Does Joy look... not joyful?

[jaelh]

[

Maybe because the world doesn't revolve around her personal needs and her wants?

...

If women don't want to display their bodies to 8 or 9 year old boy in the locker room of a gym they paid to join (and I don't know too many who would), then Mommy needs to make other arrangements.

Wait....

So the world doesn't revolve around the wants of the mother, but it does revolve around the desire of women to change without a child being present?

You can't make the first assertion without undermining the second.

[QAF_Rocks]

Being a parent sometimes means slight inconveniences. Sure, it's nice to keep your exact routine and just drag the kid along wherever you go, but sometimes you have to make accommodations for the good of the kid. It's really not asking too much to take kid into account while making plans.

In many situations I would agree with you. But I think you're envisioning the mother as choosing to drag her child to the gym so she wouldn't have to be inconvenienced. That might not actually be the case. It could have been someplace like the YMCA or JCC, where families go to enjoy the facilities together.

I know when I was a child, we went to the JCC because my brother and I loved to swim there. It wasn't for my parents' benefit at all. Taking us swimming was the entire purpose of the trip.

[emmiedahl]

I don't care who my children see naked. I care about them being protected. I know that relatives are more likely to commit a crime, but that is because relatives have more opportunity. A man alone with a boy in a restroom has a huge opportunity. Children have been killed in public restrooms.

Child safety experts generally agree that most kids are not able to handle an emergency or threat to their safety until around age 10. That's why it's best to avoid letting your child use public restrooms in large areas, such as those found in stadiums or movie theaters, or bathrooms with multiple entrances, without you. Either take your child with you to the bathroom you use, or better yet, try to find a family restroom.

http://childparenting.about.com/od/heal ... imself.htm

So your need to undress without children around comes before that boy's need to be safe by the parameters set by experts? Nope. Sorry.

[CanadianHippie]

Once again, you are missing the point. And I don't need your lecture about invisible disabilities; I have a very tall, dark and handsome 38 year old autistic brother.

We're talking about a mother bringing a nine year old boy into a females-only locker room without the consent of the women who were in there changing. Someone else said "but what if he's disabled?" (despite the fact that there is no indication he was.) My specific point - if there is no obvious indication he is blind or mentally handicapped - most women would object to a boy that old watching them undress and his mother should not have brought him in there without the prior consent of the patrons themselves. Is that clear enough?

Further, are you suggesting that all "disabled" boys are incapable of having sexual interest in women's bodies? That mindset seems incredibly shallow to me.

For someone with brother with autism you seem to lack the understanding that "no indication of a disability" does not equal no disability. What I am suggesting to you, is that when you differentiate between "apparent disability" and "no apparent disability" in determining whether or not a 9 year old is capable of hanging out alone somewhere away from his parent/guardian while said parent/guardian changes means that someone has to have some obvious physical problem in order to have their own needs met. It has nothing to do with sexual interest at all. I make all the same arguments when someone gets pissed off about someone with "no apparent disability" who refuses to give up their seat on the bus, or someone with "no apparent disability" who receives some other form of special treatment to have their needs met or their safety ensured.

Decided that someone has to be obviously disabled in order to have their special needs met is sounding very shallow to me. Like you think appearance dictates who they are.

[1004srs]

The 8 year old boy is also a paying memeber of the YMCA. I have one and dues are more expensive, if you have a fmaily membership.

Koolmom has it right. Mom doesn't want to bring in junior to the locker room, but doesn't have a choice. Leaving him at home and taking your daughter to swim alone isn't cool. It isn't safe to send him in to the Mens Locker room alone until he's large enough to defend himself. THere is usually only 1 family locker room and they fill up fast. Most of us hurry and get the family changed while hoping to not offend anyone.

How about putting yourself in the Mom's shoes.....single Mom, wanting to take the kiddos swimming at the Y.

Try showing a little compassion. WHy not take your clothes into a large stall and change?

[JenniferJuniper]

Jennifer, I'm trying to understand your point of view. Would you be uncomfortable if it was a girl or woman who was looking at your body with sexual interest?

This isn't about me.

People who pay for a gym membership that has separate showers and locker rooms for males and females didn't sign up for a unisex experience and women don't expect males in their locker room anymore than men would expect to find women in theirs.

Which is not to say that some people (particularly in one of those locker rooms) wouldn't be perfectly okay with the opposite sex sharing changing space, but most women would not be. I can't imagine too many being comfortable undressing in front of a boy that old just as I can't imagine most men being comfortable nude in front of a strange 8 or 9 year old girl.

That's just the way it is. The fact that someone feels she's so special and important that she can 1) break the rules and 2) disregard how the dues paying patrons feel about her son watching them undress is indicative of today's growing narcissist culture.

