Attacks on Israel

[BensAllergies]

I thought this article from the BBC was balanced examining the evidence of the hospital blast so far. I do not believe we can say conclusively who was to blame or whether it was accidental or targeted, but the evidence they presented changed my mind on who likely was the original source.

Yesterday I was wondering how the fatality count was so high if the explosion occurred in the parking lot. The article clears that up a little, because one source told the BBC that 1,000 displaced persons were residing in the courtyard when the explosions hit. However, even with that information I don’t think we have a conclusive answer yet on how many died.

Either way I hope it is fully investigated. I feel terrible for the innocents caught in the crossfire between these opposing entities.

Spoiler

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061

 

[meep]

@BensAllergies Super informative, that is a quality piece! (Also, hilarious username, I appreciate it.) It is NOT CERTAIN yet (if ever) what caused the blast but a lot of unbiased data pointing towards Hamas imo. Also, I think U.S. President Biden is doing a wonderful job so far in delicately handling this situation, between the line of condemning civilian causalities on all sides, but still standing as a firm ally to Israel. This is...not easy... 

CNN: (selected) [latest to earliest]

• Video shows rocket fired from Gaza exploding above Gaza City before explosion at hospital
• Biden says he was "very blunt" during meeting with Israeli leaders
• Biden says Egypt's Sisi agreed to allow 20 trucks of humanitarian aid through Rafah crossing
• Hezbollah says it conducted 6 attacks Wednesday on Israeli military posts along the Lebanese border
• $100 million in humanitarian aid to Gaza and West Bank will come from pre-approved funding, White House says
• US Senate intelligence committee "confident" hospital blast caused by failed rocket launch, not Israeli strike
• European Union asks social media platforms to prepare for risk of "live-streaming executions" by Hamas
• Jordan's foreign minister reiterates firm stance against Palestinian population transfer to Jordan
• Displaced people in Gaza lack basic life necessities, says Hamas-run government
• Israel's war with Hamas "will not be short," IDF official says
• US consulate in southern Turkey closes during protests, embassy says
• 9 rockets fired from Lebanon crossed into northern Israel on Wednesday, IDF says 
• Israel sharing "misleading disinformation" about hospital blast, Palestinian National Initiative leader says
• US vetoes UN Security Council resolution for humanitarian pause
• Explosions observed near Rafah crossing on Egypt-Gaza border

BBC summary blurb:

"Here's the latest from Israel and Gaza.

• US President Joe Biden recently left Israel after visiting the country in a show of support - he will make a public address from the White House on Thursday evening
• Egypt's president has agreed to open up the Rafah crossing to allow in up to 20 trucks of aid into Gaza
• British PM Rishi Sunak is on his way to the Middle East and will arrive in Israel on Thursday morning
• Fallout continues from the huge blast that ripped through a crowded area at the Al-Ahli al-Arabi hospital, killing many people. Palestinian health officials say 471 people were killed
• Israel strongly denies any involvement the hospital explosion in Gaza, and President Biden backed their claim, saying it was supported by "data" he had seen from the US defence department
• Israel was immediately blamed by Hamas but the Israel Defense Forces said the blast was caused by a misfired Palestinian militant rocket
• A range of Arab countries joined Hamas in blaming Israel for the explosion, and some Arab leaders cancelled meetings with Biden"

Edited October 18, 2023 by meep

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

This is an intense thread and I know we are not all seeing eye to eye but I hope we can at least continue to have some sort of conversation about the topic. When people shut down and refuse to consider other viewpoints, we become locked into the same thinking that causes all wars, not only this one.

I appreciate having a place to hear both sides and other viewpoints. Even if two of use are more pro-Israel, it doesn't mean we necessarily agree on all or most points or have the same underlying "logic" as to why we think how we do. I'm open to hearing new information and considering new viewpoints. 

Personally, I'm a confused pacificist (what would I *truly* do if push comes to shove? I don't know. I just don't know). I've been vegan for over 20 years. I'm a bleeding heart about many things that other people take for granted. I do try to think about these things and how our actions ripple out. 

I'm trying to stay informed about current events. But I'm also trying to juggle the same propaganda we are all hearing from both sides. Every single country is putting out their own propaganda, their own narrative and trying to control the directions it goes. It's natural and expected. 

