Canadian Med Assoc Journal calls for spanking to be illegal

[Lainey]

I don't know how this post turned into one about circumcision. But anyway, on the original topic, my fundie-lite friend's father posted about this and opined on it. He said this:

"My thoughts on the following article:

There are times in my experience when spanking is necessary.

The first time ever I spanked a child was when one of our children tried to run onto a country road at the age of two. At that age it was the only way I could make sure that she understood on a visceral level that road = bad. No, she hasn't shown any sign of aggression in later years.

As a rule, we reserved spanking for a last resort after trying alternative methods. The trouble with using alternative punishments alone is that they usually require compliance on the part of the child. If the child is already in non compliant mode and won't stand in the corner, then spanking is the answer. I always followed up with reassurance that we loved him/her and a hug.

Lastly, spanking, however seldom used, directly communicates the parent's authority over the child. A child who gets the idea that his parents will never respond to bad behavior with anything but talk will tend not to respect their authority. Those who don't believe in the concept of parental authority will have a problem with that idea; those who do will appreciate it.

As for peer reviewed studies - give us a break. A binary spank/don't spank study is flawed in concept because the "spank" side includes the whole continuum of corporal punishment right up to abuse, which of course will lead to aggression issues later on. Peer review won't fix that flaw, it only helps ensure that the study as conceived is carried through with the proper methodology. Clip off the extreme, find a way to quantify "reasonable" use of corporal punishment and then you might come up with a useful comparison."

Curious as to how you guys would respond. His sister commented on his post and said that two was too young for a child to even understand why she was being spanked. However, she doesn't have kids. Not sure that matters, but just throwing it out there.

[snarkbillie]

Curious as to how you guys would respond. His sister commented on his post and said that two was too young for a child to even understand why she was being spanked. However, she doesn't have kids. Not sure that matters, but just throwing it out there.

2 years old is probably old enough to realize not to run into the street, however if they do run into the street you should probably just snatch them back because hitting them isn't teaching them anything. You are responsible for keeping small children out of danger. If they're not old enough to reason with, they're too young to understand spankings. If they're old enough to understand spankings they're old enough to reason with and thus do not need to be hit. I'm very anti-spanking though, so yeah.

[Sinister Rouge]

2 years old is probably old enough to realize not to run into the street, however if they do run into the street you should probably just snatch them back because hitting them isn't teaching them anything. You are responsible for keeping small children out of danger. If they're not old enough to reason with, they're too young to understand spankings. If they're old enough to understand spankings they're old enough to reason with and thus do not need to be hit. I'm very anti-spanking though, so yeah.

ITA. Especially with the bolded part. I'm raising a 2 and 4 year old on my own, we're out in the world every day and they're average kids - they test limits and push buttons. However, speaking from personal experience, I've never resorted to spanking or time outs because, from day one, I've been teaching them - in a respectful manner - right from wrong, safe from unsafe. Now my four year old teaches his little sister things in the same manner, I often hear things like, "Rachael, we can't run ahead right now because we're near a road. We can run and play when we get to the park, though!" or, "remember not to touch the hot pans when mummy's cooking, it will hurt and make you cry!" He's preemptive and explains things thoroughly, because that's how he's been taught.

My thought going in to it (parenting/discipline) was, who (except for fundies) wants their kid(s) to go through life being blindly and immediately obedient? IMO, part of becoming a functional adult is learning natural consequences, how to think ahead, and how to ask questions and reason with all people.

[Koala]

The first time ever I spanked a child was when one of our children tried to run onto a country road at the age of two. At that age it was the only way I could make sure that she understood on a visceral level that road = bad. No, she hasn't shown any sign of aggression in later years.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard the tale of the child running into the road I would be a rich woman. It seems every spanker has one. :roll:

Oddly enough, my kids (who have never once been spanked) have never ran into the road, and being that they are WAY past toddlerhood, I'd say we're in no danger of it happening. It might have had something to do with the fact that they were never turned loose near the road, but who knows...

Let's be real. At 2 there is no way a child is going to understand the "dangers of the road". What she knew was that she was in danger of being hit. A less violent solution might have been to simply keep her away from the road until she was old enough to understand the consequences.

