Does Joy look... not joyful?

[CanadianHippie]

He actually looked like he was cognitively his actual age, as far as I can judge.

The problem is, unless you talk to someone who has, say the after effects of a traumatic brain injury, you may go your whole life not knowing they have be returned to age 6 for the rest of their life.

[JenniferJuniper]

Yes, so brilliant that it is considered child neglect and illegal.

Maybe not so brilliant.

Oh, the drama! :violin:

God forbid an 8 or 9 year old boy wait outside a locker room for his mother to get changed. Total child neglect. Call the authorities! Much better to embarrass him to pieces by forcing him to sit around watching a bunch of naked women, most of whom are giving him "what the fuck are you doing in here" dagger looks.

For the last time, if you don't like the rules, find alternatives. The women don't want your older boy in there, your son probably is mortified over it, and it's pretty much a certainty the gym manager is going to kick him out if he gets complaints, for reasons related both to customer service and legal liability concerns.

[annalena]

Ok, how many times do I have to state I did NOT feel threatened by the poor boy being there, but sorry for him. Hope to have made that clear by now. He didn't exactly chose to be surrounded by vaginas and tits, to say it bluntly. I don't know. I would NOT have feeled very well in male locker room at that age!

It was not the YMCA, it was not the only gym for miles. It's a gym in German suburbal/rural area, but there are many around to attend. I know that pretty exactly because to try that particular gym for 6 weeks I got a voucher on groupon for a program called „Germany gets fit“ (no kidding) and they had a list of studios around here to chose from. They had quite some options, and by far not all studios participate in this program.

And he didn't come to go swimming .They do not have a pool there. Where did y'all get that from? :hand: It's just a regular gym, y'know. With a regular locker room with showers and sauna.

edited for proper smiley.

[annalena]

Oh, the drama! :violin:

God forbid an 8 or 9 year old boy wait outside a locker room for his mother to get changed. Total child neglect. Call the authorities! Much better to embarrass him to pieces by forcing him to sit around watching a bunch of naked women, most of whom are giving him "what the fuck are you doing in here" dagger looks.

For the last time, if you don't like the rules, find alternatives. The women don't want your older boy in there, your son probably is mortified over it, and it's pretty much a certainty the gym manager is going to kick him out if he gets complaints, for reasons related both to customer service and legal liability concerns.

May I also point out this is one of the richest areas of Germany and not some drug border town. It's not very likely for kids to just be taken away from INSIDE the gym. I mean, shit happens everywhere, but it's not exactly dangerous here.

[jaelh]

Oh, the drama! :violin:

God forbid an 8 or 9 year old boy wait outside a locker room for his mother to get changed. Total child neglect. Call the authorities! Much better to embarrass him to pieces by forcing him to sit around watching a bunch of naked women, most of whom are giving him "what the fuck are you doing in here" dagger looks.

For the last time, if you don't like the rules, find alternatives. The women don't want your older boy in there, your son probably is mortified over it, and it's pretty much a certainty the gym manager is going to kick him out if he gets complaints, for reasons related both to customer service and legal liability concerns.

Wait...

Leaving a 5 year old unattended (that was the age you stipulated before, right? and was the age in the post you were responding to with the above) could well get you in serious trouble.

Further it appears there wasn't a rule that says the children aren't allowed.

*maybe* the gym manager says the kid has to go, maybe not.

Why do you keep talking in certainties about things that.. aren't certain at all?

annalea - i think we've moved pretty much into the hypothetical, loosely based on your story.

[annalena]

Wait...

Leaving a 5 year old unattended (that was the age you stipulated before, right? and was the age in the post you were responding to with the above) could well get you in serious trouble.

Further it appears there wasn't a rule that says the children aren't allowed.

*maybe* the gym manager says the kid has to go, maybe not.

Why do you keep talking in certainties about things that.. aren't certain at all?

annalea - i think we've moved pretty much into the hypothetical, loosely based on your story.

well...it happens. :)

there was no clear rule or sign "children of the opposite gender not allowed in locker room", but i have never thought that was needed before, because i never ran into such a situation.

so to everyone who says it is ok- what age SHOULD boys be kept out of the women's locker room?

[JenniferJuniper]

Ok, how many times do I have to state I did NOT feel threatened by the poor boy being there, but sorry for him. Hope to have made that clear by now. He didn't exactly chose to be surrounded by vaginas and tits, to say it bluntly. I don't know. I would NOT have feeled very well in male locker room at that age!