 

 

19 hours ago, noseybutt said:

This is where I have so much empathy for the people of Israel. Stopping right wing madness in a democracy is so much harder than I ever dreamed.

I feel this comment in my soul. I was a very optimistic dreamer at one point. The world squashed that down, as it does. And I truly thought that really I had a handle on some of these hard realities. But here I am halfway through life and watching right wing crazy take over everywhere to the point that I was at work the other day and several people all told me that "conspiracy theories are all true" and demanded I pick one and "prove" it wasn't true. and they all said "seee you can't! Ah HA!" as if not being able to dispute unproveable nonsense somehow proves it.  Why is it this hard??? Why have people just totally given up rational thought? I don't understand and I feel very hopeless about it.

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

Whether you are on Israel or Palestinian of Hamas' side - I have to admit I'm surprised Israel hasn't bombed even more or gone on major ground incursion. I thought by now we'd be in the thick of that. 

I'm not sure why they're holding back. I don't want them to go 1000% - to be clear. But they have the capability to do more than what we've seen and seemed willing to go there several days ago. So I'm surprised. Does this mean they're calming down and allies are pressuring them? Or are they just getting really organized/planning something REALLY big? I fear the 2nd choice.  I remain committed to the idea that further escalation benefits no one. I don't believe you can "defeat" this type of enemy.

I also continue to be very confused that some sort of humanitarian action isn't taking place. The news keeps talking about the lack of but there's no real explanation as to what would need to happen to get aid moving. 

[meep]

1 minute ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

Whether you are on Israel or Palestinian of Hamas' side - I have to admit I'm surprised Israel hasn't bombed even more or gone on major ground incursion. I thought by now we'd be in the thick of that. 

I'm not sure why they're holding back. I don't want them to go 1000% - to be clear. But they have the capability to do more than what we've seen and seemed willing to go there several days ago. So I'm surprised. Does this mean they're calming down and allies are pressuring them? Or are they just getting really organized/planning something REALLY big? I fear the 2nd choice.  I remain committed to the idea that further escalation benefits no one. I don't believe you can "defeat" this type of enemy.

I also continue to be very confused that some sort of humanitarian action isn't taking place. The news keeps talking about the lack of but there's no real explanation as to what would need to happen to get aid moving. 

It has appeared in U.S. news, that the IDF has said (I think yesterday?) they are prepping for a long haul battle. Personally it feels they are not in a rush. Hopefully it means they will truly be able to push out Hamas. 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

8 minutes ago, meep said:

It has appeared in U.S. news, that the IDF has said (I think yesterday?) they are prepping for a long haul battle. Personally it feels they are not in a rush. Hopefully it means they will truly be able to push out Hamas. 

I wonder how long they can keep that many reservists deployed? It's a huge strain on all types of resources. 

If they kill off all of hamas' leaders, people have said the result is likely to be younger and more radical  leadership. There doesn't seem to be any end game.

[meep]

1 minute ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

I wonder how long they can keep that many reservists deployed? It's a huge strain on all types of resources. 

If they kill off all of hamas' leaders, people have said the result is likely to be younger and more radical  leadership. There doesn't seem to be any end game.

I hope part of what is taking so long is coming up with a long term plan to help stabilize Gaza, not just going in guns blazing and then leaving promptly, which as you said wouldn't do anything. But I guess time will tell! All we can do is hope and keep informed. 💜

[Antimony]

18 minutes ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

I also continue to be very confused that some sort of humanitarian action isn't taking place. The news keeps talking about the lack of but there's no real explanation as to what would need to happen to get aid moving. 

There's been an explanation, and as of today, Egypt has agreed to open Rafah crossing due to US intervention. Egypt wanted assurance from Israel that the crossing would not be subject to airstrikes, because if they open the crossing they have to send in Egyptian truckers to deliver aid. Shelling has hit Rafah as late as Monday (10/16) and they don't want that. It's also hard to control a border under the circumstances and Egypt doesn't want to have responsibility for 2 million potentially permanently displaced refugees. If they started screening for non-Gazans, it'll be chaos, because who has papers in such a situation? Certainly not everyone. There are trucks of unidentified bodies. It's going to be a papers nightmare.

Egypt also has beef with Hamas because Hamas is aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood, which Egypt is opposed to. 

