From Another Site: What If Your Child Is Gay?

[Witsec1]

CC3, you haven't offered any convincing rationale for why "homosexuality is a choice" should be the null hypothesis.

It doesn't seem that heterosexuality is a choice for most people - it certainly isn't for me. I didn't choose to be heterosexual. Why should homosexuality be different?

And why is it important to prove either way? How would it make a difference in how society treats gay people?

[emmiedahl]

cc3, you've already shown me that scientific proof is not conclusive enough for your agenda. Now show me what you consider conclusive proof. What supports your side?

[CC3]

And why is it important to prove either way? How would it make a difference in how society treats gay people?

For me, it boils down to curiosity stemming from a friend who is gay as well as her brother. I have always wondered if it was a nurture issue. Both siblings have very strained relationships with their parents even before coming out. There is so much overwhelming sadness in their family, it would be wonderful if the parents would stop "blaming" their children for what the parents see as unacceptable (and to the parents embarrassing) behavior.

I also think it would be easier for homosexuals to be accepted in society as whole and in the church in particular if it is proven to be a genetic issue. I'm sure many people on FJ have good relationships with their parents, family and friends, but for my friends it hasn't worked out that way.

[emmiedahl]

So what would you consider conclusive proof?

[clibbyjo]

So what would you consider conclusive proof?

Now Emmiedahl, you are just a mere DR.(close enough). Surely CC3 has at least a college plus background and you have to realize she hit the science much harder than you with such prestigious credentials. She knows what she is talking about, her friend has a bad relationship with her parents so of course the friend is gay! Everyone knows that is how it works! I better go call my lesbian friend who has a great relationship with her parents and tell her she must not really be gay then. :doh:

[BlackHawk]

Now Emmiedahl, you are just a mere DR.(close enough). Surely CC3 has at least a college plus background and you have to realize she hit the science much harder than you with such prestigious credentials. She knows what she is talking about, her friend has a bad relationship with her parents so of course the friend is gay! Everyone knows that is how it works! I better go call my lesbian friend who has a great relationship with her parents and tell her she must not really be gay then. :doh:

What about us who had a decent relationship with at least one of our parents until we turned out gay? What's our excuse?

[valsa]

What about us who had a decent relationship with at least one of our parents until we turned out gay? What's our excuse?

What about my half brother and I? We both had bad relationships with our fathers and a good relationship with our mother. If having a bad relationship with my father turned me off men, why did it turn my brother towards men?

[emmiedahl]

Now Emmiedahl, you are just a mere DR.(close enough). Surely CC3 has at least a college plus background and you have to realize she hit the science much harder than you with such prestigious credentials. She knows what she is talking about, her friend has a bad relationship with her parents so of course the friend is gay! Everyone knows that is how it works! I better go call my lesbian friend who has a great relationship with her parents and tell her she must not really be gay then. :doh:

I am NOT a doctor :D yet. But I am a science nerd, and I consider the body of scientific proof regarding homosexuality to be fairly conclusive as a whole. This is not just based on my personal love for several LGBT friends and relatives, but based upon reviewing the studies and comparing them to the methodology and conclusions seen in less controversial work. I don't know what would be seen as "proof" colloquially, but from a scientific perspective, there is a biological basis. That's why I am curious.

I have a relative who is a lesbian who came from a great family--my family!!! We are pretty awesome if I do say so myself!

[Witsec1]

For me, it boils down to curiosity stemming from a friend who is gay as well as her brother. I have always wondered if it was a nurture issue. Both siblings have very strained relationships with their parents even before coming out. There is so much overwhelming sadness in their family, it would be wonderful if the parents would stop "blaming" their children for what the parents see as unacceptable (and to the parents embarrassing) behavior.

But why would it matter? There's pretty substantial evidence for a genetic component to alcoholism/addictive behavior. If my daughter were to become an alcoholic, my response would be outwardly similar to the way fundie/fundie-lites respond when a kid is gay - "love the sinner, hate the sin", try to get treatment for her problem, etc. But I wouldn't react the same way if she were gay, because it's not a problem or a character flaw or a moral failing. It just is, like being right-handed or left-handed.

So, I don't get why some people are resistant to the idea that homosexuality might have a genetic component.

And you haven't explained why "homosexuality is a choice" should be the null hypothesis.

[emmiedahl]

CC3, do you know any LGBT people from solid family backgrounds? I do. My husband has a few gay people in his family, from loving two-parent households with no abuse, no neglect, nothing. His family has nothing but loving parents with no abuse. All perfect Donna Reed couples, solid people with degrees and societal advantages. I imagine many gay people came from those backgrounds. Abuse and weak families are a sad fact of American culture, I suspect you know many straight people who were victims.

eta: I have had a few drinks. My point is that abuse does not create homosexuality, nor does a functional family background prevent it.

[dawbs]

No, I did not get that exact study, although it kind of relates to the one about the rats. Mammalian fetal development is pretty much uniform in the first few months, but it is definitely more conclusive to show a study of actual humans. So, thanks.