Of course you wouldn't; it might have even been very traumatic for you as a young girl, as it could have been for this boy.

It's not a question of you being threatened by his presence, but many woman would - and IMHO absolutely should - have qualms about being naked in the presence of an unknown boy that age, especially if his mother was off in the shower or bathroom. It's not unheard of for women to be accused - falsely or otherwise- of child sexual abuse, (see all those day care cases from the 80's and 90's) and believe me, there are enough litigious nutters (in the US at least) out there who would have no qualms setting someone up and also suing the gym for monetary damages in the process. I've seen in happen several times in other settings. Had I been in your situation, I would have covered up and asked his mother to have him wait just outside the door for her.

[Vex]

I feel that if a gym specifically does not want children in opposite-gender change rooms, they need to make the area child-free and provide some kind of creche environment where a child can be safely left while the parent changes. I don't have kids, but I don't mind if people bring their kids into bathrooms or changerooms. I don't think parents should have to forsake going to the gym just because they need to bring their kids along, out of consideration for other patrons.

I feel like if you say kids of a certain age can't be allowed in opposite-sex bathrooms because they might check out patrons, it's not such a huge leap to say gay/bi people can't be in the change rooms either in case they make other patrons uncomfortable because they might check them out too.

[annalena]

Of course you wouldn't; it might have even been very traumatic for you as a young girl, as it could have been for this boy.

It's not a question of you being threatened by his presence, but many woman would - and IMHO absolutely should - have qualms about being naked in the presence of an unknown boy that age, especially if his mother was off in the shower or bathroom. It's not unheard of for women to be accused - falsely or otherwise- of child sexual abuse, (see all those day care cases from the 80's and 90's) and believe me, there are enough litigious nutters (in the US at least) out there who would have no qualms setting someone up and also suing the gym for monetary damages in the process. I've seen in happen several times in other settings. Had I been in your situation, I would have covered up and asked his mother to have him wait just outside the door for her.

ok to put a new twist on all this...

here's how i think the story evolved.

when i walked towards the gym, i saw this a boy his age, i think it was the same one, playing around on one of the machines, obviously bored. after i walked in there and talked to the guy at the counter for a little bit, i went to the ladies' locker room and there he was, playing guitar.

apparently he had gotten bored playing around on the machines while his mom worked out.

ok. but can't he go hang out in the guys' lcoker room, then?

[annalena]

I feel that if a gym specifically does not want children in opposite-gender change rooms, they need to make the area child-free and provide some kind of creche environment where a child can be safely left while the parent changes. I don't have kids, but I don't mind if people bring their kids into bathrooms or changerooms. I don't think parents should have to forsake going to the gym just because they need to bring their kids along, out of consideration for other patrons.

I feel like if you say kids of a certain age can't be allowed in opposite-sex bathrooms because they might check out patrons, it's not such a huge leap to say gay/bi people can't be in the change rooms either in case they make other patrons uncomfortable because they might check them out too.

question- from what age on SHOULD kids be restricted coming to opposite gender locker rooms, then?

i think it's a huge difference between the kid being in there and bi/gay people being in there. jsut because bi/gay people will likely not develop issues from seeing same sex naked people around them.

[JenniferJuniper]

Wait...

Leaving a 5 year old unattended (that was the age you stipulated before, right? and was the age in the post you were responding to with the above) could well get you in serious trouble.

Further it appears there wasn't a rule that says the children aren't allowed.

*maybe* the gym manager says the kid has to go, maybe not.

Why do you keep talking in certainties about things that.. aren't certain at all?

annalea - i think we've moved pretty much into the hypothetical, loosely based on your story.

I didn't stipulate to anything. The boy in this case is described as being 8 or 9.

Why do you keep speaking in vagaries when it's a pretty black and white issue?

Whether there are signs or not, if it's a Woman's Locker Room, the legal implication (in the US) is that only women are allowed in. If the gym turns a blind eye and lets men in, and - hypothetically speaking - there is a sexual assault by a man in that locker room (it's happened before), the perp will be charged criminally and the gym will almost certainly be sued for civil damages for not following it's own rules. So if there are separate locker rooms by sex, the gym's risk manager and/or attorney is going to strongly recommend the rules be enforced.