Edit: There was footage, unfortunately on TikTok, the hardest source on fucking earth to cite because of their format, of Egyptian truckers waiting outside the crossing demanding that they should be allowed to bring food and water into the Gaza strip. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Antimony

[noseybutt]

26 minutes ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

Whether you are on Israel or Palestinian of Hamas' side - I have to admit I'm surprised Israel hasn't bombed even more or gone on major ground incursion. I thought by now we'd be in the thick of that. 

I'm not sure why they're holding back. I don't want them to go 1000% - to be clear. But they have the capability to do more than what we've seen and seemed willing to go there several days ago. So I'm surprised. Does this mean they're calming down and allies are pressuring them? Or are they just getting really organized/planning something REALLY big? I fear the 2nd choice.  I remain committed to the idea that further escalation benefits no one. I don't believe you can "defeat" this type of enemy.

I also continue to be very confused that some sort of humanitarian action isn't taking place. The news keeps talking about the lack of but there's no real explanation as to what would need to happen to get aid moving. 

I have read several think pieces that suggest Israel didn't really have a plan for Gaza because they never expected it to get to this point. They expected incursions and possible war from other sources---but not Gaza. I went back and looked at reporting on Israel, Jerusalem, Gaza, and West Bank for 2023 (including Jerusalem Post), and there is more of a focus on Jerusalem "boiling over" than there is on Gaza.

I also listened to a very interesting interview by a Middle Eastern expert who said the same about Hamas: that they never really expected to be as "successful" as they were and thus didn't really plan an end game.

Who knows.

But I take Israel pausing to be a good sign. They well know that any sort of invasion is going to result in horrific loss of civilian life and there needs to be a careful weighing of next steps. Also, any pause gives possible openings for political maneuvering. This really needs a political solution but any solution seems far fetched at the moment.

[meep]

CNN: [selected, emphasis mine, latest to earliest]

• Around 700 people requested to be evacuated from Gaza to Turkey, Turkish Foreign Ministry says
• Rafah crossing not expected to open Friday for vital Gaza aid, sources tell CNN
• 1 person dead near Israel-Lebanon border after "significant exchange of fire," UNIFIL says
• At least 18 Ukrainians killed in Hamas attack on Israel, embassy says
• Israeli airstrike in central Gaza kills at least 10 people, according to hospital officials
• At least 21 journalists have been killed during the Israel-Hamas war, Committee to Protect Journalists says
• UN warns of "increasingly dire conditions" in Gaza amid electricity blackout and shortages of food and water
• Egypt calls for nationwide protests in support of Palestine
• US Senate passes bipartisan resolution affirming support for Israel
• 32 Americans have died in Israel, US State Department spokesperson says
• Israeli defense minister says troops near Gaza will "soon see it from the inside"
• UN chief makes urgent appeal for humanitarian ceasefire in Middle East
• Preliminary US intelligence suggests between 100 and 300 likely dead in Gaza hospital blast
• 9 British nationals have been killed and 7 missing after Hamas attack on Israel, UK says
• Rafah crossing preparing to open for aid delivery Friday morning, Egyptian security officials say
• US State Department advises all Americans overseas "to exercise increased caution" in rare worldwide alert
• The US State Department issued a rare, worldwide caution alert Thursday to advise all US citizens abroad "to exercise increased caution," citing "increased tensions in various locations around the world, the potential for terrorist attacks, demonstrations or violent actions against US citizens and interests."
   
  • "The alert comes as protests have erupted throughout the Middle East in response to the Israel-Hamas war, with many demonstrators targeting US diplomatic compounds. 
    
    The State Department has raised the travel advisory for Lebanon and Israel to the highest level and has authorized non-emergency US government personnel and family members to depart.
    
