My trip to Mars Hill

[bicyclecat]

I mentioned a while back that I live pretty close to Mars Hill church and would head on over, if I had a free Sunday. Then work and life got the best of me and I didn't have much time to post or even lurk. But, as promised, I did attend a service recently.

It's not all that strange of a church, really, although it is a "hip" church and definitely not the buttoned down traditional place that most would expect. Prior to the service, they were playing some non descript house/ techno music and the people around me were very nice, but not overly love bomby. Lots of smiles and "glad to see you" type comments. They guy sitting next to me had some pretty impressive dreads and, on the other side, was a couple that I'd guess were in their late 50's. The congregation were mostly 20-30 something singles, with plenty of newlyweds and a few children. I did go to an evening service, so I'd imagine that the demographics were a bit different.

The service opened in prayer and then a Christian rock band played a few songs. One thing that I must say is that the music was AWESOME! They had somewhat of an 80's style Cure/ Joy Division style and they were really quite talented. The "lead pastor" made some announcements and introduced the sermon, which was a prerecorded sermon that Mark Driscoll had given earlier in the day. Not sure where it was filmed, but I don't think it was at the Ballard church that I went to.

Yes, the sermon was a video taped sermon, shown on a projection screen. That was kind of odd and something that I didn't expect, but there are a dozen Mars Hill churches in the area and he can't preach in all of them at the same time otherwise.

The sermon itself was... okay. It wasn't earth shattering and it was on Driscoll's favorite topic, but it was engaging and presented well. His wife also participated in a Q&A at the end and the back and forth between them was also interesting. The sermon had the expected "sex is only for marriage, fornication is bad, homosexuality is bad, porn is horrible" fare, but some of the points he made were interesting to think about and some parts were purposely downright hillarious. I also appreciated the fact that he acknowledged that there are legitimate reasons to have sex besides procreation and talked about them in some detail. The sermon is available here and... this is exactly the video they played: http://marshill.com/media/real-marriage/sex-god-gross-or-gift The fornication part in the beginning is actually pretty funny.

Mark Driscoll seems really hung up on the concept of idolatry, which made me wonder a little bit. He's also very adament on how serious sin is and that our sins are such a big deal that they killed God. The "Christ dies for your sins" part is expected, but the way he put it was really over the top and overly dramatic. Other than that, the sermon was standard fare.

After the sermon, there was prayer and the band played again. And again, they were AWESOME, to the point that one of their songs brought tears to my eyes. I'd go back just for the music, because they were that good. The pastor that led the band was moving to a different church, so they prayed over him, thanked him and things like that. The collection plate was passed, communion was offered and that was about it.

Overall, it was similar to some other "young" churches that I've been to, in regard to the style of service and reminded me a lot of the church that my parents attend. Nothing really struck me as odd or culty about the experience. As we were leaving, nobody approached us, love bombed us or bombarded us in any way. Perhaps it would have been different if I attended alone.

I have heard that the really serious stuff goes on in the core groups, but I have no experience with it, so I can't say. I went in expecting something insane to happen, but it was a run of the mill church service with good music. I did find out that there's a Mars Hill close to where I live now and I could be persuaded to try another service or a Bible study, just to see what happens.

I'm sure there's plenty that I left out, but... it was kind of uneventful.

[Maude]

In my early teens, I attended a Pentecostal church which also had the 'hip' music that appeals to the younger crowds. In my experience, this is one of the things that makes these churches so dangerous. They package/disguise their bullshit by pandering to pop culture, and once they've got you, they start heaping it on. It's just like Gothard and Vision Forum, et al, with their promise of a perfect family. I'm not saying all churches are like this, of course, but many are, and we know that Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill fit the bill. In any case, thanks for sharing your experience. It's always interesting to get a view from inside.

[Guest Anonymous]

Thanks for the review: I'd love to visit Mars Hill one day, it is on my curiosity list!

I tend to agree with Maude, love-bombing is not very 21st century but the 'seeker-friendly' sermons and fab music are what hook people in to the more dangerous places.

I read a really interesting blog post somewhere, where a guy attempted to show the precise point on the Church sound board, at which the 'Holy Spirit' will start to move among the church... I need to find that again....

[debrand]

Your description is pretty much how I pictured Mars Hill. The emphasis on sin was because Driscol is a Calvinist.

DId you find his style of preaching appealing? When I've listened to him online, I've always been struck how immature Mark's speaking style is. To me, he sounds like a man approaching middle age who is desperate to be hip and cool.

There are lots of people who go to a church because the members are friendly, the music is appealing and the pastor doesn't bore them. Agreeing with the pastor's views on theology comes later, when the person is already committed to the church.

[Austin]

I'm not surprised it was very appealing. That's exactly how they reel people in. People go and think, "Wow, that was nice. The music was so great. It was not fanatical or weird at all. These people actually make some good points", and so it goes.

