What Now?

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Snarkylark said:

They believe that life begins at conception and that abortion is murder. How do you respond when they say that it's illegal to kill someone so why is it ok to kill the unborn?

Point out that they probably don't actually treat a fetus like a baby. Are they wanting every single woman who miscarries investigated for child murder? If a woman does something that might bring harm to a fetus do they want her investigated for child neglect? Are they wanting the mother of still born babies to immediately be investigated for murder? I have found that that usually stumps them and they are forced to admit that there really is a difference between a fetus and baby who is already born. And if they are supporting the GOP policies that cause more abortions, it is always handy to point out that the way they vote is killing babies. 

I think the democratic party needs to not just push being pro-choice, but also push that the want to have policies that lower abortion rates. There are still huge amounts of people who only hear "the democrats want to kill babies". They really need to be more vocal on discussing fact based ways to lower abortion rates and then push the GOP into the position to defend their policies that raise abortion. 

 

 

[smittykins]

And what about the fertilized eggs that are naturally passed from the mother's body?

I can't do much since I'm unemployed, but I changed my Amazon Smile charity to Planned Parenthood.

[Snarkylark]

44 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Point out that they probably don't actually treat a fetus like a baby. Are they wanting every single woman who miscarries investigated for child murder? If a woman does something that might bring harm to a fetus do they want her investigated for child neglect? Are they wanting the mother of still born babies to immediately be investigated for murder? I have found that that usually stumps them and they are forced to admit that there really is a difference between a fetus and baby who is already born. And if they are supporting the GOP policies that cause more abortions, it is always handy to point out that the way they vote is killing babies. 

I think the democratic party needs to not just push being pro-choice, but also push that the want to have policies that lower abortion rates. There are still huge amounts of people who only hear "the democrats want to kill babies". They really need to be more vocal on discussing fact based ways to lower abortion rates and then push the GOP into the position to defend their policies that raise abortion. 

 

 

But miscarriage and stillbirth isn't the same as elective abortion. That argument won't work. BUT, as far as drinking and smoking while pregnant- and pressing charges *might get their attention. Idk

[Scribber]

There may have been some men who would never vote for a woman. I know Lutherans don't allow female pastors or women to vote in church matters. But that isn't what I saw as the reason people I know wouldn't vote for Hillary. 

Some synods of Lutherans, true. Look into the ELCA - they are pretty liberal. My sister is a pastor through the ELCA. Her first job as an assistant pastor was under a lesbian senior pastor.

[formergothardite]

18 minutes ago, Snarkylark said:

But miscarriage and stillbirth isn't the same as elective abortion. That argument won't work. BUT, as far as drinking and smoking while pregnant- and pressing charges *might get their attention. Idk

If a a fetus is the same as a child then you would investigate just like if a child suddenly and mysteriously died. If I said my child suddenly died, no one would give me hugs and just trust when I said I did nothing that could have caused it. There would be an investigation to see what happened and to see if I did anything that contributed to her death. If you are going to treat a fetus like a child then you have to treat every single miscarriage and still birth like it is an unexplained child death and investigate the mother to ensure she did nothing to cause the death of the child. But, let's face it, no one but Pence is going to be that extreme, but it does make people pause to realize they don't really treat a fetus like a baby. 

I think Pence is going to haunt my nightmares. 

[mausi]

2 hours ago, FlamingFundie said:

I don't think America wasn't ready necessarily for a woman president-- I think they just didn't want THAT PARTICULAR woman, if that makes sense. I live in Trump Land it seems, so perhaps I am jaded. (Which I am slowly seeing might be the case because there is just so.much.unrest all over social media right now.)

I agree with Gloria Steinem's take on this topic:

Quote

Yet I also have to admit that, in answer to the question I’m most often asked, I hoped but never quite believed I would see a female president in my lifetime. At least, not a woman like Hillary Clinton.

If a first female president were someone like, say, Margaret Thatcher, Sarah Palin, or another woman who knew how to play the game and win, I wouldn’t have been surprised. But Hillary Clinton didn’t just play the game; she changed the rules.