    The State Department last issued this kind of alert in August 2022 in the wake of the killing of al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri, warning that “supporters of al-Qa’ida, or its affiliated terrorist organizations, may seek to attack US facilities, personnel, or citizens.” "
     
• Countries issue travel advisory on Lebanon
• Kidnapped 80-year-old Israeli-American and her teenage granddaughter found dead, family says
• 7 Palestinians killed in West Bank refugee camp, Palestinian health ministry says
• Medical aid is "ready to go" at Gaza crossing, WHO chief says
• US citizen and his family stranded in Gaza say they feel "abandoned to fight on our own for our safety"

 

BBC Summary Blurb:

"Just joining us or need a recap? Here's a round-up of the key developments today:

In and around Gaza:

• More than 100 trucks carrying vital supplies of food, water and medicines are waiting at the border between Egypt and Gaza
• Yesterday the US brokered a deal to let 20 trucks enter, but it's not clear when this will happen
• Aid workers have said this is nowhere near enough to help the more than a million displaced people
• The UN chief has called for "rapid" access for aid to be distributed, with water, food, fuel and medical supplies running out
• Israel has continued to bomb what it says are Hamas targets in Gaza
• Its defence minister has told troops gathered near Gaza to "be ready", ahead of an expected ground offensive

Sunak's diplomatic trip:

• Earlier, the UK PM met with his Israeli counterpart Benjamin Netanyahu, pledging the UK's support in a joint statement
• Rishi Sunak has now arrived in Saudi Arabia for talks with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, saying "we will work together to ensure regional stability"

Hamas attack on Israel:

• British-Israeli man, Yonatan Rapoport, and also a grandmother and her 12-year-old granddaughter were confirmed killed by Hamas in the attacks on 7 October.

Violence in the West Bank:

• The Palestinian ministry of health says six people have been killed in clashes with the Israeli military in Nur Shams refugee in the occupied West Bank - the military says it used an aircraft to strike a "terrorist squad""

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

It's strange that there was a headline earlier of two hostages "found dead" and now it's buried. Why?

this world wide alert for americans...I dont recall such a thing before.

Egypt supports demonstrations but wont let aid in/ people out? 

Why is Israel bombing the south after telling everybody to go there?

I feel like the reporting overall is scant. I suppose this is because of the decreasing funding over the years for reporters. 

 

[noseybutt]

3 hours ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

It's strange that there was a headline earlier of two hostages "found dead" and now it's buried. Why?

this world wide alert for americans...I dont recall such a thing before.

Egypt supports demonstrations but wont let aid in/ people out? 

Why is Israel bombing the south after telling everybody to go there?

I feel like the reporting overall is scant. I suppose this is because of the decreasing funding over the years for reporters. 

 

Yes, there have been warnings before. I am not 100% sure that it was worldwide, but definitely in many different regions during the Iran hostage crisis, the 1986 bombing of Libya by Reagan, etc

(I am American but spent much of my childhood overseas.)

[Jinder Roles]

I don't think they're pausing?  It seems from their own media reps and politicians that they are ramping up for a ground invasion. As for hostages, yesterday the Economic Minister  told ABC News Chicago that hostage retrieval is not their top priority. Kind of shocked that they said that publicly. He also vaguely alluded to ground troops. 

IMO, Joe and his admin are doing a horrible job but honestly the US is Israel's closest ally and the standard for politicians for decades has been unequivocal support for Israel (thanks evangelicals). I'm especially disappointed (but not surprised) at the U.S.  vetoing the U.N. Security Council's resolution for a temporary ceasefire for humanitarian aid purposes. And a couple days ago the U.S. (as well as France, UK & Japan) had killed another U.N. resolution for a ceasefire. However, Biden is set to ask Congress for $14 billion in aid for Israel. This HuffPost article came out today about a dissent cable in the State Department around the administration's handling of this conflict. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/state-department-gaza_n_6531a23ae4b0da897ab75ce4?b7p 

The hospital bombing - as all the bombing -  is truly tragic. I think independent investigation by a trusted 3rd party (like the ICC) is needed to determine what actually happened. From the structure of the hospital and lack of crater, I think a typical IDF rocket is not the case (though not one that explodes above ground) . However, a lot of Israel's evidence is also being disputed. The video of the supposed rocket is way too horizontal in its trajectory to have been launched from the adjacent cemetery as the IDF claims. And the video they released of the Hamas operatives has been dismissed by independent journalists and native Arab speakers as a fake. The syntax, accent and conversation flow are all unnatural and very off.  I watched and excellent breakdown on Channel 4 News. 

I think @Antimony's point cannot be overstated. Nobody is a civilian. Israel asserts that it does not target civilians but it has killed thousands and displaced even more these past two weeks. I've seen collective punishment and other abominable acts be minimized and justified under the guise of "eradicating terrorists" and "right to self-defense". And this is mainly happening to an already vulnerable population. Palestinians do not have what Israelis have; right to self-determination, a powerful government to protect them, resources & infrastructure needed to live, basic humanization. 