My kids had an immediate response to the word "danger". I only used it when they were about to do something unsafe, and the tone of my voice was always enough to stop them in their tracts until I could get them redirected.

While it may be true that his daughter has shown no signs of aggression, she may very well be internalizing her experience. I am not able to talk about certain details of my childhood, but I did internalize many things that effect me to this day.

As a rule, we reserved spanking for a last resort after trying alternative methods. The trouble with using alternative punishments alone is that they usually require compliance on the part of the child. If the child is already in non compliant mode and won't stand in the corner, then spanking is the answer. I always followed up with reassurance that we loved him/her and a hug.

Hitting is never the answer, and a hug doesn't cancel out a hit. End of story. Standing in the corner is an equally ridiculous consequence if you ask me. What does that teach?

I always encouraged my kids to draw (when they were little) or write (now) about issues that we come across. It helps give them a constructive way to give a voice to what's going on with them. I also encourage them to put themselves in someone else's shoes and honestly they are some of the most compassionate kids I know. They are great about speaking up when something seems wrong or unfair to them.

Lastly, spanking, however seldom used, directly communicates the parent's authority over the child. A child who gets the idea that his parents will never respond to bad behavior with anything but talk will tend not to respect their authority. Those who don't believe in the concept of parental authority will have a problem with that idea; those who do will appreciate it.

I guess "Supreme Authority" just isn't the title I'm going for. My kids get that at the end of the day I am in charge. They also get that I respect them as individuals. I'm not in a power struggle, nor do I want to be. They respect their fellow human beings and that's good enough for me. I'm not trying to raise people who instantly obey "authority", I'm trying to raise kind, happy, critically thinking, confident individuals.

As for peer reviewed studies - give us a break. A binary spank/don't spank study is flawed in concept because the "spank" side includes the whole continuum of corporal punishment right up to abuse, which of course will lead to aggression issues later on. Peer review won't fix that flaw, it only helps ensure that the study as conceived is carried through with the proper methodology. Clip off the extreme, find a way to quantify "reasonable" use of corporal punishment and then you might come up with a useful comparison."

There is no reasonable way or number of times to hit someone.

Curious as to how you guys would respond. His sister commented on his post and said that two was too young for a child to even understand why she was being spanked. However, she doesn't have kids.

His sister is right. Bottom line? He needs to keep his kid safe, not hit her so he doesn't have to worry about it.

I admire her for speaking up. It can be hard to go against family. Good for her!

[emmiedahl]

It depends on the two year old. I have had two year olds who were basically miniature adults and ones who were barely talking.

I have had children try to make a break for it, but I keep them close when we are near roads (duh!) and I grab their hand before they moved more than an inch. And then I proceed to tell them that any one of those cars would kill them, and they would be hurt, and I would be sad forever without them. They learn an important fact about roads without ever being smacked.

[thoughtful]

I never understand the rationalizations for spanking.

I'm a big believer in prevention/management, and lots of reward for the behaviors we do want to see. But, management fails, people make mistakes, kids test limits. So sometimes, punishment is needed.

In 40 years of teaching, I've certainly used it.

And I've never hit anyone.

Attempts at punishment that use pain have all kinds of possible pitfalls that can make life worse for the parent as well as the child.

Punishment via loss of reward/privilege/attention is effective, and much more like real life among civilized people. If you work for a boss who would smack you around for not completing a task, instead of a normal "your choice, your loss" consequence, I would suggest getting another job!

If a hit is hard enough to cause pain or damage, it is too violent.

That brings us to the "it's only in emergency" statements, which make no sense to me. There are better things to do, even in an extreme emergency -- smacking a hand or bottom is wasting time, and does not take the child out of danger.

Child (too young to understand or respond to verbal request) reaching for hot or dangerous object -- grab hand.

Child (too young to understand or respond to verbal request) running towards street - grab whole child.

The "I never hit hard, it's just to get the child's attention" statement also leaves me baffled -- when I want a child's attention, I say the child's name.

If, what someone means by "getting child's attention" is "getting child to know I mean business," that's a whole other thing. That's when you apply nonviolent punishment.