Clearly very small children - as long as they are by their mother or father's side - are going to be allowed in to either setting. The question is the cut-off age and most changing rooms and locker rooms that do specify an age use 5 or 6 max (school age) as the top end for opposite sex visits. Which is reasonable. If an age is not specified, however, one can assume that a reasonable standard cut-off should be school age. Beyond that, where would anyone draw the line - 8? 10? 14?

Frankly, I don't think kids belong in adult locker rooms for a variety of reasons. Most adults come to the gym in part to reduce stress and having a passel of howlers underfoot while you are going about your business isn't always pleasant. And from the gym's standpoint, wet floors from showers present additional liability exposures for children who may be running around.

Bottom line, there are usually alternatives, provided parents aren't putting their own wants and needs ahead of those of both their children and their fellow gym-goers.

[annalena]

I think school age is reasonable. And as stated before, the boy was AT LEAST 8 or 9.

Where's the line? 6? 9? 12? 15?

I don't have an issue with kids being at the gym. Shall they go to their play area or whatever. May they even sit and draw or play on the machines, as long it's not dangerous, if someone has a last minute babysitter issue or something. But gerenally, it's just not a kid environment. This particular one does not have a play room or something. (Wait. Does play room imply something else than kids? Not sure about the wording). So basically, bottom line, do not schlep your kids to the gym.

[Guest LilaFowler]

If I see a little boy past 4 or 5 or so in a womens locker room, I'm definitely going to complain to the gym staff.

The mom, even a single mom, has several other options than bringing an older boy into the locker room.

1. Leave him at home with a babysitter or family member.

2. Work out at home instead of going to a gym.

3. Leave the gym in your workout clothes and shower and change at home.

[annalena]

Maybe I should point out my main concern: That he felt uncomfortable in there, but his mother just brought him there and dropped him there without asking him what he though about it.

[1004srs]

I know. Offer to watch her kid while she changes, if you are so inscensed about a child being in the chainging room. SOlves everyone problems and shows the Mom some compassion.

My kids come to the gym with me. I am a single Mom who doesn't have a lot of options for childcare. Suck it up.

[emmiedahl]

The only gym I have ever went to with my kids is the YMCA. If my older son (16) is with us, my 7 yr old goes in the men's locker room with him to change after swimming. My changing is not even the issue. But if my older son is not with me, the 7 yo goes in the women's locker room and changes with his back to the girls. It is so common that there are a lot of boys in there after a swim session. It's not legal to leave a child under 10 unattended in my area because safety experts don't think they are capable of handling any situation that might occur.

Outside of legalities, some really sketchy people use the Y and there is no way I am sending my son in alone to a locker room where there could be a gang member or a pedophile. I think parents should try their best to respect others, but if there is no option but to take the boy in the locker room with you, others should be gracious. Safety and supervision of children comes before cultural sensibilities.

[Guest Anonymous]

My 7 yo still goes in the women's bathroom/changing room/locker room with me. He does not stare, he just does his thing. In locker rooms, I ask him to sit on a bench facing a wall or lockers, with his back to the ladies.

He is too young to be without supervision from a parent or parent substitute. Period. And I will not put him in danger just to avoid offending someone. I know there is only a mild risk, but I protect my children from any unnecessary risks to their safety. Very few babies electrocute themselves, but I put plastic thingies in my outlets. Because why not? If I can keep them safe with only a mild inconvenience, why not? I don't like people seeing me undressed, but I would run down the street naked in January if it kept someone else's child just a little safer.

Just saying that I heartily agree with this! The safety of a child is ALWAYS more important than whether it makes someone else feel uncomfortable or not. I always took my son with me into the ladie's restroom, locker room, store changing rooms until he was at least 8-9 and even when he was 10 I wouldn't hesitate to barge right into a men's restroom to make sure it was completely empty before allowing him to use it. It's pretty easy to say that your child is more likely to be harmed by someone they know – but try telling that to the mom whose child is raped or murdered by a stranger in a restroom, locker room or some other place they assumed was safe; I doubt your words or statistics would be very comforting to her.

[annalena]

The only gym I have ever went to with my kids is the YMCA. If my older son (16) is with us, my 7 yr old goes in the men's locker room with him to change after swimming. My changing is not even the issue. But if my older son is not with me, the 7 yo goes in the women's locker room and changes with his back to the girls. It is so common that there are a lot of boys in there after a swim session. It's not legal to leave a child under 10 unattended in my area because safety experts don't think they are capable of handling any situation that might occur.