Thanks for checking it out.

[contrary]

He broadcasts his sermon to all of the churches/services. I'm pretty sure they're all recorded at the flagship church and then broadcast either live, or later in the day.

I agree with previous posters...the draw is the hip crowd, the "hip" Driscoll and his "cool" approach, and fantastic music. It's easy to keep going back.

Then the second tier of involvement may pop a few red flags, but hell, you already sort of like it.

And on it goes, with small flags and compromises along the way. Then you look back and realize your life has been given over.

but, we all knew that.

[starfish]

That's very interesting.

When I first saw the post up, I thought to myself that MamaJune Bug had been undercover again.

[bicyclecat]

I did find the manner of preaching to be "appealing," although it lost some of it's impact, as it was pre recorded. I mean, I could have just stayed home and watched the sermons on line, for the same effect. But, he did have that "I'm your buddy" air about him, which did quite a bit to mask the fact that I did disagree with him theologically, in some ways. However, the sermon itself was pretty basic and there wasn't much that was out of line with every other church I've been to, so... I think I may have had a different reaction has the sermon been more controversial.

As far as his speaking style and the immaturity... If I didn't know that he was in his early 40's, I'd have thought he was younger than I am, by the way he presents himself. So, there is a factor of him trying to appeal to the younger crowd as, let's face it, church needs to be fun to pull most younger adults in and that's the market he's going for. But, the music was fantastic. I can't say enough about how great it really was, which lends credance to the fact that it's a hook to get people interested and keep them there, because the church down the street just has a choir, which isn't as cool.

The focus on sin I did expect, but he went further than I've really seen before. He actually said that a guy's porn habit killed God. It wasn't "We all sin and Christ died for us all," but was much more accusatory in nature and it rubbed me the wrong way. I wasn't thrilled with the finger pointing involved and it reeked of judgement. I can really see where some of the issues may get deeper, when the core groups are involved.

But, anyway, that's how Mars Hill works. I do apologize for any vagueness and am happy to clairify or go into more detail if anyone's interested. I have an open ended prescription for Percocet right now and it makes me a little fuzzy.

[QAF_Rocks]

The sermon had the expected "sex is only for marriage, fornication is bad, homosexuality is bad, porn is horrible" fare

I don't really get this. The church tries to be all hip and modern with cool music, but then they drop in this kind of social conservatism? Aren't the moderate "spiritual seekers" who attend going to be turned off by this stuff? How many modern young people are happy to hear homophobia and anti-sex propaganda from the pulpit?

[ShadowyOne]

I agree with previous posters...the draw is the hip crowd, the "hip" Driscoll and his "cool" approach, and fantastic music. It's easy to keep going back.

Then the second tier of involvement may pop a few red flags, but hell, you already sort of like it.

And on it goes, with small flags and compromises along the way. Then you look back and realize your life has been given over.

but, we all knew that.

This is how an acquaintance of mine got drawn into Scientology (my other cult-y obsession). It's all love-bomby and "we're all happy here" on the surface, and everyone is effusive about their "wins" but nobody shares their failures, and eventually the person is embroiled in it and it's much more difficult to get out.

[Terrie]

I don't really get this. The church tries to be all hip and modern with cool music, but then they drop in this kind of social conservatism? Aren't the moderate "spiritual seekers" who attend going to be turned off by this stuff? How many modern young people are happy to hear homophobia and anti-sex propaganda from the pulpit?

Agreed. In set up, the church I went to as a kid was fairly old-fashioned. "Just" a choir, no multimedia equipment, our pastor was a white-haired old guy. But socially, it was hard to get more liberal without being a communist UU church.

[Shirley MacLaine]

My boyfriend and I plan to make a trip to MHC at some point. He speaks live at the one in Ballard, right?

[contrary]

I don't really get this. The church tries to be all hip and modern with cool music, but then they drop in this kind of social conservatism? Aren't the moderate "spiritual seekers" who attend going to be turned off by this stuff? How many modern young people are happy to hear homophobia and anti-sex propaganda from the pulpit?

I'm just speculating here, but there's no question that Driscoll is hard-core Fundie. He's just wrapping up his message differently, trying to appeal to a different demographic.

Apparently there are enough people out there who already believe his shit, or who are willing to change their views over to his views.

Evangelicals are THE FASTEST GROWING christian demographic in the world.

not all evangelicals are mars hill level crazy, of course, but they're still pretty right of center, and their views on things like homosexuality are clear.

I suspect he's drawing from two general sources of hipsters: those who grew up fundy/fundy-light and already believe these things but fancy themselves way cooler than their parents....or those who don't have strong theological opinions or backgrounds, and just fall for it hook/line/sinker.

[Coconut Flan]

They've invaded California! Orange County though so that sort of explains it.