She insisted that women’s rights are human rights, that women can decide the fate of our own bodies, that workers of all races should get paid the same as white men for the same work, that fathers can and should be equal parents, that women’s rights and children’s rights should be fundamental to foreign policy, and that global warming was a reality. That’s why she was, and always has been, supported more by women than by men, more by voters of color than by white voters, and more by scientists than creationists. It’s also why she is deeply and vehemently resented.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/10/after-donald-trump-win-americans-organizing-us-politics

[FlamingFundie]

And yet people couldn't look past the email scandals, Benghazi, and her political background. Im so sick of elections anymore being "how can I smear my competitor and make them look worse than myself" instead of "Here's why Im the candidate for the job, the good things I can do..." Bah. It's all a huge disheartening system.

[Snarkylark]

43 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

If a a fetus is the same as a child then you would investigate just like if a child suddenly and mysteriously died. If I said my child suddenly died, no one would give me hugs and just trust when I said I did nothing that could have caused it. There would be an investigation to see what happened and to see if I did anything that contributed to her death. If you are going to treat a fetus like a child then you have to treat every single miscarriage and still birth like it is an unexplained child death and investigate the mother to ensure she did nothing to cause the death of the child. But, let's face it, no one but Pence is going to be that extreme, but it does make people pause to realize they don't really treat a fetus like a baby. 

I think Pence is going to haunt my nightmares. 

Oooooooooh, gotcha!

58 minutes ago, Scribber said:

 

Some synods of Lutherans, true. Look into the ELCA - they are pretty liberal. My sister is a pastor through the ELCA. Her first job as an assistant pastor was under a lesbian senior pastor.

 

Right. I should have said WELS. 

[VelociRapture]

53 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

If a a fetus is the same as a child then you would investigate just like if a child suddenly and mysteriously died. If I said my child suddenly died, no one would give me hugs and just trust when I said I did nothing that could have caused it. There would be an investigation to see what happened and to see if I did anything that contributed to her death. If you are going to treat a fetus like a child then you have to treat every single miscarriage and still birth like it is an unexplained child death and investigate the mother to ensure she did nothing to cause the death of the child. But, let's face it, no one but Pence is going to be that extreme, but it does make people pause to realize they don't really treat a fetus like a baby. 

I think Pence is going to haunt my nightmares. 

This explanation makes my skin crawl so much. As someone who had a miscarriage, it really bothers me that it takes this much to convince some people. But if it's effective and gets them to think that's what actually counts.

[RoseWilder]

Another point to make with the anti-abortion crowd was one I found in this article: 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html

Quote

Due to hormone imbalances, genetic anomalies, and a number of unknown factors, between 50 percent and 75 percent of embryos fail to implant in the uterus and are passed with the monthly menstrual flow. If we agree with pro-life advocates that every embryo is as morally valuable as an adult human, this means that more than half of humans immediately die. This fact provides pro-life advocates with an opportunity to follow through on their convictions. Surely, a moral response to a pandemic of this magnitude would be to rally the scientific community to devote the vast majority of its efforts to better understanding why this happens and trying to stop it. Yet the same pro-life leaders who declare that every embryo is morally equivalent to a fully developed child have done nothing to advocate such research. … Even if medicine could save only 10 percent of these embryos — and we don’t know because no one has cared enough to ask — it would be saving more lives than curing HIV, diabetes, and malaria combined. One could say that this massive loss of human life is natural, and therefore, humans are under no obligation to end it. But it is not clear why the same argument could not be used to justify complacency in the face of AIDS, cancer, heart disease, and other natural causes of human death. 

The author then goes on to question why the anti-abortion crowd isn't holding 5ks and other fundraising efforts and pushing for research to figure out how to prevent miscarriages. 

How much money to you think the Republicans in the next administration are going to allocate to research on ending miscarriages? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess $0

[VixenToast]

Ugh. I put up a status on FB that was basically a pledge stating to all the people who may become marginalized in this presidency, that I stand with you, that I will stop people from harming you with my words and my body if needed.  My 18 year old cousin put up a Leo DiCaprio meme saying I was butt hurt. I negated by stating it's not butt hurt to be concerned about the safety of other people. The he tagged a cousin on his moms side. That's when all hell broke loose. He called me a crazy liberal who mooches off the government AND I SNAPPED! I cursed the damned fool and said that I work two jobs and make too much for welfare. Then I tagged my aunt, mom to cousin who posted the meme and aunt of the tagged Trumperfuck, so she could contain the vile filth. Ugh. Then Trumperfuck kept going on with other stupid things. I finished by saying the post was about standing up to bullies, and that he was a bully, and that love still trumps hate. I've never been so upset. My aunt just replied and I'm half terrified to even read it. I might ignore it. Idk. Ughhhhhh. Fuck this election.