I can never wrap my head around when or where hitting would ever be appropriate.

[Koala]

I would like to see them call it hitting. That is after all what they are doing.

[emmiedahl]

When I taught preschool, you could pick out the spanked vs. nonspanked children on the first damn meeting. They were the ones with behavior issues. I always knew even before we gave out the questionnaire that includes "How is discipline handled in your home?"

[ladypuglover]

Koala, I had 3 out 5 that were road runners and I don't mean the little bird. I was a road runner as a toddler too, so that may be part of their make up as I was a toddler nudest and had 5 toddler nudests. :shock:

[Lainey]

A little more information:

The two-year-old in his story was my friend when she was little. They are fundie-lite, and believe that children have a "sin nature" (I hate that concept). I think that's where the "authority" thing comes in. Quite a few years ago, this same friend told me that when she was about 5, her uncle was living with the family, and her dad told her she was "acting too sexy/suggestive" and that she shouldn't do that. She sort of argued with me that children aren't capable of trying to seduce anyone (she thought they could, again because of that "sin nature" thing :shock: ). So that's the kind of mindset this is coming from.

Anyway, this morning she told me she sent him a message saying that she does, in fact, have a lot of the issues the article mentions. I don't know if he responded or not.

I'm a little stuck on this "country road" thing. Around here, country roads are...VERY country. As in, she probably wasn't in immediate danger. So I'm left to wonder why she wasn't already taught not to run out into the street.

[StarrieEyedKat]

Why do pro-spanking people immediately go to the "I spank my kid when they run into the road" defense? To me, that's not a reason to spank a kid, that's a lesson for the parent to be more mindful of their child. In my previously pro-spanking mind, spanking made more sense when a child is being willfully defiant and knows better. Thanks to FJ, I no longer see things that way, but I NEVER thought spanking a 2 year old for running into the street was justified. :snooty:

My favorite (not) is when I see a parent yell at a child for hitting, then swat their butt. Uh...way to be completely contradictory there, dumbass. :roll:

[Koala]

A little more information:

The two-year-old in his story was my friend when she was little. They are fundie-lite, and believe that children have a "sin nature" (I hate that concept). I think that's where the "authority" thing comes in. Quite a few years ago, this same friend told me that when she was about 5, her uncle was living with the family, and her dad told her she was "acting too sexy/suggestive" and that she shouldn't do that. She sort of argued with me that children aren't capable of trying to seduce anyone (she thought they could, again because of that "sin nature" thing :shock: ). So that's the kind of mindset this is coming from.

Anyway, this morning she told me she sent him a message saying that she does, in fact, have a lot of the issues the article mentions. I don't know if he responded or not.

I'm a little stuck on this "country road" thing. Around here, country roads are...VERY country. As in, she probably wasn't in immediate danger. So I'm left to wonder why she wasn't already taught not to run out into the street.

Omg, how horrible :( Her father sounds like a first rate bastard. Wonder if it ever occurred to him to tell the uncle to get the fuck out.

[Deleted03]

Why do pro-spanking people immediately go to the "I spank my kid when they run into the road" defense? To me, that's not a reason to spank a kid, that's a lesson for the parent to be more mindful of their child. In my previously pro-spanking mind, spanking made more sense when a child is being willfully defiant and knows better. Thanks to FJ, I no longer see things that way, but I NEVER thought spanking a 2 year old for running into the street was justified. :snooty:

My favorite (not) is when I see a parent yell at a child for hitting, then swat their butt. Uh...way to be completely contradictory there, dumbass. :roll:

you know, I find that most people who have been swated or spanked when young and have as adults good relationships with their parents are usually the worst at accepting that spanking is bad. I think it's just that sometimes those people cannot fathom their parents having had shortcomings when they raised them and as long as those model figure don't acknowledge that they did wrong or that now they would not spank ever again, well they get stuck on spanking is a good thing. I know I come from a position where I ended up questionning every thing (or tried to, I'm sure I missed stuff) my mom did to raise me, but it's like some of those friends their parents could do no wrong. and if you accept that this one thing was wrong then all the rest crumble.

