KnightInShiningAmore - how did it end?

[FlorenceHamilton]

So, in a convoluted way, it is good to have plants lurking around here. It means we are important enough to monitor and the door swings both ways. In the end, we are really about raising awareness. Another piece of evidence that FJ is awesome!

[emmiedahl]

Hane, I think a good approach to future fundies who are obviously trying to sell their lifestyle would be to ask them what is in it for us. That is a relevant question, and one that they can almost never answer.

"I am a 30-something Jewish mom with 5 well-behaved kids and a happy marriage. I work part-time and go to college. How can patriarchy improve my life?"

The fact is, patriarchy does not improve lives or make people happier. If you can have a happy marriage and well-behaved children *with* it, you could easily have had the same *without* it.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

To me a lot of it comes off as "well, having a dictator would be GREAT if only I could guarantee that my dictator will be benevolent, and he'll only demand that I submit to him telling me to do exactly what I secretly wanted to do anyway."

You can see another side of this in some fundie blogs where it's clear that the WOMAN has bought into the whole gauzy warm image of perfect family life, and so she has decided to utterly submit to her "headship" (and sometimes the husband is very in on it too, he's 100% fine with that) but then it turns out that what he wants her to do is get a job to help pad the family ledger, send the kids to Christian school (i.e. not homeschool!) and wear pants. Oh, the cognitive dissonance. I mean, I'm supposed to submit, but isn't that supposed to lead to the perfect images I see in the Vision Forum catalogs and lots of Victoriana? But he wants me modern. Oh no...

(And that's before we even get near any abuse situations.)

[changemanagement]

I don't understand how the infiltrating fundies think they can change the collective mind. What happens without fail is, it pisses everyone off. We've gravitated here for a reason and there is absolutely no compelling reason or circumstance that would make me condsider a fundie way of life.

Using the bible as a reference for argument doesn't work because I see the bible in a different light from these people. Hell, I'm not even familiar with their Jesus. The Jesus I grew up with is accepting and benevolent.

PS I must always log in now so I don't see the bullshit from the "foe".

[Brainsample]

There's not doubt in my mind that it still goes on today - we ran into it a lot with the more extremist right wing and racist groups, but a friend of mine says they also infiltrate a lot of the animal rights groups, things like Occupy wall street, and any anti-racist, socialist, or peace groups that they see as a threat (including people like "Food Not Bombs" which is a pretty awesome anti-hunger group, but seen as a threat because they are politically active and tend to have members involved in other left-wing causes).

Stacy McDonald sent a couple of people over to the now defunct True Womanhood when I posted over there years ago. One was to be a fly in the ointment, and another wanted to be a spy. What the heck did she think that she would find out? There were no private messages flying around. Her identity became known, partly because her comments were so weird, and she lied six ways from Sunday about all kinds of stuff. She accomplished absolutely nothing. Actually, it created much more difficulty for Stacy in the long run, not that she didn't retaliate for her pains.

What would Knight be here to do exactly?

Solicit info via PMs and give misinformation? I don't know if I even accept some of the personal stuff that he said. That's part of why I wanted to see him post one of those PMs he sent to me online, claiming that he took to heart what I'd written. (I don't know that he's posted here since, actually.) It's the internet, we don't know who people are. You can say just about anything with little to any restraint or accountability.

What would be the primary point? They might find out in advance about the Mother Jones article we wrote which is slated for publication next month featuring a photo of Peter Bradrick in drag? Ha!

[Brainsample]

To me a lot of it comes off as "well, having a dictator would be GREAT if only I could guarantee that my dictator will be benevolent, and he'll only demand that I submit to him telling me to do exactly what I secretly wanted to do anyway."

You can see another side of this in some fundie blogs where it's clear that the WOMAN has bought into the whole gauzy warm image of perfect family life, and so she has decided to utterly submit to her "headship" (and sometimes the husband is very in on it too, he's 100% fine with that) but then it turns out that what he wants her to do is get a job to help pad the family ledger, send the kids to Christian school (i.e. not homeschool!) and wear pants. Oh, the cognitive dissonance. I mean, I'm supposed to submit, but isn't that supposed to lead to the perfect images I see in the Vision Forum catalogs and lots of Victoriana? But he wants me modern. Oh no...

(And that's before we even get near any abuse situations.)

[Shirley MacLaine]

I just very much dislike this Knight person. Belief system aside, can't get down with, like, his whole manner. Not inclined to cut him slack for being young.

[emmiedahl]

I think it is interesting and encouraging that FJ might be a serious enough force to warrant fundie attention and strategery (lol).

Some of the recent posts from random fundies seem like attempts to call us out (thatonegirl, AKDA, nerd22) in the only way that they know how. I actually like it when those people come on here, because a lot of lurkers have the same questions and then see the answers.

KISA was a little more sneaky. He was willing to offer gossip (did you notice that all of it was really obvious stuff that confirms our ISB notions) as a means of getting on our good side. But that is all I can really understand. Surely he did not think he could infiltrate and steer the community in another direction? So what was his purpose? I think he *had* a purpose, I just can't really wrap my mind around what it was.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect he was VF approved. He knows that they read here and that they would come down like a nuke on anyone who interacts with us in a non-approved manner. He had to have some approval beforehand, he is not stupid enough to risk his place in the community for a few minutes of gossip with the enemy.

[JesusFightClub]

MJB, lol! I had not even thought about statism/State! Incoherence, it is me.