[ohpotteryourotter]

I have a facebook friend who actually works at a Mars Hill church. He frequently talks about it but no juicy stuff so far.

[QAF_Rocks]

I'm just speculating here, but there's no question that Driscoll is hard-core Fundie. He's just wrapping up his message differently, trying to appeal to a different demographic.

Apparently there are enough people out there who already believe his shit, or who are willing to change their views over to his views.

Evangelicals are THE FASTEST GROWING christian demographic in the world.

not all evangelicals are mars hill level crazy, of course, but they're still pretty right of center, and their views on things like homosexuality are clear.

I suspect he's drawing from two general sources of hipsters: those who grew up fundy/fundy-light and already believe these things but fancy themselves way cooler than their parents....or those who don't have strong theological opinions or backgrounds, and just fall for it hook/line/sinker.

That's what I was thinking. I bet a lot of people go in there already believing these things. I'd be surprised if there are a lot of moderate Christians who get caught up in churches like Mars Hill. You already have to be extremely conservative to sit through some kind of anti-sex, anti-gay, fire-and-brimstone tirade without getting up and walking out. I mean, seriously, who expects an anti-porn diatribe at church? Probably only people who are used to hearing that kind of thing from the pulpit.

[bicyclecat]

I've grown very tired of hearing all of this venting about homosesuality, by fundies. Yes, the Bible says it's a sin. The Bible also says that wearing mixed fibers is a sin as well. So, I'm not going to take any of what they say seriously until I hear some hellfire and brimstone about wearing a polyester blend. I really would like to hear that, because it's be awesomely funny.

In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy spending time with my friends who are homosexual (rather than homosexual friends, as there's so much more to them, than who they love and have sex with.) I'd rather love my neighbor and do unto others, as I'd have them do unto me, rather that forgo having great friends because of one aspect of their life.

I think that Driscoll preaches in Ballard, but I'm really not totally sure. The auditorium in the video I saw didn't look much like the Ballard church.

ETA that I take the parts about homosexuality in the Bible with a grain of salt. I know that the Bible has been edited many times and have heard that those parts were added for political reasons, rather than actually being the word of God.

[ShadowyOne]

I've grown very tired of hearing all of this venting about homosesuality, by fundies. Yes, the Bible says it's a sin. The Bible also says that wearing mixed fibers is a sin as well. So, I'm not going to take any of what they say seriously until I hear some hellfire and brimstone about wearing a polyester blend. I really would like to hear that, because it's be awesomely funny.

In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy spending time with my friends who are homosexual (rather than homosexual friends, as there's so much more to them, than who they love and have sex with.) I'd rather love my neighbor and do unto others, as I'd have them do unto me, rather that forgo having great friends because of one aspect of their life.

I think that Driscoll preaches in Ballard, but I'm really not totally sure. The auditorium in the video I saw didn't look much like the Ballard church.

ETA that I take the parts about homosexuality in the Bible with a grain of salt. I know that the Bible has been edited many times and have heard that those parts were added for political reasons, rather than actually being the word of God.

There are dozens and dozens of things that we can point to that the Bible tells or forbids us to do that aren't relevant or commonly enforced (even by fundies). Has anyone read "The Bible Tells Me So" (subtitled "Uses and Abuses of the Holy Scripture")? It's not super in-depth with arguments, having more of a "primer" style, with a few pages on each issue, with some pictures, quotes, and historical examples for each issue (such as many that are relevant to discussions on FJ such as "to define the traditional role of women," "to appose abortion," "to justify the physical punishment of children," "to regulate clothing and hairstyles," "to define the terms of marriage," etc.), but also many other issues that fundies would (I hope) object to: "to justify slavery," "to persecute Jews," etc. I just pulled my copy off of the shelf, and am glancing through. From the inro:

This little book is not about the message of the Bible. Rather, it's a brief survey showing how the Bible has been selectively used as a toll. And how, with Bible in hand, religious and political leaders have felt justified in promoting policies that will affect the lives of others. ... Our purpose is simply to call attention to intolerance, injustice, and blind, unquestioning allegiance to people and institutions that seek to hurt and oppress others, with the simple justification "It's in the Bible."

Can anyone recommend any newer (I figure I've had this book for at least 15 years), or more in-depth books that explore how the Bible was used to justify different points of view? Any suggestions would be welcome.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Mark Driscoll seems really hung up on the concept of idolatry, which made me wonder a little bit. He's also very adament on how serious sin is and that our sins are such a big deal that they killed God. The "Christ dies for your sins" part is expected, but the way he put it was really over the top and overly dramatic. Other than that, the sermon was standard fare.

Really? We killed god? I haven't been to church in years but this would be quite a departure from what I remember of the theology. It was pretty much "We screwed up, and god decided to save us." Saying that we somehow forced God/Jesus to die really takes the grace element out of it.