Outside of legalities, some really sketchy people use the Y and there is no way I am sending my son in alone to a locker room where there could be a gang member or a pedophile. I think parents should try their best to respect others, but if there is no option but to take the boy in the locker room with you, others should be gracious. Safety and supervision of children comes before cultural sensibilities.

Given the stats, unfortunately I think in every locker room with say, 30 people changing, there's at least one pedo. Goes for males and females.

[changemanagement]

Har.

The Y I attend has a family locker room. At any given time you will babies, toddlers, school age kids, teenagers, parents, people with disabilities (obvious or otherwise), random adults and seniors - all sexes in there changing, showering, using the bathroom, sitting and waiting. This list inculdes lifeguards and intructors. Apparently none of of us are fazed.

[Jessica]

Aaaaaand that's why you put your swimsuit on under your clothes and then when you're finished swimming, just change into your regular undies and clothes in the bathroom stall. Then you don't have to worry about scarring little boys or have them stare at you. Easy peasy. No drama.

[Bookworm89]

Waaaay too old. I would have asked his mother to remove him or notified the staff. I know it's tough when an opposite sex parent has to take a young child into a restroom, but there's no excuse for bringing a boy that age into a women's locker room. Uncomfortable for the women, and fetish-inducing for the young man later in life!

Just figured I would put my 2 cents in, but from reading this it sounds to me like the mom is using the gym and left the boy alone in the women's changing room. If that's the case, I don't think that is right, the boy can be outside the room practicing guitar. If the mom was using the changing room and just needed him in their for that short period of time I would be okay with that, uncomfortable yes, but I would make do because maybe the mom has no other choice. But I am not really this situation like that.

[Vex]

It is a big difference, but I'm just concerned it could be precedence setting. It's highly unlikely, but it's still something that makes me uncomfortable.

I have no idea what age they should be restricted to, because I do not have a problem with it. That's why I suggested the gyms decide for themselves if they want kids in there and either say it's okay, or say it's not. Most gyms I've visited have had a seperate bathroom for mothers to change babies and nurse their kids. There could always be toilets in there where mothers can comfortably bring their children at any age, or they could take them to the creche bathrooms. In the gym I go to, that's what most parents seem to do, anyway - they use the bathroom in the actual day care to change and bring their kids with them.

[StarrieEyedKat]

Just figured I would put my 2 cents in, but from reading this it sounds to me like the mom is using the gym and left the boy alone in the women's changing room. If that's the case, I don't think that is right, the boy can be outside the room practicing guitar. If the mom was using the changing room and just needed him in their for that short period of time I would be okay with that, uncomfortable yes, but I would make do because maybe the mom has no other choice. But I am not really this situation like that.

Pretty much this. If mom is in the locker room changing and wants 8 year old boy in there with her to keep an eye on him, that's pretty reasonable and I'd be fine with it. If the boy was just left in the women's locker room or left to his own amusement and he randomly decided to go in the locker room to play guitar while mom's out exercising? That's a completely different story and really not ok.

[annalena]

Just figured I would put my 2 cents in, but from reading this it sounds to me like the mom is using the gym and left the boy alone in the women's changing room. If that's the case, I don't think that is right, the boy can be outside the room practicing guitar. If the mom was using the changing room and just needed him in their for that short period of time I would be okay with that, uncomfortable yes, but I would make do because maybe the mom has no other choice. But I am not really this situation like that.

OK so maybe my thesis wise messed up brain did not point that out clearly enough.

Mom was nowhere in sight, boy was in there practicing guitar.

So, she didn't even have an eye on him, couldn't have been for safety regards.

[annalena]

It is a big difference, but I'm just concerned it could be precedence setting. It's highly unlikely, but it's still something that makes me uncomfortable.

I have no idea what age they should be restricted to, because I do not have a problem with it. That's why I suggested the gyms decide for themselves if they want kids in there and either say it's okay, or say it's not. Most gyms I've visited have had a seperate bathroom for mothers to change babies and nurse their kids. There could always be toilets in there where mothers can comfortably bring their children at any age, or they could take them to the creche bathrooms. In the gym I go to, that's what most parents seem to do, anyway - they use the bathroom in the actual day care to change and bring their kids with them.

Babies and nursing I'd have no issue with at all....