Mind you, in the OP, the boy wasn't using the locker room. He was playing his guitar waiting for mom. So Mommy either needs to find a gym with a family changing area (stalls) or get a babysitter. Because sooner or later, probably sooner, he's going to be kicked out rather rudely and I'm sure that's going to create even more embarrassment for the poor kid.

[LilMissMetaphor]

All I want to do is put a frickin peanut butter sandwich in my kid's lunch once in a while...

[emmiedahl]

Oh, LMM, you are stirring some shit up. :D

[jaelh]

All I want to do is put a frickin peanut butter sandwich in my kid's lunch once in a while...

babhahahahahaha :)

[QAF_Rocks]

This isn't about me.

Well, you keep saying that "most women" would be uncomfortable being naked in front of an 8 or 9 year old boy. That leads me to believe that you count yourself in that number. It sure sounds to me like you are upset by the idea that a male child might look at your naked body and perhaps have a sexual thought.

So I think it's reasonable to ask if you would feel the same about a girl or woman. Because I guarantee that there are a heck of a lot more lesbian or bisexual women in locker rooms than little boys, and some of those girls or women might be having sexual thoughts about your body.

Mind you, in the OP, the boy wasn't using the locker room. He was playing his guitar waiting for mom. So Mommy either needs to find a gym with a family changing area (stalls) or get a babysitter. Because sooner or later, probably sooner, he's going to be kicked out rather rudely and I'm sure that's going to create even more embarrassment for the poor kid.

I don't think we have enough information to say that the boy didn't use the locker room. Maybe he had already changed and was waiting for his mother to finish up. We really don't know. We also don't know that he was embarrassed. I agree it would be embarrassing for him to be kicked out, and I already said that I think 8-9 is a good age to try using the men's facilities on his own.

In the end, I trust a mother's judgment, and I think a child's safety takes precedence over anything else. Not all boys have fathers to take them places, and not all girls have mothers. Unless those parents hire a babysitter or nanny to follow them everywhere they go, sometimes it's going to be necessary for them to take their opposite-sex children into the men's or women's room.

[galaxygirl]

Just sticking in my head to say that there's no way you could have been able to tell whether I was a boy or a girl when I was 8 unless you knew me. Short hair and hated to wear dresses and skirts. Total tomboy.

[JenniferJuniper]

Well, you keep saying that "most women" would be uncomfortable being naked in front of an 8 or 9 year old boy. That leads me to believe that you count yourself in that number. It sure sounds to me like you are upset by the idea that a male child might look at your naked body and perhaps have a sexual thought.

No, it really isn't about me. Before I developed a nasty sun eczema allergy thing in my mid-twenties, I frequented a naturist beach on Cape Cod.

I'm an attorney so I tend to look at everything in the big picture.

In the end, I trust a mother's judgment, and I think a child's safety takes precedence over anything else. Not all boys have fathers to take them places, and not all girls have mothers.

I think you are being more than a bit melodramatic here. We're talking about a gym, for heaven's sake, and you are presenting a straw man all-or-nothing situation that simply doesn't exist in this scenario. "The boy must be in that ladies locker room or he isn't safe!" Not quite.

Mom doesn't need to go to the gym. She wants to. If her son is also exercising, she didn't need to choose a gym that had an open ladies-only locker room option instead of a more family friendly stall set-up. But she did. Many gyms have a cheap supervised play room for kids under 10. Apparently she didn't seek out that option. She could go to the gym when the kid is at school. Or when a relative can baby-sit. She had tons of other options, no please don't go on with the "the poor mother has no choice here and it's the only way she can keep him safe!"

Boys over the age of 5 don't belong in a designated female only open changing rooms at the gym. It's really not that complicated. Just last year, I was at a clothing store that has a large open dressing room that permits no boys at all, except for a small separated area that allows boys under the age of 5 only. (You aren't even allowed in this area to change unless you verbally agree it's okay if some little boys are around. Which I always do because there's more space and mirrors there.) One woman brought in two twin boys who clearly were at least 7 or 8, and several women immediately complained. Mom and the boys were told to leave by the clothes checker. Dems da rules. If you don't like it, you don't shop there or you leave the kids at home.

[jaelh]

Jennifer, as an attorney you seem thus to be missing the really big picture. In the situation annalea was complaining about, there seems *not* to be a rule, or else she could have responded.

Boys over the age of 5 don't belong in a designated female only open changing rooms at the gym. It's really not that complicated

The only rule you seem to have ID'd is your assertion boys (over the age of 5?! good lord) don't belong in female only changing rooms. This is, however, nothing more than your opinion. Simply asserting it doesn't make it true.

Further -

She had tons of other options

You have absolutely no knowledge *what so ever* of the options available to the woman in question. None. Good lord - is this how you run a case? By encouraging a "filling in the blanks" with information you suggest?

Honestly, I can't tell if you're trolling or being sincere.