[mausi]

My grandparents were German Jews. As a child I remember hearing my grandfather say he did not think it could happen; the rule of law; Bildung. So, better safe than sorry. Better prepared (or over prepared) than caught unaware. Some reading to consider:

 

Autocracy: Rules for Survival

Masha Gessen

Quote

However well-intentioned, this talk assumes that Trump is prepared to find common ground with his many opponents, respect the institutions of government, and repudiate almost everything he has stood for during the campaign. In short, it is treating him as a “normal” politician. There has until now been little evidence that he can be one.

Quote

But Trump is anything but a regular politician and this has been anything but a regular election. Trump will be only the fourth candidate in history and the second in more than a century to win the presidency after losing the popular vote. He is also probably the first candidate in history to win the presidency despite having been shown repeatedly by the national media to be a chronic liar, sexual predator, serial tax-avoider, and race-baiter who has attracted the likes of the Ku Klux Klan. Most important, Trump is the first candidate in memory who ran not for president but for autocrat—and won.

Quote

I have lived in autocracies most of my life, and have spent much of my career writing about Vladimir Putin’s Russia. I have learned a few rules for surviving in an autocracy and salvaging your sanity and self-respect. It might be worth considering them now:

http://www2.nybooks.com/daily/s3/nov/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival.html

[SpurgeonSquarepants]

1 hour ago, VixenToast said:

Ugh. I put up a status on FB that was basically a pledge stating to all the people who may become marginalized in this presidency, that I stand with you, that I will stop people from harming you with my words and my body if needed.  My 18 year old cousin put up a Leo DiCaprio meme saying I was butt hurt. I negated by stating it's not butt hurt to be concerned about the safety of other people. The he tagged a cousin on his moms side. That's when all hell broke loose. He called me a crazy liberal who mooches off the government AND I SNAPPED! I cursed the damned fool and said that I work two jobs and make too much for welfare. Then I tagged my aunt, mom to cousin who posted the meme and aunt of the tagged Trumperfuck, so she could contain the vile filth. Ugh. Then Trumperfuck kept going on with other stupid things. I finished by saying the post was about standing up to bullies, and that he was a bully, and that love still trumps hate. I've never been so upset. My aunt just replied and I'm half terrified to even read it. I might ignore it. Idk. Ughhhhhh. Fuck this election.

I'm sorry. This is why I won't and have never been on Facebook. I know it would evoke WAY too much rage from me.

[RoseWilder]

I'll be adding to my list of what to do now, emailing the mainstream media and asking "Why aren't you covering Trump's ties to Russia? Why have you ignored it all along? Why are you continuing to ignore it now?"

http://linkis.com/www.esquire.com/news/kVHVN

Every couple of days a new story emerges that ties Trump to Russia and yet most of the mainstream media is silent about it. This is a travesty. 

[hoipolloi]

49 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

I'll be adding to my list of what to do now, emailing the mainstream media and asking "Why aren't you covering Trump's ties to Russia? Why have you ignored it all along? Why are you continuing to ignore it now?"

http://linkis.com/www.esquire.com/news/kVHVN

Every couple of days a new story emerges that ties Trump to Russia and yet most of the mainstream media is silent about it. This is a travesty. 

There are emerging stories that the FBI's counter-intelligence branch recently got a FISA warrant to investigate the relationship between Trump & some allies and Russia:

Quote

The FISA warrant was granted in connection with the investigation of suspected activity between the [the private] server [in Trump Tower] and two banks, SVB Bank and Alfa Bank. However, it is thought in the intelligence community that the warrant covers any ‘US person’ connected to this investigation, and thus covers Donald Trump and at least three further men who have either formed part of his campaign or acted as his media surrogates. The warrant was sought, they say, because actionable intelligence on the matter provided by friendly foreign agencies could not properly be examined without a warrant by US intelligence as it involves ‘US Persons’ who come under the remit of the FBI and not the CIA. Should a counter-intelligence investigation lead to criminal prosecutions, sources say, the Justice Department is concerned that the chain of evidence have a basis in a clear  warrant.