And this will not begin and end with Gaza. Already in the West Bank 76 Palestinians have been killed by soldiers and settlers. I believe that Occupied West Bank is on lockdown. 

I've seen many protests in solidarity with Palestinian people all over the world this week. Jewish Voice for Peace was protesting in the Capitol, huge protests in France, Spain, Greece, South Africa etc. Hoping that the sheer volume of people speaking out will do something. IMO the political solution is an end to the blockade and occupation. 

Naturally, events are happening as I'm editing this and am now seeing reports of the bombing of the St. Porphyrius Church in Gaza. It was falsely reported to have been bombed a week ago but this is confirmed by Al Jazeera, WaPo, ABC, Reuters and an associated Orthodox order that is in direct contact with the church. Appears very likely to be an IDF strike. Their  statement says a church wall was damaged while targeting a Hamas control center. They are "reviewing" (ugh).

About 500 displaced people were sheltering at this church, at least 16 confirmed dead but likely to rise. I had to dig for this news as I happened to see a friend post about it and did some research. Nothing on social media feed is mentioning any of this. Apart from Al Jazeera, it's being reported in passive voice. 

Oh and apparently the Israeli government just approved regulations to allow for temporary shutdown of foreign news channels under grounds of "national security". And the Comms Minister has been trying to shut down the Al Jazeera bureau. Want to laugh but it's actually not funny. 

[noseybutt]

23 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

I don't think they're pausing?  It seems from their own media reps and politicians that they are ramping up for a ground invasion. As for hostages, yesterday the Economic Minister  told ABC News Chicago that hostage retrieval is not their top priority. Kind of shocked that they said that publicly. He also vaguely alluded to ground troops. 

IMO, Joe and his admin are doing a horrible job but honestly the US is Israel's closest ally and the standard for politicians for decades has been unequivocal support for Israel (thanks evangelicals). I'm especially disappointed (but not surprised) at the U.S.  vetoing the U.N. Security Council's resolution for a temporary ceasefire for humanitarian aid purposes. And a couple days ago the U.S. (as well as France, UK & Japan) had killed another U.N. resolution for a ceasefire. However, Biden is set to ask Congress for $14 billion in aid for Israel. This HuffPost article came out today about a dissent cable in the State Department around the administration's handling of this conflict. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/state-department-gaza_n_6531a23ae4b0da897ab75ce4?b7p 

The hospital bombing - as all the bombing -  is truly tragic. I think independent investigation by a trusted 3rd party (like the ICC) is needed to determine what actually happened. From the structure of the hospital and lack of crater, I think a typical IDF rocket is not the case (though not one that explodes above ground) . However, a lot of Israel's evidence is also being disputed. The video of the supposed rocket is way too horizontal in its trajectory to have been launched from the adjacent cemetery as the IDF claims. And the video they released of the Hamas operatives has been dismissed by independent journalists and native Arab speakers as a fake. The syntax, accent and conversation flow are all unnatural and very off.  I watched and excellent breakdown on Channel 4 News. 

I think @Antimony's point cannot be overstated. Nobody is a civilian. Israel asserts that it does not target civilians but it has killed thousands and displaced even more these past two weeks. I've seen collective punishment and other abominable acts be minimized and justified under the guise of "eradicating terrorists" and "right to self-defense". And this is mainly happening to an already vulnerable population. Palestinians do not have what Israelis have; right to self-determination, a powerful government to protect them, resources & infrastructure needed to live, basic humanization. 

And this will not begin and end with Gaza. Already in the West Bank 76 Palestinians have been killed by soldiers and settlers. I believe that Occupied West Bank is on lockdown. 

I've seen many protests in solidarity with Palestinian people all over the world this week. Jewish Voice for Peace was protesting in the Capitol, huge protests in France, Spain, Greece, South Africa etc. Hoping that the sheer volume of people speaking out will do something. IMO the political solution is an end to the blockade and occupation. 

Naturally, events are happening as I'm editing this and am now seeing reports of the bombing of the St. Porphyrius Church in Gaza. It was falsely reported to have been bombed a week ago but this is confirmed by Al Jazeera, WaPo, ABC, Reuters and an associated Orthodox order that is in direct contact with the church. Appears very likely to be an IDF strike. Their  statement says a church wall was damaged while targeting a Hamas control center. They are "reviewing" (ugh).