[QAF_Rocks]

No, it really isn't about me. Before I developed a nasty sun eczema allergy thing in my mid-twenties, I frequented a naturist beach on Cape Cod.

I'm an attorney so I tend to look at everything in the big picture.

So you're not personally offended?

If you're a former nudist, then I'm even more baffled by your reaction. I just don't understand the pearl-clutching. It comes across like you (or the women you're speaking for) are paranoid about little boys possibly having sexual thoughts. I mean, you even said it was "fetish-inducing" for a little boy to see naked women.

I understand that you're a lawyer, and maybe you're just arguing for the heck of it, but we have almost zero information on the "case" in question. No one even knows if there is an official rule at the OP's gym about little boys being in the women's locker room. If there's a posted rule, then fine. I'd recommend the mother follow the rule. However, that might not be the case. And I'm certainly not aware of any actual laws about this.

I'll say this, I had no idea locker rooms were so controversial! But indeed, Google proves that they are. I looked up "children in locker room" and found one woman complaining about a two-year-old boy in the women's locker room. Two years old!

I think you are being more than a bit melodramatic here. We're talking about a gym, for heaven's sake, and you are presenting a straw man all-or-nothing situation that simply doesn't exist in this scenario. "The boy must be in that ladies locker room or he isn't safe!" Not quite.

I'm not being melodramatic. How many times do I have to say that I actually agree that 8-9 is an appropriate age to start sending a boy to the men's locker room? But there are situations where it might not be safe, depending on the child or depending on the location, and I trust the mother's judgment.

Besides, it's true that plenty of boys don't have fathers to take them to the gym. My parents are both women. If my brother wanted to go swimming at the JCC, they were the ones who had to take him. It would have been unfair (and more than a little ridiculous) to leave him at home while the three of us went swimming.

Mom doesn't need to go to the gym. She wants to. If her son is also exercising, she didn't need to choose a gym that had an open ladies-only open locker room option instead of a more family friendly stall set-up. But she did. Many gyms have a cheap supervised play room for kids under 10. Apparently she didn't seek out that option. She could go to the gym when the kid is at school. Or when a relative can baby-sit. She had tons of other options, no please don't go on with the "the poor mother has no choice here and it's the only way she can keep him safe!"

How in the world do you know any of this? We're all just speculating on the situation here. All we know is that there was an 8 or 9 year old practicing guitar in the women's locker room. That's it. We don't know anything else. We don't even know that it was a boy, for heaven's sake. Assuming the kid was clothed, for all we know it could have been a butch little girl. And if it was a boy, we don't know why he was there, if his mother felt it was unsafe for him to be elsewhere, or what the situation was. I think it's completely unfair to say that the mother had "tons of other options" when we have so little information.

Boys over the age of 5 don't belong in a designated female only open changing rooms at the gym. It's really not that complicated. Just last year, I was at a clothing store that has a large open dressing room that permits no boys at all, except for a small separated area that allows boys under the age of 5 only. (You aren't even allowed in this area to change unless you verbally agree it's okay if some little boys are around. Which I always do because there's more space and mirrors there.) One woman brought in two twin boys who clearly were at least 7 or 8, and several women immediately complained. Mom and the boys were told to leave by the clothes checker. Dems da rules. If you don't like it, you don't shop there or you leave the kids at home.

Over 5? That seems far too young to me. Do you have children, and how old were your children when you sent them off alone in public? Because I can't envision letting a kindergartener or first grader go anywhere by himself. If the store has that policy, then fine. I think it's a ridiculous rule, but I find it hard to believe that there are that many women who are so offended or threatened by the presence of children. And I haven't seen any posted signs (not that I've been looking for them) in any of the department stores around here.

[emmiedahl]

My 7 yo still goes in the women's bathroom/changing room/locker room with me. He does not stare, he just does his thing. In locker rooms, I ask him to sit on a bench facing a wall or lockers, with his back to the ladies.

He is too young to be without supervision from a parent or parent substitute. Period. And I will not put him in danger just to avoid offending someone. I know there is only a mild risk, but I protect my children from any unnecessary risks to their safety. Very few babies electrocute themselves, but I put plastic thingies in my outlets. Because why not? If I can keep them safe with only a mild inconvenience, why not? I don't like people seeing me undressed, but I would run down the street naked in January if it kept someone else's child just a little safer.

[JenniferJuniper]

Jennifer, as an attorney you seem thus to be missing the really big picture. In the situation annalea was complaining about, there seems *not* to be a rule, or else she could have responded.

The only rule you seem to have ID'd is your assertion boys (over the age of 5?! good lord) don't belong in female only changing rooms. This is, however, nothing more than your opinion. Simply asserting it doesn't make it true.

Further -

You have absolutely no knowledge *what so ever* of the options available to the woman in question. None. Good lord - is this how you run a case? By encouraging a "filling in the blanks" with information you suggest?

