be committing political suicide (and we have to be honest, at the end of the day, what any politician wants is to be reelected). It could easily be deemed unconstitutional due to search and seizure laws. And the only organizations I would think who could be deployed to do such extensive checks would be the military or law enforcement, both of which are made up predominately of conservatives who staunchly support the Second Amendment and likely privately own many guns themselves. Most would probably flat out refuse to listen to orders, go on strike, or at the very least do a wink wink nudge nudge to the homeowner with nine semis displayed above his fireplace telling them there are no firearms in his household.  

The way forward for U.S. gun control has to be implementing and expanding waiting periods, stricter background checks, and banning the purchase of semi-automatics. The focus has to be on future gun purchases and manufacture.

All of this to say, the 350 million guns (including 2.5 million AR-15s) currently in the United States? Those aren't going anywhere anytime soon. 

I too think forcibly removing arms would be a very bad idea. You need to make it the American way, leaving people "choice". You can buy back arms in a way that makes it more convenient selling them to the government instead of keeping them. Heavily tax ammunitions. Institute registries, make it easy and free to register weapons, people who are found with unregistered firearms ie during normal traffic checks get fined and the arms seized. Ban assault weapons. Make clear and easy to follow laws, possibly uniformly among the states (this may be the most difficult part)

You have to start somewhere or things will just keep getting worse. Firearms sales seem to have been increasing in the last years and it's not like many of those arms will soon be dumped for wear and tear, they will stay around for a long time and newer sales will keep adding on..

[louisa05]

On 2/16/2018 at 10:24 AM, Screamapillar said:

A fundie lite relative of mine posted this. She got dozens of "AMEN!" and "People NEED JESUS!!!!!" comments on it.

If someone believes this is true, they are not a Christian. An omnipotent God cannot be banned from anyplace. 

[47of74]

On 2/16/2018 at 10:24 AM, Screamapillar said:

A fundie lite relative of mine posted this. She got dozens of "AMEN!" and "People NEED JESUS!!!!!" comments on it.

I'd tell any member of my family who shared something so stupid to go fornicate themselves in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.  (The real one.  Not the reich wing Jeeeezus).  And Rufus.  

This sort of horse manure really irritates me.  These reich wingers screech about how their Jeeeeezus ain't allowed in schools but at the same time they act in a manner that would be most offensive to the actual Jesus Christ.

[mamallama]

So then why are there church shootings?

 

[Carm_88]

13 hours ago, mamallama said:

So then why are there church shootings?

 

Satan trying to take down the true believers, so that he can rid the world of Jesus.  

[onekidanddone]

On 2/17/2018 at 4:13 PM, Ais said:

@HarleyQuinn thanks for the heads up, I’ve just watched it and I’m in tears. I would not be surprised if she makes a career of political activism and I have a feeling that we will see that speech being replayed over the years to illustrate the turning point for gun reform.

 

I watched this three times, and just sent the link to my 14 year old. I've never wanted to push my political views on to my kid. I've thought she should come up with her own.  She knows who I am, and how I feel on Trump and such, I've just not told her she has to feel the same way. It is time now to have frank and open discussions with her. She isn't a little kid anymore. She is the same age as the beautiful children who were killed. She is only two years younger than Travon Martin was when he was hunted and murdered. My girl probably knows more and talks more with her friends about these issues than she would ever let on to me.

This beautiful young woman who is speaking just stole my heart. I am humbled before her. 

[Ais]

@onekidanddone I’m the same, I’ve watched it quite a few times and also the interviews other students have given since. My oldest sons are the same age as many of the victims and survivors. My youngest is the same age as many of those involved in Sandy Hook and my brain simply can’t comprehend them facing this kind of danger at school. We are on the other side of the world but I’ve shared this with my oldest children too. They need to know that age is no barrier to speaking up for what’s right and for those who can’t speak up for themselves.

This young woman is 18 and she has the balls to do what middle aged politicians all over the world don’t. She gives me hope for the future.

[onekidanddone]

Because my kid is getting annoyed with me telling her I love her several times a day. Humor me FJ.  I'm an emotional person.

 

[HermioneSparrow]

https://www.google.com.ar/amp/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/survivor-florida-school-shooting-body-human-shield-protect/story%3fid=53183609

This kid is an immigrant from my country and saved 20 kids. I'm so unbelievably proud of his bravery, a true hero right there.

[onekidanddone]

2 hours ago, Ais said:

This young woman is 18 and she has the balls to do what middle aged politicians all over the world don’t. She gives me hope for the future.

She is 18 and voting in November. She and her friends, and all the kids who are watching her.

[December]

3 hours ago, Ais said:

This young woman is 18 and she has the balls to do what middle aged politicians all over the world don’t. She gives me hope for the future.

I'm so incredibly impressed by all these high schoolers standing up and speaking out. They are awe-inspiring! 

[Ais]

I’m not sure if I’ve linked this properly but I’ve just come across this news story. Is there any truth in it or is it empty words to placate people while they wait for memories to fade?

 

Florida plans to increase legal age for owning automatic weapons from 18 to 21 - Evening Standard https://apple.news/Aw3KScLncQi-3eZt5ubh5nw

[onekidanddone]

I had a talk with my kid this afternoon about the shooting. She said some kids from here middle school are talking about walking out, but she won't. She said it was because her friends aren't and she does not want to be alone. She won't of course be alone, but One Kid gets anxious when not around her own little 'squad' as she calls her group of close friends. Despite my telling her I would support her, she is also afraid of getting in trouble.