About 500 displaced people were sheltering at this church, at least 16 confirmed dead but likely to rise. I had to dig for this news as I happened to see a friend post about it and did some research. Nothing on social media feed is mentioning any of this. Apart from Al Jazeera, it's being reported in passive voice. 

Oh and apparently the Israeli government just approved regulations to allow for temporary shutdown of foreign news channels under grounds of "national security". And the Comms Minister has been trying to shut down the Al Jazeera bureau. Want to laugh but it's actually not funny. 

I agree coverage of this is wonky. Several outlets will report similar stories and then retract. It's an unusual level of chaos.

Hasn't there long been disquiet with Al Jazeera since they are funded by Qatar? I struggle to understand who that is different from, say, BBC or PBS. (Or Fox, which doesn't have government support but definitely questionable private funding.) I was a debate judge at a high school debate tournament approximately five years ago and there was a spirited discussion among judges as to whether Al Jazeera was an acceptable source. I argued at the time that it should be accepted, especially since the team using Al Jazeera sources had an impressive array of sources. The kids had wisely taken sources from all over the world and pulled it together for both sides of the argument. Truth is, sometimes Al Jazeera reporting is not all that different from Jerusalem Post. Where they differ is editorial content, obviously, and also which stories are selected for the "front page." One will tell the story of the Israeli dead and the other tells the stories of the Palestinian dead.

Fundamentally though this feels different than other wars in the Middle East because Israel is in an almost impossible situation in terms of spinning the narrative. There is no way to bomb Gaza without killing a high percentage of civilians and children. No matter how they go about it, it reflects poorly. And we are in a cellphone world where all this can be documented in real time.

[noseybutt]

Some insight as to what the Saudis are thinking: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67177684

[fraurosena]

This. This is worth watching-- right to the end. We can all learn from it.

 

[fraurosena]

Another must watch. 

 

[meep]

Sorry for being MIA yesterday! 

CNN selected stories:

• Analysis of images and videos suggests rocket caused Gaza hospital blast, not Israeli airstrike
• Israel's foreign ministry: "Unfortunate" some at Cairo summit "had difficulty condemning terrorism"
• Over 200 foreign nationals have died and 74 are still missing following Hamas attack, Israeli government says
• Israeli military will increase Gaza airstrikes, spokesperson says
• At least 248 people have been killed over the past 24 hours in Gaza, Hamas-run government says
• Aid organizations call for unrestricted access to Gaza after convoy of trucks pass through Rafah crossing
• IDF chief of staff: "We’ll enter the Gaza Strip"
• Biden credits days of high-level diplomacy for delivery of aid to Gaza
• Georgia woman says 14 family members have been killed in Gaza
• Egypt says Israel-Hamas war revealed "shortcoming" in international approach to crises
• Blinken reaffirms US support for Lebanon as tensions in Middle East remain high
• Final joint statement won't be issued following Cairo peace summit due to "differences," officials say
• "Large fire" breaks out in southern Gaza Strip after airstrike, Palestinian Ministry of Interior says
• France and Germany stress that although Israel has a right to self-defense, it must also protect civilians
• US citizen still stranded in Gaza despite several dangerous attempts to reach Egypt
• Up to 100,000 people joined a pro-Palestinian demonstration in London, police estimate

BBC Summary:

"Daniel Hagari, spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), says the Israeli military will "deepen" and "increase" its strikes on Gaza

At a press conference, he told reporters this would allow Israel to "minimise the risks to our forces in the next stages of the war" - and it would happen "from today"

Hagari also repeated a call for residents of Gaza City to move to the south of the region, saying it was for their own safety

The warning comes on the same day aid was allowed into Gaza, from Egypt, for the first time since the Israel-Hamas war erupted

Despite some leaders celebrating the move, the UN called the aid a "drop in the ocean" of what's needed

Meanwhile the father of freed US hostage Natalie Raanan - who was held captive by Hamas for almost two weeks - has spoken to the BBC

He said his daughter, 17, is a "tough girl" and that "it'll take time for her to get back to normal ... but she'll be fine"

It's two weeks since Hamas launched its assault on Israel, killing more than 1,400 people. Palestinian officials say more than 4,000 have been killed in Gaza since then"

[meep]

personally I think Al Jazeera immediately reporting that it was Israel that caused the Gaza hospital blast is incredibly irresponsible reporting. How are people suppose to take them seriously after that?