Honestly, I can't tell if you're trolling or being sincere.

Trolling? I guess I could ask the same thing about you.

As for rules, "Women's Locker Room" means just that. No rational gym owner would allow males school age and up to frequent a female locker room for fear of the possible loss of customers at a minimum and at worst, potential civil litigation.

Of course she had other options than to be at a particular gym with her 8 -9 year old son in the ladies locker room. It's ridiculous to suggest she didn't. The first option we know she had was not to be there with him in the first place. It’s a GYM, not an emergency room, or even a restroom. And while there is a remote chance she lives in the middle of No-wheres-ville with one gym, it’s highly unlikely that particular gym was her only choice.

Nah. I still vote "typical world-revolves-around-me narcissistâ€. I think it keeps getting worse because they have so many enablers out there. :P

[Boogalou]

And while there is a remote chance she lives in the middle of No-wheres-ville with one gym, it’s highly unlikely that particular gym was her only choice.

I don't really want to get into this but if she lives somewhere with only one gym how is it unlikely that was her only choice? Or are you saying that it is highly unlikely she lives somewhere with only one gym?

[Lily]

She hasn't looked happy for a long time :( I don't think it's really a good idea to dismiss any unhappiness as "she's a 14y/o." Not every teenager is sullen or dislikes their family, and it's not normal if they do. It's common, but it's a sign that something is wrong, no matter how much pop culture and parents try to portray being unhappy as an inherent condition of teenagers to excuse their own responsibility rather than something that actually needs addressing.

She seems depressed. It's such a shame, she's always been my favourite of the Duggar kids, and I just hope that A: she gets out, and B: she can come out of it okay, and have a happy life. Of course I wish that for all the Duggar kids, but she seems among the most hopeful, even with her current demeanor.

[Lily]

Wow, this thread has derailed. That's what I got for not reading.

A 5 year old is plenty old enough to wait quietly outside while mum changes, or to go in his own room while mum waits outside. If you don't like the rules of the gym and want to keep your pwecious widdle boy fused to you until he's 30, go to another gym or work out at home.

[JenniferJuniper]

I don't really want to get into this but if she lives somewhere with only one gym how is it unlikely that was her only choice? Or are you saying that it is highly unlikely she lives somewhere with only one gym?

Poorly worded; I do apologize. Maybe she lives in the middle of nowhere with only one gym, but probably not. Further, if it is the only gym for many miles, there's a greater likelihood it caters to a larger segment of the population. (kids, older folks, etc.) I'm sometimes required to do long stays in more remote areas and I've found that to frequently be the case.

[JenniferJuniper]

Wow, this thread has derailed. That's what I got for not reading.

A 5 year old is plenty old enough to wait quietly outside while mum changes, or to go in his own room while mum waits outside. If you don't like the rules of the gym and want to keep your pwecious widdle boy fused to you until he's 30, go to another gym or work out at home.

Brilliant!

[Lillybee]

I think that since Michael has been born Ma and Pa have been loaning out this J'slave to Smuggler and new family.

[Sadie]

The OP (of the bathroom topic) mentioned that the boy seemed pretty "insecure", which to me, indicates that he is bordering on too old to be in a female's locker room.

I don't know why so many people are talking about the YMCA or other family places. The OP never indicated that it was the Y or JCC or wherever. Just a "gym". Not having all the facts, it's hard to say - but would a boy who came to go swimming with his mother/sister/family/whatever, bring a guitar with "just in case"? Dunno. *In my opinion*, it seems like the boy brought along a guitar to keep himself occupied while his mother worked out.

Carry on! ;)

[annalena]

Not everyone is the same age cognitively as they are chronologically either. A 9 year old boy can look like every 9 year old boy but have the mental age of a 6 or 4 or younger child.

He actually looked like he was cognitively his actual age, as far as I can judge.

Just to make that clear- I did not feel threatened, but I felt like I was harrassing him. Maybe it's because I've been molested myself, so I am uber concious when it comes to kids and anything that is related to sexuality. But I have never really thought of myself as modest, I run around in the thermic bath/ sauna naked without a concern. I think it's good it's 16 + though.

I don't think kids are threatened by seeing me, for example, wearing a summer dress and high heels, but being right there in the changing room... I don't know, I feel like he was left there and didn't have a choice.

Btw, I am totally in for a child-centric world. I would not want him to be brought in there FOR HIS OWN SAKE. Just to make that clear!!! If they had a kids/teen area at the gym with video games or whatever, I'd be all for it.

I think the chances of him being a "transgender boy with a vagina" are, um, rather small. And no, I am positive it was not a girl. Very positive.

[emmiedahl]

Brilliant!

Yes, so brilliant that it is considered child neglect and illegal.

Maybe not so brilliant.