Tomorrow (1/19) is Sarah's 30th b-day.

[mirele]

God has decided that lots of things were abominations. I mean, hello, eating shellfish. If God didn't want us to eat shellfish, why would s/he make it so damn tasty?

Bacon. Baaaaaaaaaaacon. So tasty. So forbidden.

[Conuly]

Once again, they failing to understand the difference between biological and genetic. Idiots.

They don't understand genetics either, which somehow strikes me as worse. I know Mendel said that traits are carried differently, but Mendel was studying pea plants! Pea plants are easy! Humans? Much more complicated. We've got multi-gene traits and a heck of a lot of environmental influence, not to mention randomization. (Randomization, btw, is why you can't clone a calico cat and get the same calico cat as a kitten, because the genes just determine the colors of all the hairs. Each individual hair color is random. It's also behind this comment. That and the fact that my foot is being attacked by two calico cats tag teaming me.)

[deelaem]

Sarah dear, your Bible says (kind of) that homosexuality is an abomination, not a sin. Never once does it say anything about it being a sin. And Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, according to your Bible.

Fundies, I wish you'd realize this is a battle you can't win.

[Georgiana]

There's no homosexual gene. It is a lot more complicated than that. I personally suspect that it has something to do with the hormonal cascades that happen in early sex differentiation. This would explain why boys are more likely to be gay when they have multiple older brothers.

There are physiological brain differences in gay and lesbian people, when compared to hetero people. That pretty much settles the matter for me. A fundie relative tried to argue that maybe gay behavior changes your brain structure, but I am not buying it.

There is some fairly strong evidence that the area of the hypothalmus that is associated with sexual attraction may be feminized in gay men/masculinized in lesbian women. I say fairly strong because this is difficult to study as it involves self-reporting, which is never 100% accurate. For example, PP would report himself as straight, but I have reason to disbelieve that. For the purpose of a study, however, he may throw off the data. Also, it is very likely that sexual orientation is far more complex than a few nodes in the hypothalmus, and so having a feminized/masculinized attraction center may pre-dispose your orientation one way or another but not completely control it. There are also some studies that suggest that this development is controlled by a gene, though this is less strong than the above.

BTW, it is VERY common for women to have certain areas of their brain masculinized and men to have feminized areas. When an area of the brain is sexually dimorphic, calling a certain way masculine or feminine just means more common in one gender than the other (around 80% is the rate, I think...but it was a long time since my basic neuro class). The vast majority of people have brains that have a few mixes thrown in there ;)

[Maude]

It's not even about whether or not you were 'born that way,' though I certainly believe sexuality has a genetic component. The real question is who is it harming? I'm not talking about some imagined spiritual harm that may or may not be the case, but real, demonstrable, provable harm. I've yet to come across anyone who can successfully make an argument against GLBTQ using that criteria.

[emmiedahl]

It's not even about whether or not you were 'born that way,' though I certainly believe sexuality has a genetic component. The real question is who is it harming? I'm not talking about some imagined spiritual harm that may or may not be the case, but real, demonstrable, provable harm. I've yet to come across anyone who can successfully make an argument against GLBTQ using that criteria.

Fundies are thoroughly convinced that other people living their own private lives somehow affects them, so this would never be a successful argument with them. But I completely agree. There is no way that a gay couple down the street in any way affects me, except maybe by making my thrift store decor look crude and un-stylish. :lol:

[Austin]

It's not even about whether or not you were 'born that way,' though I certainly believe sexuality has a genetic component. The real question is who is it harming? I'm not talking about some imagined spiritual harm that may or may not be the case, but real, demonstrable, provable harm. I've yet to come across anyone who can successfully make an argument against GLBTQ using that criteria.

Me, neither. I don't think there is such an argument. At least a cogent one.

[ricky_ticky]

I've read all the posts in this thread and extend my heartfelt sympathy to the abuse survivors who've posted.

I think that in Sarah's case there's far more to the fact that she's single than meets the eye.

For one, I don't agree that Sarah has trouble being "known" in her family's fundie circles. Like Meredith and our many other blogging sahd, Sarah has a web presence accessible by anyone. Her family hangs with the Duggars and comes into virtual contact with many families through on-line sales. Although the conference schedule is much lighter this year than in past years, it seems that the friends of the family, (like nonreversal Anna's family,) have been known by them for years. I doubt that they are running into many stay-at-home sons in their 30s at conferences. Anyway, being fundie royalty means that Sarah at the very least has a name in fundie Society.

On top of that, Sarah's older brothers must be some kind of resource of identifying potential partners. At the very least, they are out in the community in a way that Steve is not and they are the age of the potential mate Sarah is seeking.

I happen to think that Sarah, (and Steve,) must have impossibly high standards for a potential mate. WHO could stack up to Nathan, Christopher and Steve himself? He's got to be able to buy a home in their neighborhood debt-free, for starters. I think that Steve would be smart to purchase the next neighborhood home that comes up for sale simply to ensure that whichever of his daughters marries first can stay in the bosom of her family after marriage.

Even if Sarah and Steve have the most ridiculous requirements, (wouldn't you hate to see their list of questions?) it would still be very easy for God to produce the right man if He so chose to. I think that Sarah has priced herself out of the market, and her sisters should beware.

[FloraDoraDolly]

Another thought... Perhaps Sarah has inherited Teri's depressive tendencies? Feelings of hopelessness and helplessness are two of the symptoms of depression. When you're in that state of mind, you don't want to get out of bed in the morning, much less walk out the door.

[JesusFightClub]

I am not precisely a lesbian but help out when they are busy ;) and not only am I extremely fond of and have huge respect for my mum, my parents couldn't have done more to make me a girly girl if they tried. They gave me loads of dolls, put me in dresses, did my hair and finally as my mum said to me once "It just didn't take." I still wanted short hair and the cool toy submachine gun my neighbour had.

The human experience is so vast. Why do fundies try to stick it in a tiny box and claim they understand it all?

[latraviata]

There's no homosexual gene. It is a lot more complicated than that. I personally suspect that it has something to do with the hormonal cascades that happen in early sex differentiation. This would explain why boys are more likely to be gay when they have multiple older brothers.

There are physiological brain differences in gay and lesbian people, when compared to hetero people. That pretty much settles the matter for me. A fundie relative tried to argue that maybe gay behavior changes your brain structure, but I am not buying it.

http://weblogs.nrc.nl/swaab/2009/02/24/ ... -a-choice/

http://mindthebrain.neuroscience-cognit ... =DickSwaab

Biography

Professor Dick Swaab is an internationally renowned researcher in neuroscience, who received numerous awards and published over 470 scientific papers. He earned his medical (1968) and doctoral degrees (1970) at the University of Amsterdam and served as director

of the Netherlands Institute for Brain Research for 27 years. In 1985, Professor Swaab founded the Netherlands Brain Bank, which supplies the international research community with clinical and neuropathological brain tissue. Currently, he is also a leader of the Neuropsychiatric Disorders research team at the Netherlands Institute of Neuroscience and his main research interests include sexual differentiation of the brain, neurodegenerative disorders and depression. In 2008, Professor Dick Swaab received the Academy medal for his significant role in national and international neuroscience.

[Sola]

http://weblogs.nrc.nl/swaab/2009/02/24/ ... -a-choice/

http://mindthebrain.neuroscience-cognit ... =DickSwaab

Biography

Professor Dick Swaab is an internationally renowned researcher in neuroscience, who received numerous awards and published over 470 scientific papers. He earned his medical (1968) and doctoral degrees (1970) at the University of Amsterdam and served as director

of the Netherlands Institute for Brain Research for 27 years. In 1985, Professor Swaab founded the Netherlands Brain Bank, which supplies the international research community with clinical and neuropathological brain tissue. Currently, he is also a leader of the Neuropsychiatric Disorders research team at the Netherlands Institute of Neuroscience and his main research interests include sexual differentiation of the brain, neurodegenerative disorders and depression. In 2008, Professor Dick Swaab received the Academy medal for his significant role in national and international neuroscience.

Dick Swab..... *snigger*

/juvenile humour

Just because they haven't yet found a gene for homosexuality, doesn't mean there isn't one (or more). There's around 20000 genes in the human genome and different combinations of genes can have different effects. Autism is pretty much accepted to be genetic these days, yet the genes involved haven't yet been identified, but most people these days accept that parenting has nothing to do with it. Sometimes it takes several genes in different combinations to have an effect so when you are talking about the genome having around 20000 genes, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack finding the right ones in the right combinations. Sometimes certain combinations of genes are affected by environmental issues so again that makes the search finding the cause even harder.