I hope that the daily intelligence briefings that Trump is getting are seeded with false information that could be identified if it turns up in communications from Russia.

[formergothardite]

6 hours ago, hoipolloi said:

I hope that the daily intelligence briefings that Trump is getting are seeded with false information that could be identified if it turns up in communications from Russia.

The fact that he is getting daily intelligence is terrifying. I have no doubt he is connected to Russia and I hope that he is being closely watched so they can catch it quickly if he is selling info. 

[VelociRapture]

I've been making daily posts on the election each day on Facebook. This is my post this morning:

Quote

This morning, I'd like to build off my post yesterday and specifically address those people I know who voted or supported Trump. I'm not going to name anyone specifically because I don't feel it's entirely fair to shame anyone for their vote - especially on social media and especially because of how uncertain the world is right now. But if you voted for Trump and you are a decent human being, please know that I'm addressing you here.

Yesterday, I talked about why I and millions of others are concerned and worried about the election results. I've seen many posts from Trump supporters on articles claiming we should be moving forward - so today, I want to let you know ways you can actually help to move the country forward in a positive way.

- If you voted for Trump then please be vocal in your opposition to the horrible things he may say in the future. If he over generalized about any demographic or he says something outright offensive, then send him or his Administration an email letting him know that you support him as President but he needs to stop with the offensive or bigoted language. Because speaking in a manner intentionally crafted to be divisive (and the way he speaks is absolutely meant to be divisive) isn't going to solve anything and is only going to make matters worse for all of us.

- Talk with those of us who are concerned or scared. Ask us what's on our minds. Don't belittle us or ignore our concerns or tell us we're being dramatic. We aren't. We are responding directly to all the rhetoric you're candidate has spewed for the last year and a half. Actually listen when we respond and let us know how you intend to prevent what's worrying us from happening. 

- If you see an act of verbal or physical violence being carried out by a Trump supporter, step in and do something to help the person being attacked. There is no excuse at all for failing to help another human in need. Same goes for non-Trump supporters who see a Trump supporter being attacked as well. At the end of the day, we're all human beings and we all deserve to feel safe in our own country. No one is better than or more deserving of safety and security than anyone else.

- If Trump proposes legislation you disagree with, let him and your Congressional Representatives know. The can't adequately represent what you believe if you don't inform them of your beliefs. If he proposes legislation that is homophobic, racist, sexist, or xenophobic and you disagree with that, then speak out against it.

- Finally, know that as a Trump voter you have a moral obligation to help when you can. It's not up to those who have been bullied or abused to forgive their abuser. It's up to the bully to make amends, correct the behavior, and show they've actually changed for the better. The President Elect has proven this is difficult for him to do time and again - he needs you, his supporters, to remind him that it's his job as the future President to set the tone for reconciliation and healing. The nation cannot and will not move forward unless he leads the way.

Everyone wants a better future - for ourselves, our children, and our nation. We don't always agree on the specifics, but a better future has always been a common goal that every American shares. If you truly want to see the nation heal and you truly want everyone to move forward, then please work with us instead of against us.

I think there are likely some Trumpsters out there who are genuine about wanting to heal the nation and move forward. Definitely not all of them... but some. I'm hoping this reaches those of them I know personally and helps them see there are things they can (and should) do to help with that. 

[RoseWilder]

Some advice on what to do next from someone who used to work in a Congressional office: 

https://twitter.com/editoremilye/status/797243415922515970

 

[FlamingFundie]

4 minutes ago, RoseWilder said:

Some advice on what to do next from someone who used to work in a Congressional office: 

https://twitter.com/editoremilye/status/797243415922515970

 

That is probably the most helpful thing Ive read about all of this. I have often declined to "write to my congressman" because I felt like they would just shove my thoughts away. Knowing exactly WHO to talk to and WHAT to say and what else to DO sounds like something I could actually accomplish. Thank you for posting this!

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, RoseWilder said:

Some advice on what to do next from someone who used to work in a Congressional office: 

https://twitter.com/editoremilye/status/797243415922515970

 

Just added the phone numbers for the local offices of my Senators and Representative to my phone. 

I'm going to annoy them so much. Not that I really need to because they're Democrats and already committed to protecting people from racism, sexism, ableism, and xenophobia. But still. 

