Haredi Graffiti at Yad Vashem

[FaustianSlip]

This just makes me so angry, I'm sort of at a loss for words. Apparently, someone spray painted graffiti all over Yad Vashem (the Holocaust memorial/museum in Israel), including such gems as, “Hitler, thank you for the Holocaust,†and, “Jews, wake up, the evil Zionist regime doesn’t protect us, it jeopardizes us.†The graffiti was signed "World Haredi Jewry."

The police are saying that it looks like it was done by Haredi extremists, though of course other people are pointing out that it could have been chilonim (secular Israelis) looking to frame Haredim. I can't quite decide what I think, but it almost doesn't matter. If the situation in Israel is so screwed up that some fucked up individual would think that this is a good idea, I just don't even....

I originally heard about this courtesy of Failed Messiah, who I know has his own agenda, but it's also in the Jerusalem Post and other papers. Oddly, I couldn't find any obvious mention of it on CNN when I looked, but with the situation in Syria and the economy, there are certainly bigger things going on in the world, so maybe that's not so weird.

This is apparently what happens when you give a fundamentalist religious group special privileges, exemptions and stipends and then stoke resentments in the rest of the (less religious) community. Clearly, this is working out so well for everyone involved. Also, how the hell is security at Yad Vashem so poor that no one saw this while it was unfolding and there's not sufficient security footage of the vandalism to make an arrest? That seems completely bizarre to me.

[geniebelle6901]

“Hitler, thank you for the Holocaust,â€

WTF?? :evil: That sounds like something an anti-Semitic group would say, and again WTF! :evil:

[pomology]

WTF?? :evil: That sounds like something an anti-Semitic group would say, and again WTF! :evil:

No, sadly it's par for the course for certain Jews. I'll never forget about how some Haredi Jews attended Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's "The Holocaust is a Hoax" Convention several years back. It's sick, but it doesn't really surprise me.

[Esther]

I was told yesterday by an Ultra-Orthodox Jew that liberal Judaism is to blame for the Holocaust.

So yeah, I believe this.

It makes me sad.

[SisiL78]

I hate the Charedi/Haredi... Truly and totally. Its a shame we haven't excommunicated someone since Spinoza (and he didn't deserve it!)

Anyways, thankfully hopefully they are in the minority. My answer for them is that they should stop living off of the largess of the Isreali government and its secular taxpayers if they are so unhappy with the "regime".

These are the people who don't work, don't go to university, and don't fight in the military. I guess every country has its fundies (anyone live in a country that is sans fundies?). But the Charedi have gotten so angry and they seem to have so much vitriol pent up in them that its awfully scary. As we know they will stoop quite low, even to assassination.

I wonder how long until they become terrorists or face some real payback from the Israelis they so hate. Meanwhile I have read several articles where Charedi and other ultra ultra Orthodox men and women leave their families and go to the military and then to University. In some families nearly every child had left and become either normal Orthodox or secular. So, at least, there is some backlash from the children of these nutjobs who leave their parent's thinking. Its much like the fundies we discuss here. Living in extreme poverty and breeding while Dad barely works and mostly focuses on religion and where Mom is trying to make ends meet all of the time is not an attractive prospect for most children. Just like Razing Ruth's family, only 1 of her siblings actually still does the fundy thing in his adult life and another is fundie light whilst 2-3 others are like her and completely out of there... I wouldn't be surprised if her other siblings also follow her lead. Its just not self sustaining to raise your children in fear and hate of the outside world, especially in this day and age. Furthermore, its really hard in a place like Israel where most people live in an urban environment to avoid seeing the trappings of modern life and wanting that stuff even if you've been raised to believe that all of that is evil.

Anyways, I hope they find these guys and send them to prison for a while. I'm really hoping its not some stupid secular kids trying to frame Charedis... I think most people have too much respect for Yad Vashem to do that. I would hope even the really bad punks out there would be too ashamed to do that. There is something solemn and holy about Yad Vashem that I cannot describe. Whether its in the museum itself or outside where they have planted trees in honor of righteous gentiles there is this feeling. I had to hang out in the gift shop (as David Tennant Dr. Who says "There's always a little shop") while the rest of my tour was in there because I got so overwhelmed.

[fluttershies]

Why do the Haredi think this way about the Holocaust? I don't understand why anyone would be thankful for an event like that, much less when members of one's own cultural group were killed.

[geniebelle6901]

Oh, I did not know that. I'm not very familiar with Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox Judaism. I too would like to know why the Haredi feel this way.

[SisiL78]

Why do the Haredi think this way about the Holocaust? I don't understand why anyone would be thankful for an event like that, much less when members of one's own cultural group were killed.

They believe in some extremist version of why the Messiah will come. Until the Messiah comes they think that Israel shouldn't be under a Jewish government. They also believe that the Holocaust was a punishment from G-d for Jews becoming too liberal and secular. Basically, they are much like the preachers who believe that natural and man made disasters are G-d's way of punishing the non-believing heathens and its a good thing for culling the herd of the heathens. These are people who would consider me not Jewish because I am wearing pants right now. Even though we both believe in a religion that has almost never ex-communicated anyone they have basically excommunicated 99 percent of Jewry (perhaps more).