Anyway, I blame straight people, they're the ones who keep having gay kids :lol:

[Constance Vigilance]

It is very unlikely at this point that there is a "homosexuality gene". Like many other complex conditions which fall across a spectrum, sexuality is probably influenced by many (dozens, 100s, 1000s) genes, each of which make a small contribution to predisposition to a condition. There are probably environmental factors as well (like someone mentioned upthread, the observation that more other brothers make a boy more likely to be gay is good evidence for that).

ETA: riffle

[Creaky Mom]

I've thought that maybe some prospective groom has been warned off pursuing Sarah on account of how isolationist Steve and the family are. Males going the courtship route vet prospective brides through their parents. Even by most fundie standards Maxwells would be considered questionable since he has forsaken gathering with an established church and gone off on his own. This alone is a sign of instability enough to warn most, fundies included, to stay away from that family.

edited for a Maxwellian literary fail (I really need to stop reading them.)

[MamaJunebug]

I have a photo of my beloved brother a few days before he ended his own life. Like Sarah, he is smiling broadly, cuddled up to a nephew and niece.

His eyes also look like Sarah's in the "thank you" post photo: I can't speak for Sarah, but I know now that Brother's eyes were full of unspeakable sadness.

I'm not saying Sarah is suicidal, nothing of the sort. I'm just saying that I *see* sadness there. She's in my prayers.

[kpmom]

Yes, usually when Sarah's playing with her nieces she looks genuinely happy, but the smile looks a little forced in this post. Maybe holding that wooden card with that big red #30 on it really hit home.

I also wonder what Sarah makes of getting so many "we're praying for a husband for you" messages? Even a portion of their fundy fans seem to think her life is quite isolated.

[virginmojito]

In that family photo... Steve looks like Hannibal Lecter. No, not A. Hopkins, the actor. Hannibal Lecter. The very character.

That 'amazing' cherry wood card was a literal scarlat letter.

[1004srs]

I worry that Steve-O may be abusive towards Sarah after reading our posts. Hours and hours of kneeling and praying.

I don't see how she can leave. She has no money of her own, no skills, no education, and no friends outside of their headship's circle.

[lilwriter85]

During my first two years of college, I attended a community college and I had many classmates who were older and more conservative. In one of my classes, there was one woman who said that is weird that her brother was never gay because he grew up in a home with nothing but sisters. That woman had some other crazy beliefs regarding gay people. I laughed at her when she said that, because at the time I was dating a guy who was one of four boys and his youngest brother was gay. By my crazy classmate's logic my ex's brother shouldn't have been gay because he grew up with boys.

[Witsec7]

In the real world no one would blink an eye at a thirty year old single woman having a career, living independently from her family.

[Creaky Mom]

In the real world, Sarah would have been snapped up long ago. Like maybe if she'd gone to Wheaton and gotten an English degree, for sure she would have come out with a M.R.S.

Still time Steve. Get that girl going.

You are right MJB - she looks depleted.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

ITA on how sad Sarah looks...I noted in earlier pictures they posted - I think from Christmas - that she looks like she's been spending a lot of time crying. It's even more apparent in the b-day post.

[Austin]

I worry that Steve-O may be abusive towards Sarah after reading our posts. Hours and hours of kneeling and praying.

I don't see how she can leave. She has no money of her own, no skills, no education, and no friends outside of their headship's circle.

She would have to defect, a la Razing Ruth and Angri-la. It's sad that her only choices are defection and wasting her life.

[library_youth]

A few women have commented on the post that they also didn't get married until they were late 20s/early 30s. Maybe hearing that will make Sarah feel better. Probably not. She looks so sad behind the smile.

[browngrl]

A few women have commented on the post that they also didn't get married until they were late 20s/early 30s. Maybe hearing that will make Sarah feel better. Probably not. She looks so sad behind the smile.

I was one of those who was single and sad at 30. All I could see in my future was work and duty. My spent my 30th birthday calculating out how many more weekends I would spend alone before I died (should I live to the average age). Here is where Sarah and I seem to part. After this grim birthday - I arranged to meet a therapist. My counsellor helped me have a clearer and more realistic view of my life and I was able to see all the good things around me. Most importantly I was able to see that I was not a victim and that I had choices. I went on a diet. Exercised. Bought myself a new car and a great vacation. I never liked bars and pubs but I did go out to the theatre, and concerts and to dinners out with friends and family. By 32 I was married to Mr. Browngirl and living the life I always wanted. If Sarah reads here I would say to her: you are not a victim. You have choices.