I'm going to trusst that there's more recent literature on this, bu I did a lot of work w/ this in college...with the effect of estrogen mimiccs on brain development and the subsequent "masculization " and 'feminization' of lab animals (yes, I had to give a tlak, in fundieville, on the lab-creation of lesbian hamsters...)

if people do indeedy want me to dig them up, I may have them somewhere on a floppy disk _:P

But, honestly, if 10 years ago, in a somewhat 'conservative' environment, this wasn't especially cutting edge and was being read about by biology undergrads, I can't imagine that it's nt 'common knowledge' by now

[debrand]

For me, it boils down to curiosity stemming from a friend who is gay as well as her brother. I have always wondered if it was a nurture issue. Both siblings have very strained relationships with their parents even before coming out. There is so much overwhelming sadness in their family, it would be wonderful if the parents would stop "blaming" their children for what the parents see as unacceptable (and to the parents embarrassing) behavior.

I also think it would be easier for homosexuals to be accepted in society as whole and in the church in particular if it is proven to be a genetic issue. I'm sure many people on FJ have good relationships with their parents, family and friends, but for my friends it hasn't worked out that way.

There are many heterosexual people who have strained relationships with their parents. No one suggest that their sexuality is caused by their problems in childhoods.

You have friends who, despite having parents who blame their children for being homosexual, are still gay. Obviously, their attraction to the same sex is something that they can't help or why alienate themselves from their family?

[BlackHawk]

>.> Okay, I have to add this.

Every time I read this thread it gets crazier and crazier.. and yet all my Broadway brain can think of is an Avenue Q song...

IF YOU WERE GAY

THAT'D BE OKAY.

I MEAN 'CAUSE, HEY,

I'D LIKE YOU ANYWAY.

BECAUSE YOU SEE,

IF IT WERE ME,

I WOULD FEEL FREE

TO SAY THAT I WAS GAY

IF YOU WERE QUEER

I'D STILL BE HERE

YEAR AFTER YEAR

BECAUSE YOU'RE DEAR TO ME

YOU CAN COUNT ON ME

TO ALWAYS BE

BESIDE YOU EVERY DAY,

TO TELL YOU IT'S OKAY,

YOU WERE JUST BORN

THAT WAY,

AND, AS THEY SAY,

IT'S IN YOUR DNA,

YOU'RE GAY!

I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

[mockingbird]

>.> Okay, I have to add this.

Every time I read this thread it gets crazier and crazier.. and yet all my Broadway brain can think of is an Avenue Q song...

IF YOU WERE GAY

THAT'D BE OKAY.

I MEAN 'CAUSE, HEY,

I'D LIKE YOU ANYWAY.

BECAUSE YOU SEE,

IF IT WERE ME,

I WOULD FEEL FREE

TO SAY THAT I WAS GAY

IF YOU WERE QUEER

I'D STILL BE HERE

YEAR AFTER YEAR

BECAUSE YOU'RE DEAR TO ME

YOU CAN COUNT ON ME

TO ALWAYS BE

BESIDE YOU EVERY DAY,

TO TELL YOU IT'S OKAY,

YOU WERE JUST BORN

THAT WAY,

AND, AS THEY SAY,

IT'S IN YOUR DNA,

YOU'RE GAY!

I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[debrand]

BlackHawk, my oldest son introduced me to that song.

[clibbyjo]

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[CC3]

CC3, do you know any LGBT people from solid family backgrounds? I do. My husband has a few gay people in his family, from loving two-parent households with no abuse, no neglect, nothing. His family has nothing but loving parents with no abuse. All perfect Donna Reed couples, solid people with degrees and societal advantages. I imagine many gay people came from those backgrounds. Abuse and weak families are a sad fact of American culture, I suspect you know many straight people who were victims.

eta: I have had a few drinks. My point is that abuse does not create homosexuality, nor does a functional family background prevent it.

I am friends with several gay people. Unfortunately, they do not come from Leave It to Beaver Backgrounds. One friend is my age from a loving family other than her father who rejected her when he found out. One former friend in particular is from a two parent family with six children, but he is also a pedophile and a registered sex offender. I don't think it has anything to do with him being gay (he has preyed on little boys). Others are the brother/sister pair whom I love and I am sure their parents love them but can't accept them. And a friend who died from AIDS who came from a loving family.

I hold an MBA and have an undying love for education. The best part of finishing my education was proving to myself and my family that a woman can accomplish anything she desires. (My brother was sent to college but I was not because I was just a girl). Congrats on your (almost) doctorate. It must be a great accomplishment for you.

I do know lots of people with weak family structures because of the volunteer work I do with addicts and the mentally ill through my church.