I just had this discussion last week with friends I was staying at, and although I agree that you should not put a parent in prison because they lost it and swatted once, I am still very confused at hearing my friend - who was never spanked - defending the 5 spanking her bf had as a kid, as that way he understood it was so much more important.

[Lainey]

Yeah, Koala, her father is...not my favourite person. At all. If he were to stumble across FJ, he'd probably be like Jericho. Hell, maybe he IS Jericho.

I don't know if her uncle (now aunt--transgender) had anything to do with it. She never said her uncle did anything.

[thoughtful]

you know, I find that most people who have been swated or spanked when young and have as adults good relationships with their parents are usually the worst at accepting that spanking is bad. I think it's just that sometimes those people cannot fathom their parents having had shortcomings when they raised them and as long as those model figure don't acknowledge that they did wrong or that now they would not spank ever again, well they get stuck on spanking is a good thing.

I think you're right -- this is a big part of it.

I also think it's similar to the "I grew up with secondhand smoke/junk food and my health is just fine" line. They don't seem to realize that they just got lucky.

But the physical punishment issue is worse, because nobody blows smoke or pushes junk food toward their child, because they feel they must, to raise a good person.

I think some people who have been spanked get locked into assuming correlation (or, really coincidence) is causation. They may think they turned out well due to the spanking.

It's almost like magical thinking -- "hitting will somehow protect me from raising a bad person."

But they would do less harm saying "Abracadabra, be a good child."

[emmiedahl]

Sophie, I think you are right. My husband has no problem with spanking (except that his wife won't allow it!). His parents spanked him a few times but were amazing, involved parents who gave their children the perfect home, spent tons of time with them, showered them with love and affection and opportunities. I know the in-laws do not believe in hand-slapping or physically disciplining very young children, because they have expressed disapproval of people spanking toddlers who are "too little to know what they are doing."

I had one parent who spanked and physically disciplined all.the.time. It was my mother's go-to punishment. My father never even raised his voice to us. My parents were generally loving, but my mother crossed the line between discipline and abuse a few times. So I tend to see spanking as a "gateway" activity that can lead to abuse, just from my personal experience.

[Lainey]

I had moments of being a terrorizing wild child, and my mother inexplicably let my brother and I wreak havoc on the mall she usually took us to. I never got in trouble (from her--we did get in trouble from the "mean lady" and the "mean man" whose stores we terrorized. :mrgreen: That's what we called them).

I think my mom only spanked when she was mad. I remember it not hurting at all, and thinking it was funny because I knew it meant she didn't know what else to do. It was more likely to make me behave even more like a terror.

Not that my mom wasn't sometimes abusive, but then: 1) it wasn't a spank on the butt that I got, and 2) it wasn't when I was actually being bad--it was when she was pissed about something or in a mood.

[Sinister Rouge]

you know, I find that most people who have been swated or spanked when young and have as adults good relationships with their parents are usually the worst at accepting that spanking is bad. I think it's just that sometimes those people cannot fathom their parents having had shortcomings when they raised them and as long as those model figure don't acknowledge that they did wrong or that now they would not spank ever again, well they get stuck on spanking is a good thing.

I can see this too. I guess I'm an exception, because I was spanked (only by my mom, my dad refused to because he was beaten as a child by his own father), made to stand in the corner, sent to my room and given time-outs - all the more "traditional" discipline techniques. My dad also insisted that we cry-it-out as infants, and my mother especially hated that, but it was the 70's-80's and it was encouraged by our doctor.

However, I have chosen to raise my children completely differently: I never ever did CIO (it, like spanking, just seems so counterintuitive to me), I practice gentle discipline and try to parent as consciously as I can. I never really considered that doing so may reflect poorly on my own parents, though I can see how it may. I've never judged them for how they raised me - they did it how they did it, it is what it is, you know. My mom has expressed to me that she regrets some of it, but I honestly don't blame her for the way she did things. When you know better, you do better, and she didn't know any better. I still consider them awesome parents, and we're still very close. But yeah, I have really noticed this mindset in my friends who are also parents. However, they also seem to experience significantly more frustration and behavioural troubles - or maybe I just got lucky and have awesome kids who are naturally non-combative? That'd be awesome :D

[jaynie]

you know, I find that most people who have been swated or spanked when young and have as adults good relationships with their parents are usually the worst at accepting that spanking is bad. I think it's just that sometimes those people cannot fathom their parents having had shortcomings when they raised them and as long as those model figure don't acknowledge that they did wrong or that now they would not spank ever again, well they get stuck on spanking is a good thing. I know I come from a position where I ended up questionning every thing (or tried to, I'm sure I missed stuff) my mom did to raise me, but it's like some of those friends their parents could do no wrong. and if you accept that this one thing was wrong then all the rest crumble.