Raine, you are my, if not evil any more, naughty twin. ;) I know some things about Cointelpro and also infiltration. It is an interesting topic, but unfortunately with a real world application.

I have to admit I do not get "be nice to fundies" because it does sound to me like "be nice to State" . I have seen State show up in movements, as well as being interviewed by them. They are just as nice as pie. But the tactics are the same.

*sad face* "Why won't you trust me? Haven't I proved myself?" is a key one. Honestly, trusting that fundies came around here with a genuine desire to learn more is daft. They know fine well who and what we are. They are here for a reason and not a good one.

When you are interviewed by coppers they say things to you like "Why would you be untruthful to me? I'm on your side." And "I totally agree[ X abuse] is horrible. You're completely right there!"

They do that like the cutesy fundies who show up do that. Nothing is useful to you. It is useful to them.

I am so inarticulate :( but that is what I mean.

[sea_gale]

To me a lot of it comes off as "well, having a dictator would be GREAT if only I could guarantee that my dictator will be benevolent, and he'll only demand that I submit to him telling me to do exactly what I secretly wanted to do anyway."

You can see another side of this in some fundie blogs where it's clear that the WOMAN has bought into the whole gauzy warm image of perfect family life, and so she has decided to utterly submit to her "headship" (and sometimes the husband is very in on it too, he's 100% fine with that) but then it turns out that what he wants her to do is get a job to help pad the family ledger, send the kids to Christian school (i.e. not homeschool!) and wear pants. Oh, the cognitive dissonance. I mean, I'm supposed to submit, but isn't that supposed to lead to the perfect images I see in the Vision Forum catalogs and lots of Victoriana? But he wants me modern. Oh no...

(And that's before we even get near any abuse situations.)

It's both sad and funny to see the ones who are SUBMITTING SO DAMN HARD when their headship isn't into it. It happens quite often with the wannabe SAHDs, submitting to daddy except when it suits them

[emmiedahl]

I have to admit I do not get "be nice to fundies" because it does sound to me like "be nice to State" . I have seen State show up in movements, as well as being interviewed by them. They are just as nice as pie. But the tactics are the same.

I think the fundies who come here are not always perpetrators of the movement, but Stockholm-syndrome suffering victims. I am usually nice at first, because I assume that they are brainwashed products of bad ideology. KISA certainly could be called 'State', but some of our rug-crappers are not necessarily the people who make the decisions.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I mean, I'm supposed to submit, but isn't that supposed to lead to the perfect images I see in the Vision Forum catalogs and lots of Victoriana? But he wants me modern. Oh no...

Heh! Yeah. If my headship had his way I'd have a shaved head.

[MamaJunebug]

This may have nothing to it, but last week I noticed that Jordan Niednagel has begun to welcome friends "and lurkers" to his blog; he even signed off his recent blogpost with another greeting to friends "and lurkers."

I'm pretty sure this is new. A reaction of sorts to Knight? I can't recall if Knight commented on Jordan (or if that was Dom Wack Troll, blessed be his/her name!) but in any case, I'm sure the people we talk about read us and talk about us somewhere we don't see 'em doing so. it's the internet, as somebody noted.

I'm showing my age (I've never lied about it) when i say that the telecom people unwittingly had it right, way back when: Communication IS the beginning of understanding. Whether that understanding developes into a change of heart and belief remains to be seen. The worst thing we could do is stop talking about things that we see as problems. The second-worse would be to stop talking to people who adhere to those same things.

JMH, old-hippie opinion.

[Brainsample]

This may have nothing to it, but last week I noticed that Jordan Niednagel has begun to welcome friends "and lurkers" to his blog;

Who is Jordan?

[Hane]

Hane, I think a good approach to future fundies who are obviously trying to sell their lifestyle would be to ask them what is in it for us. That is a relevant question, and one that they can almost never answer.

"I am a 30-something Jewish mom with 5 well-behaved kids and a happy marriage. I work part-time and go to college. How can patriarchy improve my life?"

The fact is, patriarchy does not improve lives or make people happier. If you can have a happy marriage and well-behaved children *with* it, you could easily have had the same *without* it.

See, in your case, they might say you're deluded--I mean, wouldn't it be so much EASIER if your husband "stepped up to the plate" 100% and you didn't "have" to go to work and college? But you KNOW you and your family are well-adjusted and happy, and nothing you could say would convince a fundie otherwise.

So, yeah--they'll never be able to persuade open-minded, autonomous women to come over to their side.

[Brainsample]

I'm pretty sure this is new. A reaction of sorts to Knight? I can't recall if Knight commented on Jordan (or if that was Dom Wack Troll, blessed be his/her name!) but in any case, I'm sure the people we talk about read us and talk about us somewhere we don't see 'em doing so. it's the internet, as somebody noted.

That choleric person, God's Janitor, didn't come here because of Knight but rather came here do defend her friend "Mike" (Pearl).

Did that woman who defended Lady Lydia ever pop back in to chat, the one who said that the latest Lydia was not all that bad?

[JesusFightClub]

I think the fundies who come here are not always perpetrators of the movement, but Stockholm-syndrome suffering victims. I am usually nice at first, because I assume that they are brainwashed products of bad ideology. KISA certainly could be called 'State', but some of our rug-crappers are not necessarily the people who make the decisions.

TBH emmiedahl, you have my admiration.

I can't and won't talk to fundies. Totally happy to talk to exfundies. But not someone in the movement or someone who wants to join. This is seriously not good. I cannot be polite or nice to someone like that.

It is brilliant if good people warn them and help them out. You are doing a great thing :)