I'm not answering anymore questions on this topic. Thanks for everyone's input. Linda

[Guest Anonymous]

I am friends with several gay people. Unfortunately, they do not come from Leave It to Beaver Backgrounds. One friend is my age from a loving family other than her father who rejected her when he found out. One former friend in particular is from a two parent family with six children, but he is also a pedophile and a registered sex offender. I don't think it has anything to do with him being gay (he has preyed on little boys). Others are the brother/sister pair whom I love and I am sure their parents love them but can't accept them. And a friend who died from AIDS who came from a loving family.

I hold an MBA and have an undying love for education. The best part of finishing my education was proving to myself and my family that a woman can accomplish anything she desires. (My brother was sent to college but I was not because I was just a girl). Congrats on your (almost) doctorate. It must be a great accomplishment for you.

I do know lots of people with weak family structures because of the volunteer work I do with addicts and the mentally ill through my church.

I'm not answering anymore questions on this topic. Thanks for everyone's input. Linda

Fuck you very much.

[valsa]

I'm not answering anymore questions on this topic.

Convenient. Run out with your tail between your legs before you have to define what your criteria for "conclusive" evidence is. I think it's very clear that nothing would be adequately conclusive for you on this matter.

[Guest Anonymous]

Convenient. Run out with your tail between your legs before you have to define what your criteria for "conclusive" evidence is. I think it's very clear that nothing would be adequately conclusive for you on this matter.

Geez valsa, she just wants all of us dirty LGBTQ people to admit that the only reason we choose teh gayness is to make her feel icky. But we're so unreasonable, with our science, and our personal experiences, and our love, and shit.

[emmiedahl]

Geez valsa, she just wants all of us dirty LGBTQ people to admit that the only reason we choose teh gayness is to make her feel icky. But we're so unreasonable, with our science, and our personal experiences, and our love, and shit.

I just want to say that I DO love you all, with your science and love and shit. I don't care if there is a biological basis; that is only truly relevant to people who view LGBT as deviance. To the rest of us, it is an interesting bit of science but completely immaterial.

My issue with the "born this way" argument is that some may interpret it to mean that being outside of the heteronormative norm is illness, somehow less wholesome and healthy, and that compassion should only be extended if you can prove it is not your fault.

I don't care how people feel sexually about whichever genders, it is such a small issue in the broad landscape of life and it is a shame that so much is made of it. People are people, they deserve love and acceptance.

[Guest Anonymous]

I just want to say that I DO love you all, with your science and love and shit. I don't care if there is a biological basis; that is only truly relevant to people who view LGBT as deviance. To the rest of us, it is an interesting bit of science but completely immaterial.

My issue with the "born this way" argument is that some may interpret it to mean that being outside of the heteronormative norm is illness, somehow less wholesome and healthy, and that compassion should only be extended if you can prove it is not your fault.

I don't care how people feel sexually about whichever genders, it is such a small issue in the broad landscape of life and it is a shame that so much is made of it. People are people, they deserve love and acceptance.

emmie, I can only speak for myself, but I love you right back. For serious.

[1004srs]

Really - I am pretty conservative.

But, I don't care one way or another if someone is gay, straight, asexual, or whatever. It isn't my business.

If one of my kids is LGBT, who cares.... They are my child. I love them unconditionally.

[ElphabaGalinda]

>.> Okay, I have to add this.

Every time I read this thread it gets crazier and crazier.. and yet all my Broadway brain can think of is an Avenue Q song...

IF YOU WERE GAY

THAT'D BE OKAY.

I MEAN 'CAUSE, HEY,

I'D LIKE YOU ANYWAY.

BECAUSE YOU SEE,

IF IT WERE ME,

I WOULD FEEL FREE

TO SAY THAT I WAS GAY

IF YOU WERE QUEER

I'D STILL BE HERE

YEAR AFTER YEAR

BECAUSE YOU'RE DEAR TO ME

YOU CAN COUNT ON ME

TO ALWAYS BE

BESIDE YOU EVERY DAY,

TO TELL YOU IT'S OKAY,

YOU WERE JUST BORN

THAT WAY,

AND, AS THEY SAY,

IT'S IN YOUR DNA,

YOU'RE GAY!

I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

You forgot the part:

I'M HAPPY, JUST BEING WITH YOU!

SO WHAT SHOULD IT MATTER TO ME,

WHAT YOU DO IN BED WITH GUYS?

(Nikki that is so gross) (No it's not!)

Haha that's my favourite part because i got that exact reaction coming out to a friend (but replace guys with girls) :lol: I didn't even know she knew avenue q, it was hilarious.

[darkplumaged]

IF YOU WERE QUEER

I'D STILL BE HERE

YEAR AFTER YEAR

BECAUSE YOU'RE DEAR TO ME

I don't know what it says about my husband (or me?) that he likes to sing this part... :D

To answer the question: My (hypothetical) child is my child, to be loved no matter who he or she is. At the same time, I'd be sad and afraid that he or she will be judged, even hated, for just being him- or herself. And childhood bullying is only part of it--only the start of it.

I am encouraged, though, that people my age and younger tend to be much more accepting and, I hope, will transmit those attitudes to their own kids.