I just had this discussion last week with friends I was staying at, and although I agree that you should not put a parent in prison because they lost it and swatted once, I am still very confused at hearing my friend - who was never spanked - defending the 5 spanking her bf had as a kid, as that way he understood it was so much more important.

I'd mostly agree with this assessment as well. My mother only very occasionally lost her temper with me and spanked me (usually when I was being contrary, which had the end result of making me *more* contrary and awfully good at pushing her buttons when she was in a bad mood, that's how well it worked). Otherwise she was a loving, supportive mother. It therefore always makes me defensive to hear "spanking is abusive" EVEN THOUGH I AGREE because there is the part of my brain struggling to reconcile that with my happy image of my mother. It wasn't that I thought my parents could do no wrong, but that this is a particularly harsh wrong -- not on the lines of giving me too much candy or letting me watch rude shows. It took an awful long time and an awful lot of introspection for me to go from "My mother spanked me and I turned out fine" to "my mother spanked me and I turned out fine in spite of it." I think this is why you get a lot of people who would genuinely never spank their kids who still insist that "they turned out fine."

One of my psych profs (in Denmark, where as far as I know corporal punishment is illegal) suggested that in more extreme cases, kids who were spanked might dissociate the memory of the pain, fear, and loss of control from the actual memory of the spanking. Thus they'd be likely to say "spanking never hurt me!" because they aren't aware that it did. Of course, in a lot of cases there are underlying issues that probably *were* caused by the spanking, but few people are introspective enough to work it out.

But yeah, I have really noticed this mindset in my friends who are also parents. However, they also seem to experience significantly more frustration and behavioural troubles - or maybe I just got lucky and have awesome kids who are naturally non-combative? That'd be awesome.

That's been generally found in kids who are spanked, if that's what you mean. That's why I bring up the example of my mother's spanking making me *more* likely to argue with her when she was in a bad mood. I think -- and there is at least a little evidence to support this -- that exaggerating the bad behavior is sort of a way to gain control over an uncontrollable situation. Sort of like "yeah, you're going to spank me, but I'm damned well going to *make* you do it." Not that kids are thinking that consciously, but I do think that's a factor. That, and that spanking can't teach you the "right" way to behave, only the "wrong" way, so a parent that uses punishment probably isn't spending enough time teaching good behavior, and will likely end up with more riotous kids...

Or your kids are just exceptionally awesome. Whichever. :D

[Blonde not dumb]

Why do pro-spanking people immediately go to the "I spank my kid when they run into the road" defense? To me, that's not a reason to spank a kid, that's a lesson for the parent to be more mindful of their child. In my previously pro-spanking mind, spanking made more sense when a child is being willfully defiant and knows better. Thanks to FJ, I no longer see things that way, but I NEVER thought spanking a 2 year old for running into the street was justified. :snooty:

My favorite (not) is when I see a parent yell at a child for hitting, then swat their butt. Uh...way to be completely contradictory there, dumbass. :roll:

This. Those people also love the "reaching for the hot stove" argument too. Umm, what was your child doing that close to the stove? Newsflash, if your child is too young to understand that hot things are hot and the road is dangerous, then it's your job to protect them! Teach your children and keep them from harm. What a concept!

[Nesomja]

Quote:

But yeah, I have really noticed this mindset in my friends who are also parents. However, they also seem to experience significantly more frustration and behavioural troubles - or maybe I just got lucky and have awesome kids who are naturally non-combative? That'd be awesome.