My originally Israeli friends who live in London are scared. The protests according to them had a lot of blatant anti-jew rhetoric and they no longer feel safe walking on the streets. 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

The news seems very spotty.  

So some aid trucks went into gaza...and they immediately shut the gates. Are those drivers going to get out again? The news stories don't seem to tell any additional info.

Buried in some story I read yesterday was a comment that they're still retrieving Israeli bodies from the original Hamas attack because the area is too close to the border and it's been difficult to get to the area safely.

[TN-peach]

1 hour ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

The news seems very spotty.  

So some aid trucks went into gaza...and they immediately shut the gates. Are those drivers going to get out again? The news stories don't seem to tell any additional info.

Buried in some story I read yesterday was a comment that they're still retrieving Israeli bodies from the original Hamas attack because the area is too close to the border and it's been difficult to get to the area safely.

They are also having a difficult time identifying the remains. Many of them were burned alive with their hands tied together. 
 

Which has been independently verified by foreign press and forensic examiners. They have also verified that some of the bodies have been beheaded but they are unable to verify if that was the cause of death or done postmortem due to the conditions of the remains. Some of the bodies are as young as 3 months. 
 

https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/
 

Spoiler

It is 2 weeks later and Israel is still counting and identifying the dead. They are still trying to determine how many are being held hostage. 
 

The terror attacks on civilians on October 7 occurred during a ceasefire. According to an interrogation tape obtained from the IDF, Hamas instructed the terrorists to basically do whatever they want. 

Spoiler

Hamas killed everyone they found. They didn’t care about age, gender, religion, or nationality. Hamas wants to eliminate Israel “from the river to the sea” and Hamas showed the world on October 7 how they intend on doing that. Israel has every right to defend itself against terrorists. There cannot be ceasefire until Hamas is gone. Hamas will not honor a ceasefire. They didn’t honor this last one. 

[AuntCloud]

There is no "yes, but" when it comes to gunning down music festival goers, burning down families in their homes, kidnapping toddlers and elderly people, unspeakable acts of brutality. None. I hope the innocents in Gaza can finally get the leadership they deserve, rather than murderous psychopaths. But what went down on October 7 was not freedom-fighting, it was Holocaust-level horror, meant to dehumanize, terrorize, and convey a very clear message - you people should not exist. So... we will exist, no matter what. And any "yes, but" means what happened can be justified in some circumstances.

There is a massive uptick in antisemitic incidents all over Europe and North America. I've been living a relatively sheltered existence but I won't lie, it's scary to think who among my neighbours, colleagues, clients, believes it's a-ok that babies were killed to make a point, and that me and my people shouldn't exist. 

If anyone believes this, just come clear. Don't hide behind morals and values and own it. Would you be ok if this was done by any other group, to any other group? There is no justification for October 7. None. The wound that was inflicted on my people will take generations to heal. News sites are biased. Listen to testimonies of first responders and those who volunteered to identify the (burned, brutalized) bodies (many of those of children). And listen to your Israeli and Jewish friends, we are most definitely not ok. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by AuntCloud

[meep]

CNN Summary blurb:

• Hostages released: Israeli citizens Nurit Cooper, 79, and Yocheved Lifshitz, 85, were released from Hamas custody Monday following Qatari and Egyptian mediation, according to two Israeli officials and two other sources briefed on the matter. Hamas also said it released two hostages, according to a statement from a spokesperson. On Friday, Hamas released two American hostages, Judith Tai Raanan and her 17-year-old daughter, Natalie Raanan.
• Aid into Gaza: Twenty trucks carrying humanitarian aid passed the Rafah crossing into Gaza on Monday, according to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). On Saturday and Sunday, a total of 34 trucks were able to enter Gaza, it said. But, relief groups have warned much more is required to curb a deepening humanitarian crisis inside the strip. Aid deliveries entering Gaza have not included fuel, which is critical for things like water desalination and hospitals, OCHA said.
• Dire situation at hospitals: Hospitals are nearing collapse, operating at more than 150% of their capacity, according to the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Health. Situations have become so dire that surgeries are being conducted without anesthesia, and in some cases, under the illumination of phone lights, it said. A British-Palestinian surgeon who traveled to Gaza to help in hospitals has warned that without electricity, the hospital he is in “will just be a mass grave.”
• Israeli strikes: More than 400 people were killed in overnight Israeli strikes on Gaza, the Hamas-controlled Palestinian Health Ministry said. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said the assault hit 320 "terror targets" belonging to Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Israel also said it has killed or captured more than 1,000 members of Hamas, according to Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, a spokesperson for IDF.
• Looming ground operation: Israeli soldiers are taking part in training exercises to improve their "readiness and capabilities for ground operations" in Gaza, the IDF said. Israel has already mobilized troops and military material on the border. Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said the country is preparing for a "multilateral operation" on Hamas from the "air, ground, and sea." The White House declined to say if the Biden administration was urging Israel to delay a possible ground incursion to allow for the release of more hostages held by Hamas and for aid to reach Gaza.
• The scope of the conflict so far: As of Monday, more than 5,000 people have been killed in Gaza, and more than 15,000 have been injured since October 7, the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Health in the occupied West Bank reported. Israeli authorities said Saturday that it believes 210 people are being held hostage in Gaza. A Hamas spokesperson previously said the militant group captured between 200 and 250 people during the attacks.

BBC Summary blurb:

• Israel confirms that two elderly women, Nurit Cooper and Yocheved Lifshitz, have been released by Hamas but their husbands are still being held
• Ms Lifshitz's daughter says she remains focused on securing the release of her father and the other hostages who remain in Gaza
• It brings the total number of hostages released by Hamas to four. Two American-Israelis, mother and daughter Judith and Natalie Raanan, were released on Friday
• In its latest estimate, Israel says that more than 200 hostages are being held by Hamas after its surprise attack on Israel on 7 October
• Earlier, UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said the blast at Gaza's Al Ahli hospital last week was likely caused by a missile fired from within Gaza
• Hamas blamed the incident on an Israeli strike, but Israel said a misfiring Palestinian Islamic Jihad rocket from within Gaza was responsible
• The Hamas-run health ministry said the blast killed 471 people while Israel put the figure at "several dozen"
• More than 1,400 Israelis were killed when Hamas attacked communities near Gaza on 7 October, shooting civilians dead in their homes, in the streets and at a music festival
• Gaza's health ministry says more than 5,000 people have been killed since Israel began bombing the territory in response, flattening entire neighbourhoods

 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

I haven't seen any updates lately on those American and other non-Palestinians who were trying to leave Gaza via Rafah gate. Did they get out? Still waiting?

Any word on whether the truck drivers who have taken aid into Gaza -are they allowed to come back out? The situation with the hospitals in Gaza is so depressing. Israel is losing the moral high ground by maintaining this blockade.

I was very glad to see the 2 elderly ladies released today. They seemed ok. So hopefully more are ok. 

The increase in violent protests and attacks worldwide is absolutely terrifying. You read history and you think how suddenly the previous world wars started, like dominoes. It's hard to not feel the dominoes are all shaking and teetering.

[TuringMachine]

4 hours ago, AuntCloud said:

There is no "yes, but" when it comes to gunning down music festival goers, burning down families in their homes, kidnapping toddlers and elderly people, unspeakable acts of brutality. None. I hope the innocents in Gaza can finally get the leadership they deserve, rather than murderous psychopaths. But what went down on October 7 was not freedom-fighting, it was Holocaust-level horror, meant to dehumanize, terrorize, and convey a very clear message - you people should not exist. So... we will exist, no matter what. And any "yes, but" means what happened can be justified in some circumstances.

There is a massive uptick in antisemitic incidents all over Europe and North America. I've been living a relatively sheltered existence but I won't lie, it's scary to think who among my neighbours, colleagues, clients, believes it's a-ok that babies were killed to make a point, and that me and my people shouldn't exist. 

Seeing all the examples of absolute horror is deeply affecting me. 

It is truly disheartening to see people, even here, push back on every claim the Israeli government makes, yet readily believe any claim made by hamas. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying one should readily believe any claim made by the Israeli government either, but I have to wonder why the same skepticism doesn't seem to be applied to a literal anti semitic terrorist organization.