They would even consider Chabad Lubavitch and other ultra Orthodox sects to be worthy of hate b/c these people don't shun us liberal and secular Jews. They are a very small minority of an already tiny minority but they are vocal and pull sh*t like this on occasion when they aren't getting noticed.

Its like explaining the fundies discussed in this blog. Its hard to explain. You get a charismatic leader together with people who are lost and/or angry and they grow more and more extremist. Its sad.

[emmiedahl]

There is a certain train of thought that the holocaust happened because of secular Judaism. So it was a wake-up call to be more religious.

[Godlesspanther-2-]

There is a certain train of thought that the holocaust happened because of secular Judaism. So it was a wake-up call to be more religious.

Yes, and that train of thought was going on among some ultra-Orthodox German Jews during the Nazi regime. God was punishing the Jews because their were too many of them who were not obeying God's commandments.

Strict authoritarian mindset of any kind will automatically blame the victim.

[fluttershies]

So it's a similar kind of mindset to Protestant fundies calling Catholics the anti-Christ, because they're 'corrupted'?

[shesinsane]

It wasn't a "cause", but to some extent secularism made the Jews more vulnerable in the Holocaust. When the Nazis took over and started passinging "racial" laws, many secular Jews didn't worry because they were Germans (or Austrians, Hungarians, etc) first, Jews second, they didn't think these Jewish codes would apply to them. This false sense of security kept many from fleeing when they had the chance. I recently read a book by a Uboat (the term for Jews that posed as Christians to survive within Nazi territories). After their city was liberated, this woman explained to the American soldier she was a Jewish refugee, not a Nazi officers wife (she did marry a Nazi but he didn't know she was really a Jew). The man asked her a question in Yiddish, and she didn't understand. Based on that he told her she wasn't a Jew. She explained she was Viennese - most of the Jews there didn't speak Yiddish and only went to temple on High Holy Days. Not Jewish enough for the Orthodox Jews, but certainly Jewish enough for the Nazis.

This story has me thinking of Yitzak Rabin and the radial Jew who killed him. Someone in the group is always going to disagree and cause trouble, even if the group has dealt with centuries of persecution and years of attempted extermination.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Fuck whoever did this, whether it was actually a group like the Neturei Karta or just a punk looking to cause trouble.

Brief over-simplification to describe who is who:

Orthodox is an umbrella term to describe everyone who believes that the Torah was literally given at Mount Sinai - both the written 5 Books of Moses and a larger set of oral instructions (later written down as part of the Talmud).

Within Orthodoxy, you have Modern Orthodox and Haredi (ultra-Orthodox).

Modern Orthodox are part of the outside world, get advanced secular education as well as religious education and are less sheltered. In Israel, they tend to be identified with the Religious Zionist movement. Here's where people tend to get confused: the Religious Zionists tend to see the establishment of the State of Israel as not only a good thing from a secular POV, but as something of religious significance which indicates that we are entering the Messianic Era. Traditionally, this group got along with secular Israelis because they served in the army and viewed secular Israelis as playing an important role in bringing the Messianic Era, even if they weren't religious themselves. In the mid-1990s, when Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir engaged in terrorism and assassination to derail the Oslo process, that relationship began to sour as many suddenly went from being seen as heroes to being seen as fanatics (a view which sometimes extended to all Anglos - the group which tended to live in Israel for ideological instead of practical reasons).

The ultra-Orthodox, meanwhile, can be divided into a few groups:

1. A small number of Zionist, and known as "Chardal". There are some Chabad in this group.

2. A large number are simply non-Zionist. They are attached to the Land of Israel and care about religious sites, but they don't think that the actual State is a big deal and don't think that the modern establishment of the State was an event with religious significance. They will cooperate with the government, but usually do so to advocate for their own communities and causes.

3. A few groups, particularly Satmar, are anti-Zionist. They will criticize the non-Zionist group for cooperating with the government, and will refuse any sort of cooperation, even if it means foregoing benefits.

4. At the loonie fringe, you have the Neturei Karta. They are not only anti-Zionist, but will actively support Israel's enemies, even if those enemies plan to kill Jews.

Group 2 says that even with the existence of the modern State of Israel, we still don't have the Messiah and we need to focus on that.

Groups 3 and 4 go farther, and believe that the State was established too soon and is actually preventing the Messiah from coming. They also see the Holocaust as a divine punishment, caused by more liberal Jews and Zionism. As you can imagine, these groups do not play nicely with other Jews.

[RR88]

FaustianSlip, you're right. This is the inevitable result of the special treatment received by the ultra-religious public.

[RR88]

"…and will refuse any sort of cooperation, even if it means foregoing benefits."

If only!

[2xx1xy1JD]

"…and will refuse any sort of cooperation, even if it means foregoing benefits."

If only!

Do you know for a fact that Satmar accepts benefits? I'm not an expert on Satmar, but the information I had was that there was a deep split between them and other Hasidic groups like Ger because the latter participates in the political process and accepts benefits.

[PennySycamore]

No, sadly it's par for the course for certain Jews. I'll never forget about how some Haredi Jews attended Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's "The Holocaust is a Hoax" Convention several years back. It's sick, but it doesn't really surprise me.

WHAT???? :shock:

[FaustianSlip]

Oh, yeah. This happened a few yeas ago. Google a bit, and you'll find pictures of them hugging Ahmadinejad like they're BFF's.