I have never spanked or even considered it. We use gentle discipline, explanations, 'time-in', all the techniques we can find. Our son is combattive, provocative, hits other children, and tries to control us in every way he can. I sometimes think that if had been born in another family he would be hit regularly. I know this would not help and his behaviour would get worse, but I still think it would happen. I think some children are more likely to get spanked than others because some children just are more challenging, so I don't think it is just spanking causing the behavioural problems. Sounds like you did get lucky, I am jealous!

[bananacat]

Honestly, I am sick to death of this hypothetical case of hitting your child if they run into a road. Look, if the child can't understand "running into the road will hurt me (by car)", they aren't likely to understand "running into the road will hurt me (by mom)". Millions of children manage to survive every single day without running into roads without ever being spanked. Teachers and daycare providers don't spank, and yet somehow they manage to make sure kids don't get hit by cars. It's a tired excuse and I'm not buying it. Maybe if someone can show me that non-spanked kids run out into roads and/or get hit by cars more often than their spanked counterparts, I will care enough to listen. Until then, try one of the myriad other solutions to keep your kid safe.

[Effie]

Oh I thought it was illegal in Canada already...

It won't happen in America, at least for another generation. Spanking is too ingrained in the culture.

That's so tragic. :( We abandoned it here a generation ago... before I was born.

[Sinister Rouge]

Quote:

But yeah, I have really noticed this mindset in my friends who are also parents. However, they also seem to experience significantly more frustration and behavioural troubles - or maybe I just got lucky and have awesome kids who are naturally non-combative? That'd be awesome.

I have never spanked or even considered it. We use gentle discipline, explanations, 'time-in', all the techniques we can find. Our son is combattive, provocative, hits other children, and tries to control us in every way he can. I sometimes think that if had been born in another family he would be hit regularly. I know this would not help and his behaviour would get worse, but I still think it would happen. I think some children are more likely to get spanked than others because some children just are more challenging, so I don't think it is just spanking causing the behavioural problems. Sounds like you did get lucky, I am jealous!

Oh, they have their moments/days, but I tell them every night before bed that I feel lucky to be their mama, because I really do. How old is your son? Mine was a bit rough as a toddler, but I did just what you're doing and he grew out of it - it truly was just a phase. Best part is, he grew into being a child with a great sense of empathy, which I'm sure will be the case with your son too - kids live what they learn.

I guess I was thinking of this group of ladies I know, we met in one of those monthly birth clubs about 5 years ago, and there's this one girl who is constantly griping about how "bad" her son is - he talks back, he acts out, he runs away in public, she makes him out to sound like some terror. Then she'll say stuff like, "he knew I had my spanking spoon in my purse today and he still backtalked to me in the checkout line so I had to use it on him. He never listens, I'm raising a devil!" She lives in Greece, so I told her that if she were in this country, hitting her child with a wooden spoon would constitute child abuse and he'd probably be taken away. One of the other moms deleted our comments, so I don't know if she ever read it, but everyone was like, "it's her child, her decision - parenting is tough!" It really bothers me to this day. I really don't know at what point she'd think, "oh, he's not listening to me when I whack him with my spoon, maybe I should try a different tactic... or shall I just hit harder/get a bigger spoon/ switch to a full-blown paddle?" She literally said, the other day, "I don't know why he's always hitting me and swearing at me!" And I was like, "Hmmmmm, wonder why my kids don't do that? Oh, well, probably because ABUSE IS NOT MODELED TO THEM AS AN APPROPRIATE WAY OF DEALING WITH SOMEONE THEY'RE UPSET WITH." :roll:

[tankgirl]

On what you are saying (since I am having quoting issue on my Nook), about when physical punishments stop achieving the desired results your are often only left with escalating the severity or increase the hits to try and go back to the previous results, which like a junkie looking for that first high, often never comes. I saw this in a lot of families, including my own. Eventually you become numb to the pain or fear, the only way to try to get those back is to go farther and farther in, or to abandon physical punishments.

Many times parents can lose control, because they lose the ability to even see how they evet jumped from a small hit on a diapered butt, to wailing away on a kid with a piece of plumbing

Line. This is some of the major issue I saw with hitting. It can get so nasty without out some people even noticing how out of control they have gotten.

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