She was pretty open and frank with me and asked a lot of  questions. Some I could answer, and others I couldn't. Keeping the lines of communication open is hard. scary and difficult when your kid is 14.  I had to be prepared to admit I don't have all the answers. That even though it is my job to keep her safe, I can't control everything.

When we got home she fed the cat and went into the rabbit hole that is her room, Netflix and Snap Chat. That 20 minutes in the car talking with her is such a gift. Now, I'm persona non grata.

[47of74]

Of course Florida Republicans think porn is more dangerous than an AR-15. 

Quote

According to Florida's legislature the real threat to the health and safety of the state's teens isn't how easy it is for their classmate to legally purchase an AR-15. According to the Tampa Bay Times, the pressing, immediate danger is in all those erotic Tumblrs out there:

The state's House of Representatives approved the resolution by a voice vote on Tuesday. The resolution states a need for education, research and policy changes to protect Floridians, especially teenagers, from pornography.

Republican Rep. Ross Spano says there is research that finds a connection between pornography use and mental and physical illnesses, forming and maintaining intimate relationships and deviant sexual behavior. Spano is also a candidate for attorney general.

The most twisted part of this is the demands by Florida Republicans to research the public health impact of porn, while the CDC is implicitly banned from doing research on gun violence. The 1996 Dickey Amendment specifically blocks the CDC from using its budget to "advocate or promote gun control," and since objective, peer-reviewed, scientific studies consistently show effective gun control would reduce gun violence, there's no research the CDC can do that won't sacrifice its funding.

This is the perv in me talking, but maybe people in Florida should have a mass porn-in that will send the Republicans running screaming for the hills. 

I wonder how many of these same Republicans can be found wide stancing it in an airport can or themselves being avid connoisseurs of the PornHubs, xHamsters, Scary Fuckers, and so on... 

[Rachel333]

Anyone watching the CNN town hall right now? It is intense and these people are not going to let Rubio off easy.

This story has actually stayed in the news longer than I expected. Something does seem to be different this time and I hope it leads to real change.

[47of74]

13 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Anyone watching the CNN town hall right now? It is intense and these people are not going to let Rubio off easy.

This story has actually stayed in the news longer than I expected. Something does seem to be different this time and I hope it leads to real change.

Yeah it must be if LaPierre and Loesch are spewing their NRA brand horseshit like there's no tomorrow. 

Quote

NRA leader Wayne LaPierre spoke at the Conservative Political Action Conference. He says Democrats like House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi of California and Connecticut Sen. Chris Murphy are eager to blame the NRA and are calling "for even more government control."

He says opponents of gun rights want to "sweep under the carpet" the failure of school safety, families "and even the unbelievable failure of the FBI" to prevent the shootings.

LaPierre and NRA spokeswoman Dana Loesch are addressing conservatives at CPAC.

Loesch says many in the media "love mass shootings," adding, "crying white mothers are ratings gold."

Hey Wayne, Dana?  FUCK you. 

[47of74]

And now the basement dwellers of the NRA are sending out death threats.  Nice. 

Quote

David Hogg, 17, went from Florida high school student to mass shooting survivor to telegenic advocate for gun-control laws in a few days. And just as quickly, online conspiracy theorists began spinning viral lies attacking the teenager’s credibility.

The wild allegations online have also taken on a more dangerous tone, she said. Boldrick said her family has received death threats online.

“I’m under so much stress,” she said describing her state a week after the shooting. “I’m angry and exhausted. Angry, exhausted and extremely proud.”

These people are sick fucks.  The NRA is worse than al-Qaida or ISIS.  People not liking my attitude can kiss my ass. 

[front hugs > duggs]

This last mass shooting has hit a little bit close to home for me. My cousin was hiding in that school and because he was luckily in a building across campus from the shooting, he was one of the last to be released by SWAT. My aunt and grandma live within a mile from the school and I was worried for them when the shooter was at large. The following days my Facebook was filled with shared posts from my family of parents looking for their children, which were followed by RIP posts from my family's friends for their children. My family has gone to several funerals and sat Shiva with their friends who had to bury their children. My cousin posted her yearbook from 2016 including David Hogg's picture to prove he was a student as of two years ago, and not some "leftist ploy for gun control". I have been having nightmares of being shot in public, and I live way up the east coast so far removed from what those poor kids have gone though. I can't even imagine what my cousin and his 3,000 peers are going through. 

I used to identify as fiscally conservative, in favor of a smaller government, whilst being socially liberal. Because of this, I typically voted Republican as a teenager into my early twenties (I did NOT vote for Trump). I know I can never vote this way again, that there is too much at stake. I am so proud of all the Parkland students (and other Florida students standing with them in solidarity) of not letting this be forgotten. I am so empowered by their activism and demand for change. I am hopeful for future generations and their unwillingness to stand idly by, waiting for the "adults" to spur change. I haven't felt this much hope during this presidency as I do right now, and it has little to do with the people who are in Washington.

[Carm_88]

I wonder how many murdered children will be enough for the NRA and Republicans?