----------

On another note: When it comes to FJ, maybe we could have a running thread on this forum where we can stay updated about legislation and proposed bills? I know a lot of people are busy and don't always have time to research things, so it could be helpful to have a place where we can access that information quickly. That way we know when something big is coming up and we know when to start bugging our Reps on a regular basis. 

(I'm also being selfish here because I'm going to have a newborn in January and I'm going to be seriously sleep deprived. So any help would be great. Lol!)

[SilverBeach]

19 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

Even as a #nevertrumper, I don't think that messing with the electoral college voters is a good idea. 

I think it is a great idea. The EC was created to prevent the unfit from taking office. I posted about this somewhere else on FJ. Who could be more unfit than this abomination?  May as well use the EC for the purpose it was created while it still exists. 

That said, its time for the EC to go the way of the horse and buggy. The electorate is far more educated and sophisticated than it was 240 years ago, current election notwithstanding. That is twice now in this millennium that the will of the people has been circumvented (Al Gore won the popular vote in 2000). How is this a democracy?

 

I have called my congressional offices many times over the years and they have been very responsive. I would call and write, fuck it. 

[FlamingFundie]

Im reading several people discussing the vote being overruled and getting Hillary to the White House. Do you think this would change Washington still insomuch that they realize now just how upset the people are about the politicians/policies in place? What lasting effects might we see now that the proverbial bird has been flipped at Washington? How might this change what Hillary had wanted to do if she had won--do you think she would waver on any platforms, or somehow listen to/do more for The People? It is completely fascinating to me that this is actually possible!

[Destiny]

On another note: When it comes to FJ, maybe we could have a running thread on this forum where we can stay updated about legislation and proposed bills? I know a lot of people are busy and don't always have time to research things, so it could be helpful to have a place where we can access that information quickly. That way we know when something big is coming up and we know when to start bugging our Reps on a regular basis.

This is something I was thinking about yesterday in the shower - how to keep this anger actively engaged. I want to see this forum continue to get traffic and have FJ be a part of the solution, so I guess the answer is yes, but it has to be from all of us. I have no way of doing it alone, nor do any of us, so I guess the old, "if you see something, say something", applies here.

Also, I'd like to put a sticky post up with information on how to contact legislators, among other things. What do you guys think would be helpful / belongs in that post?

[VelociRapture]

22 minutes ago, Destiny said:

This is something I was thinking about yesterday in the shower - how to keep this anger actively engaged. I want to see this forum continue to get traffic and have FJ be a part of the solution, so I guess the answer is yes, but it has to be from all of us. I have no way of doing it alone, nor do any of us, so I guess the old, "if you see something, say something", applies here.

Also, I'd like to put a sticky post up with information on how to contact legislators, among other things. What do you guys think would be helpful / belongs in that post?

Things to include:

1. Links to Directories for the Senate and the House:

http://www.senate.gov/senators/contact/

http://m.house.gov/representatives/

2. Maybe include a note that calling is most effective, but that writing can be done too?

3. If needed, I have the template letter I posted on here. If you want to include it in the sticky note just let me know and I can give it to you guys somehow.

4. Maybe include a list of things that could be helpful too? Like the every Clinton supporter donating $1.00 a month to a charity like PP or ACLU I mentioned somewhere? 

ETA: Oh!!! Two more -

5. A reminder to get involved on the state and local level. I just emailed my State Rep to see what's being done concerning Gay Conversion Therapy for minors in my state and to urge her to help support or introduce legislation banning it. I plan to call too if I don't hear back soon. 

This one is especially important because it can help limit the impact of some of the harsher things Trump's administration (specifically Pence) may seek to do. 

6. ... I swear I had another suggestion... Pregnancy brain is a real struggle...

[Childless]

19 hours ago, Snarkylark said:

Even as a #nevertrumper, I don't think that messing with the electoral college voters is a good idea. Now that that's out of the way, back along the lines of anti-choicers, pro-lifers, and how to educate them. They believe that life begins at conception and that abortion is murder. How do you respond when they say that it's illegal to kill someone so why is it ok to kill the unborn? Using the argument that it is the mother's right to choose because it's her body and the fetus depends on her doesn't work because, really, all infants and children require someone else to be able to survive. 

All infants and children require care.  They do not require you to give up your bodily autonomy like a fetus.