Mark Driscoll again

[Rachel333]

I know we've talked a lot about Mark Driscoll lately, but I don't think this particular interview has been discussed.

In summary, Justin Brierley, a British man whose wife is a pastor, interviewed Driscoll for a podcast, and at one point the conversation turned to women in leadership. Basically, Driscoll seems to think that women can't lead a church because they can't talk to men about porn and masturbation. He's also very disparaging to Brierley's church; apparently the men at Driscoll's church are much more manly and altogether superior to those at Brierley's (okay, he doesn't actually say that, but it's implied).

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I really hate the whole "church has to be manly" trend. They say they're counteracting the "feminization" of Evangelical Christianity, but I think women are still very much being marginalized in Evangelical churches, and men like Driscoll are making it worse.

[debrand]

One of the problems is that Driscoll's view on manliness is very insulting to men. Driscoll, himself, doesn't come off as manly so much as immature and egotistical. It is like he watched one too many episodes of MTV's programming and decided that all men should be stuck in adolescent mode trying to prove how tough that they are.

Most normal people don't have to prove how manly or feminine that they are. The fact that fundies/conservatives do really says something about their lack of confidence.

[emeraldskull]

LOL, I would agree Debrand. If I was to tag a "manly man", Driscoll would definitely NOT make that list. What these fundie guys don't realize is that making their wives equal to them SHOWS they are real men, that they don't have to have all the power and don't have to crush someone else in order to feel good about themselves.

Driscoll just comes across as a jerk teenager trying to be "cool" and tell everybody else how to, too. All I can say is he doesn't even know the Bible he says he believes and teaches to other people.

[Rachel333]

It just occurred to me that I didn't post a link. Whoops! :lol:

Here's the actual hour-long interview (which I'll admit I didn't listen to): http://media.premier.org.uk/unbelievabl ... 1ec0e0.mp3

And here's a summary of the parts about women: cognitivediscopants.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/driscoll-brierley-on-women-in-leadership/

[saraelise]

Isn't the Church a female entity though? Like, god/jesus is male and the church is female? In that case the church has no business being manly, "beautiful womanhood" and all that.

[MamaJunebug]

...I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I really hate the whole "church has to be manly" trend. They say they're counteracting the "feminization" of Evangelical Christianity, but I think women are still very much being marginalized in Evangelical churches, and men like Driscoll are making it worse.

OMdawg, talk to me! I used to listen to the talk show of a Lutheran pastor/broadcaster, "Issues, Etc.", for doctrinal discussions, but then the host's opinions became so stridently conservative that they made no sense:

One of his repeated rants had to do with the feminization of church and to illustrate that, he ragged mercilessly on the phenomenon of -- wait for it -- pots of flowers in the altar area.

Here's the thing, ladies and germs: Pots of Flowers decorate the set of the NFL panel-discussion desk!!!!!!!!!!

So is the NFL being feminized? Or is a splash of colors and organic shapes just something that's universally pleasing to the eye?

Le sigh. You know who don't have no pots uv flowers in his church, by dinggy? Steven Anderson, that's who! Real men are 200% masculine!

Calming down some: The idea that women can't talk to men about porn and masturbation is crazy, of course we can. Addictions and obsessions can afflict the whole human population, not just half of it.

And the idea that discussions of porn and masturbation are somehow intrinsically necessary to having a church? Nucking futs! This guy is nucking futs, is all. Church is about the word of God and the forgiveness of our sins because of the life and work of Jesus Christ. What Driscoll's calling "church" I would call "current topics and support group." Not the same thing. Oh wait -- MANLY current topics and MANLY support, of course. No La Leche League groups need apply to use a meeting room! :naughty:

[kaetrin]

I wish I knew where to find it, but one of the regular commenters on the old True Womanhood blog wrote a short series on her own blog, back in the day, in response to all these sorts of claims about the church being too feminized. She suggested that it was actually too masculinized in the wrong ways, like being run on a business model rather than relationally. Something like that. I thought it was interesting.

Also IIRC Driscoll has a really hard time with the church-as-bride language.

[Austin]

Most normal people don't have to prove how manly or feminine that they are. The fact that fundies/conservatives do really says something about their lack of confidence.

I think about this, too, when considering fundies' obsession with "manliness" or "feminity". It's all a bit silly. I just don't think typical people obsess about the need to "be" something, beyond who they are, every day. I am a fairly feminine woman. I like pink and the occasional small floral print and a bit of make-up and for my hair to look nice. I wear clothes that are made for women for the most part. But even if I wouldn't describe myself as a feminine woman who likes the things I just described, most importantly, I am a woman. I don't really need to try to be one.

[BogoPogo1]

I think it reflects an underlying lack of confidence in their own salvation. On the sliding scale of who is and who isn't saved, they have a few points over "the world" because of their show of masculinity and femininity.

[fakepigtails73]

Driscoll seems so annoying and pretentious.

He seems like a "biker" version of my favourite Calvinist preachers (ahum!), the Bayly Bros.

If Driscoll and PP Anderson had a fistfight, I wonder who's win?? Gosh, to come up with this is a sign that I have too much free time this AM, :lol!

[QAF_Rocks]

Is it wrong that I want Doug Phillips and Mark Driscoll to be caught in a sex scandal together? ;)

[fancypants]

Is it wrong that I want Doug Phillips and Mark Driscoll to be caught in a sex scandal together? ;)

yes, that probably is wrong. Lol! Me personally? I'd rather not hear any more about Driscoll's sex life than I already have. Bleh.

eta I think Anderson would take Driscoll. Driscoll's bigger but I think he's probably overweight and lazy. We know Anderson works out and tries to keep himself fit. But who knows?

[margiebargie]

Is it wrong that I want Doug Phillips and Mark Driscoll to be caught in a sex scandal together? ;)

Lol. It's not wrong. It's inevitable.

[Patsy]

God, if you are real: look. I will place my frumper on the floor. If there remains Dougie's and Driscoll's santorum on this cloth, yet the ground is dry, I will know of your existence.

[JesusFightClub]

Is it wrong that I want Doug Phillips and Mark Driscoll to be caught in a sex scandal together? ;)

No. That is lulzy.

Do. not. get these guys. I am shaving my head tonight. I am wearing a man's shirt and (far too big) trousers. I am 100% female. It's who you are, not how you look.

[Rachel333]

God, if you are real: look. I will place my frumper on the floor. If there remains Dougie's and Driscoll's santorum on this cloth, yet the ground is dry, I will know of your existence.

Nice somewhat obscure Biblical reference. :lol: