Attacks on Israel

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, Alaniel said:

Would it not be more appropriate to have two separate threads for this? In view of what the thread title is and the feelings some Jewish posters have expressed up-thread? I'm a bit uncomfortable with the speed and direction of thread-drift we are seeing here, to be honest. 🙁

I realize there are no bad intentions involved from anyone. And I would like to know more about the situation, as well, just as was said above. It just doesn't feel good to discuss this here and now. 🙁

I also think separate thread(s) might be a good idea.

It seems important to discuss this given the potentially far reaching geopolitical fallout. 

Well, even without the fallout.

 

[Jinder Roles]

1 hour ago, meep said:

Thank you, I appreciate this. 

I will say though, again, Israel controls most of Gaza's borders but not all of them. They also share a border with Egypt.

Whether or not they live in an "open air prison" is very much up for debate. 

I also understand some of these logistical specificities on Palestinians in Israel, but this goes back to my lack of clarity on how this is any different than any other country dealing with certain groups of people. 

Palestinians have also flouted U.N. agreements, even in times they were not under Israel control. 

I still just struggle to understand why there seems to be extra pressure on Israel, when most other countries do the exact same things. 

Also, no survivors need to feel like they have to chip in on this particular thread-drift conversation. But I tihnk this is highly relevant to the attacks. A lot of people just have no idea and it is good to ask questions. 

The "open air prison" thing is really not a debate anymore. The first person to say it was actually conservative UK PM David Cameron in 2010. Since then lots of human rights orgs have agreed (as well as Palestinians who live there) with that assessment including a U.N. expert in their report on human rights in July of this year.  https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-occupation-makes-palestinian-territories-open-air-prison-un-expert-2023-07-11/ 

Yes, Egypt does control a very small section of the border but Palestinians are still blockaded on all sides. Plus the territory is technically in Israel. Egypt formally relinquished control in 1978 which was over a decade after Israel captured and occupied it. And Israel controls the resources and development of Gaza. 

You're correct, some other countries have a history of engaging in discrimination and settler-colonialism but Palestinians have endured the longest occupation modern history and persistent ethnic cleansing. Like the level of repression they have experienced is not normal nor should it be normalized as "most other countries do the exact same things". 

I've said my piece and am not going to get into everything here as I know some people are sensitive at this time.  

 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

I'm not sure how a separate thread would be divided. Where are the lines? 

Hamas and Palestinians are not equivalent any more than all Americans are KKK/White supremacist Jan 6 terrorists. 

That said, there's reports coming out that Hamas is saying up to 20 of the hostages have been killed by Israeli bombing. Nobody on the news wants to say what I've read on other forums days ago - those hostages were probably already dead and Hamas was waiting so they can claim Israel did it and not be blamed. 20 is a significant % of the hostages if this is true. However it happened, it does not bode well. I feel so sorry for all these people's families.

Why don't we know how many have been taken exactly? At this point shouldn't there be a hard number of people who are unaccounted for who were potentially in areas of the attack?

 

[fraurosena]

[TuringMachine]

11 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

Very respectfully, I am quite cautious when accusations of antisemitism are thrown around and I do not detect antisemitic sentiments in the posts of this threat. I think it is an argument that often seeks to end an open discussion about Israeli politics and implies that criticism of Israel is necessarily or at least usually connected to a hatred of Jews. However, one can support the human rights of Palestinians and call out decades of apartheid against them by  Israeli government policies while simultaneously being sympathetic to jews and the Jewish faith. 

It's very distressing being a Jew in any conversation about Israel and Palestine. I put a lot of blame on conservatives who, as I said earlier, like to confuse not hating arabs with antisemitism, and will throw out antisemitism accusations to anyone criticizing the Israeli government. Let me tell you, seeing non-Jewish people make gross, arabophobic/islamophobic comments in your "honor" does not feel great. 

But to be honest, pro-palestine conversations are often not any better. People will say (often unintentionally) anti semitic things, then refuse to listen when called out on it. At this point I've seen "criticizing Israel is not anti semitic" in defence of blatant anti semitism so many times it's starting to sound like an antisemitic dog whistle. Not to mention every Jewish influencer I've ever seen will have their posts flooded with "free Palestine" comments. 

All that being said, I agree I don't think I've seen anything that rings antisemitic to me in this thread. I guess I'd just request everyone be mindful not to go too far in the other direction and blow off an accusation of antisemitism too easily, especially when it's coming from an actual Jewish person.

[FluffySnowball]

24 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

It's very distressing being a Jew in any conversation about Israel and Palestine. I put a lot of blame on conservatives who, as I said earlier, like to confuse not hating arabs with antisemitism, and will throw out antisemitism accusations to anyone criticizing the Israeli government. Let me tell you, seeing non-Jewish people make gross, arabophobic/islamophobic comments in your "honor" does not feel great. 

But to be honest, pro-palestine conversations are often not any better. People will say (often unintentionally) anti semitic things, then refuse to listen when called out on it. At this point I've seen "criticizing Israel is not anti semitic" in defence of blatant anti semitism so many times it's starting to sound like an antisemitic dog whistle. Not to mention every Jewish influencer I've ever seen will have their posts flooded with "free Palestine" comments. 

All that being said, I agree I don't think I've seen anything that rings antisemitic to me in this thread. I guess I'd just request everyone be mindful not to go too far in the other direction and blow off an accusation of antisemitism too easily, especially when it's coming from an actual Jewish person.

I do get your point, it is indeed a very difficult discussion. Due to the horrendous crimes against jews throughout history, one has to be very careful how to word criticism, even when it concerns only political issues. 

In a way, I feel that this makes the plight of the Palestinian people even harder because they are essentially stuck with the aftereffects of unspeakable crimes against humanity that they themselves haven't caused but that affect them regardless. 

What is a hard truth, but true regardless, is that no matter the crimes committed against one's people, one never has the right to commit crimes against others. What I mean by this is that despite the nazi crimes against millions of European Jews, Israel is obliged to and should have been held accountable for adhering to international law and human rights. 

Lastly, and I can only speak for myself of course, when I criticize Israeli settler colonialism, I don't do so because I hate the idea of flourishing Jewish life. Instead, I wouldn't mind and would actually greatly appreciate to come in contact with jewish faith and life in my everyday life in Germany, where many Israeli people originate from. So if a synagogue were being built in my town, I'd be the first to welcome it. Thus, what I criticize is the human rights violation in Palestine, not jews in general. 

https://www.newarab.com/analysis/gazas-christian-minority-israels-unseen-victims

Also, it's not a faith war and my impression is that it is often pained as such by some media outlets because it is quite easy and commonplace to alienate and blame Muslims. But the decades long struggle between Israelis and Palestinians about land and power have nothing to do with "Muslims hating Jews". In fact, many Palestinian Christians are just as opposed to Israeli settler colonialism as Palestinian Muslims. But the media outlets I'm familiar with (both in German and English) never mention the existence or opinions of Christian Palestinians. I wonder why...

[Smash!]

@TuringMachine I get your feelings of distress. It‘s not okay that jews in places abroad get openly attacked in the aftermath of what happened.

As an European I fully know of the atrocities done to the Jews and my heart hurts for everyone of you. 

I can‘t help but wondering why people who experienced this magnitude of brutality and displacement against their own is able expel another group of their lands who‘ve lived there for centuries? It‘s this question that I can’t get out of my mind. The land of Israel is important to Jews, Christians and people of Islamic faith. So why is there the claim that this land belongs solely to the Jews including Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza? Why isn’t it possible that people from all races and religions can live together on the land that is historically so important to all of them?

Israel is a fascinating country. When I visited I had wonderful encounters and discussions with people across all religions. But I also witnessed the aggressions against ordinary Palestinians. It‘s just so complicated and it hurts my heart.

[SPHASH]

In church this morning the pastor read a letter from the bishop.  In it was a reminder that Palestine and Hamas are not one and the same.

[meep]

Per CNN, there are 155 hostages.

[47of74]

This happened in Illinois

Quote

An Illinois man was charged with hate crimes for stabbing a 6-year-old Muslim boy to death and wounding his mother in an attack that targeted them for their religion and as a response to the war between Israel and Hamas, officials and Muslim rights activists said on Sunday.

The boy was stabbed 26 times with a military-style knife with a 7-inch (18-cm) serrated blade, the Will County Sheriff's Office said in a statement. The 32-year-old woman had multiple stab wounds and is expected to survive the attack that occurred on Saturday in Plainfield Township, about 40 miles (64 km) southwest of Chicago.

"Detectives were able to determine that both victims in this brutal attack were targeted by the suspect due to them being Muslim and the on-going Middle Eastern conflict involving Hamas and the Israelis," the Will County Sheriff's Office said in a statement.

The suspect, Joseph Czuba, 71, was charged with first-degree murder, attempted first-degree murder, two counts of hate crime and aggravated battery with a deadly weapon, the sheriff's office said.

The FBI has been warning local law enforcement about increased threats due to this conflict.  

[Jinder Roles]

It’s looking like the victims were Palestinian and the man who committed this hate crime was their landlord. He cornered them in their home. 
 

The child’s name was Wadea Al-Fayoume. He celebrated his 6th birthday just a week ago. May he rest in eternal peace. 

[meep]

Recent CNN updates:

• Gaza hospitals are running out of fuel, Palestinian Red Crescent says

• Biden says Israeli occupation of Gaza would be a "big mistake," but Israel "has to respond" to attack

• Biden: No clear evidence Iran behind terror attacks in Israel

• Palestinian Authority president condemns Hamas attacks on Israel

• Confirmed US death toll in Israel rises to 30

• Israel says it killed a Hamas commander as it launched dozens of strikes on Gaza

• Israeli military says Hamas is still holding 155 hostages

• Israel working with UN to establish a humanitarian zone in Gaza, ambassador says

• Death toll in Israel from surprise Hamas attack now more than 1,400, IDF says

• Rafah crossing will be open, US secretary of state says after meeting with Egypt's president

• Israeli fighter jets strike Hezbollah military infrastructure in Lebanon, IDF says

• Biden says US can support both Israel and Ukraine: "We have the capacity to do this and we have an obligation"

[Jinder Roles]

I stopped watching American cable news years ago but is CNN not covering Israel’s impossible evacuation order of North Gaza? And the subsequent death of dozens of Palestinians in Israeli air strikes while trying to follow said order (Israel promised that routes were safe for evacuation and bombed them anyways). 
 

To me, that’s one of the biggest stories of the past 2 days. 

[meep]

These updates are just from past about 8 hours or so. 

[TuringMachine]

4 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

I stopped watching American cable news years ago but is CNN not covering Israel’s impossible evacuation order of North Gaza? And the subsequent death of dozens of Palestinians in Israeli air strikes while trying to follow said order (Israel promised that routes were safe for evacuation and bombed them anyways). 
 

To me, that’s one of the biggest stories of the past 2 days. 

Didn't CNN get taken over by right wings? I don't really watch CNN but I feel like that was a whole thing. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by TuringMachine

[Antimony]

It has been a relatively new change in my life, but I work now at a Catholic university. We have a close friendship with the local Orthodox Jewish school. We also have enough Muslim students that our all-faith chapel on campus is colloquially referred to as the Campus Mosque. 

On one hand, what a much needed example of all the Abrahamic religions co-existing that is. 

On the other hand, our campus-wide email about the ongoing situation simply said, "I understand this will impact members of our campus community in different ways," which is, I suppose, the understatement of the year. Never has an email been so carefully crafted to say nothing at all. In fact, the email did not contain any of the following words: Israel, Palestine, death, war, Gaza, Hamas, Jewish, Islam. I jest, but given the 

I am more glued to the news than I would like. A Muslim student emailed me asking for a last minute assignment extension this weekend. Was it normal college stuff, poor time management, or not? I don't know. An Egyptian student left my class saying after a brief discussion about science during WW2 with, "It'll be War World 3 soon. Have a good weekend, professor." and was down the hall before I could even process it. His tone was anxiety cloaked in a thin layer of gallows humor.  A student's phone went off in class. It never occurs to me to scold her -- it happens, she's a good student -- so I'm shocked when she comes to me to apologize. Her boyfriend, she explains, lives on the border. He wants to be a doctor. 

Here is what I do think I see. Netanyahu's government is increasingly right wing. There has never been a more powerful or more toxic symbiotic relationship than that between a right wing government and a terrorist group. Any right wing government can use a terrorist group as an excuse for their actions and restrictions. Towards others, towards their own citizens.  An enemy like that is a shield against criticism. An enemy like that builds war coiffeurs and good headlines. When terrorism is the enemy, anybody's civilian status is sufficiently suspect.  We've seen it again and again. It is never so easy to radicalize somebody to terrorism as when they are under an oppressive government. This symbiotic relationship, to my knowledge, has never liberated anybody. 

All of the above, I typed last night and sat on it. Thought about it, and this is...I mean it's what I got. It's what I'm seeing, it's what I can see. 

As for CNN, they have been covering the evacuation order, often relayed through UN leader opinions They just move their news bullets quickly because well, 24/7 news cycle, even online. I don't watch the news, but website wise, I've been cycling through CNN, NPR, AP, and Al Jazeera (plus a few personal friends and niche sources that I know or trust). Of these sources, there is not much obvious difference in the main story being told. 

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, Antimony said:

 

Here is what I do think I see. Netanyahu's government is increasingly right wing. There has never been a more powerful or more toxic symbiotic relationship than that between a right wing government and a terrorist group. Any right wing government can use a terrorist group as an excuse for their actions and restrictions. Towards others, towards their own citizens.  An enemy like that is a shield against criticism. An enemy like that builds war coiffeurs and good headlines. When terrorism is the enemy, anybody's civilian status is sufficiently suspect.  We've seen it again and again. It is never so easy to radicalize somebody to terrorism as when they are under an oppressive government. This symbiotic relationship, to my knowledge, has never liberated anybody. 

So. Much. This.

Read what the Israelis themselves have written about Netanyahu and his government and it had been deeply concerning for years.

It mirrors a trend worldwide with democracies struggling with increasingly right-wing, authoritarian, populist, cynical leaders who are not acting in the best interest of their people but certainly know what they want for themselves. There is no abiding by historic norms of decency.

In the US we had Trump. And that legacy continues in a very dysfunctional Congress. It will continue even longer in the judiciary and especially the Supreme Court. 

The speed at which this has happened in so many countries is head spinning.
 

 

[apple1]

6 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

Didn't CNN get taken over by right wings? I don't really watch CNN but I feel like that was a whole thing. 

No. (FWIW Chris Licht, the new/current head of CNN previously was with Morning Joe - for a bit of perspective). Not saying CNN is perfect. Getting news from multiple sources is more reliable than any one source.

[TN-peach]

The videos of bombs on the evacuation routes being used by Palestinians - there is no rocket.  The explosion did not come from the air.  The explosion was either an IED or a car bomb.  There are also pictures of blockades on the roads.  Hamas does not want the civilians to leave the northern part of Gaza.  They don't want to lose their human shields.  That is why they use hospitals as headquarters.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital

Also, sieges can be legal under international law under certain circumstances and there are many people who have made the argument that it has been met here.  An opinion piece by Thomas Wheatley an assistant professor in the Department of Law at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2023/10/14/israel-siege-gaza-hamas-legal/71170435007/

 

Hamas has 155 hostages.  Return those babies and children to their families.  I believe 20 of those are Americans.  There are 10 Thais still missing as well.  There is someone playing what I think is a very cruel hoax on Shani Louk's mother and telling her that her daughter is still alive.  Return the bodies to the families so that they can bury their loved ones.  The utter cruelty and depravity seen is this week is staggering. 

A great place to start would be to release those hostages. 

 

 

[TN-peach]

IDF is reporting a confirmed 199 hostages. Hamas is saying 200+. 

Most of these are civilians - women, children, elderly.  Many of them are babies and toddlers. 

Release the hostages. 

 

 

[Antimony]

7 hours ago, TN-peach said:

The videos of bombs on the evacuation routes being used by Palestinians - there is no rocket.  The explosion did not come from the air.  The explosion was either an IED or a car bomb.  There are also pictures of blockades on the roads.  Hamas does not want the civilians to leave the northern part of Gaza. 

I would like to know your source on this, because I've really tried to dig here. 

The Financial Times reports that these bombings were done by the Israeli army. Now, I'm not British, so I don't have a finger on the pulse of the vibe of the Financial Times or their bias, but it sounds like people have claimed it has biases in both directions, and perhaps all directions under the sun. 

NBC News also calls this Israeli airstrikes. 

The Guardian is a little more neutral in this, and notes that both parties claim each other, but they indicate that they believe they are airstrikes of some form and not a grounded explosive. 

CNN also cites this as an airstrike. 

Now, I wasn't there. I don't know. I also don't have the forensic skills to see a video and interpret if the debris is from an IED or from an airstrike. But, we know for a fact that there are ongoing airstrikes into the Gaza strip.

I have also been thinking a lot about the ongoing statement of "Criticism of Israel is not [in of itself] antisemitic." That's obviously true, and I think it's also obvious why that would start to feel like a dog whistle in of itself. 

I have also seen a weird flip of this statement, specifically from an Orthodox Jewish content creator who I very much like, and she tells her audience that "Criticism of Zionism, or being ant-Zionist is always antisemitic." And well, I think that's also obviously false and it flattens the history of the Jewish discourse around this. It is obviously true that not all Jewish peoples  support Zionism (as either a political or theological position, or as a combination of both).

In a wild example of this, a Jewish scientist was recently harassed off Twitter and has had his employer contacted repeatedly for the...grand crime of *drum roll please*...retweeting an Onion article with the headline, "Dying Gazans Criticized For Not Using Last Words To Condemn Hamas". Now, we have (largely) non-Jewish people employing the idea that this level of even mild, indirect criticism is so sufficiently antisemitic that we can accuse a Jewish antisemitism and move him off a platform and attack their job position. A discourse disaster. I mean, a goddamn mess. I mean, it does boggle the mind to watch people harass a Jewish man in the name of the defense of Israel. 

And the corollary of this, to those who may not thinking this through? Well, if one hears an Orthodox Jewish woman say "Criticism of Zionism, or being ant-Zionist is always antisemitic," one may think that "If I support Israel as a nation-state, I cannot be accused of antisemitism." And that's obviously false. That brings us home to FJ, because it is a widespread evangelical and antisemitic belief that Israel must exist to bring along the events of Revelation. (Even JillRod has recently alluded to this.) I also fear that people who do support Israel (or are willing to go through the motions of doing so while not truly being that invested) will use that as a shield against any investigation or criticism of antisemitism that they are guilty of. 

Anyway, in a sliver of good news, NPR has run a short but sweet interview with a Rabbi and an Imam. 

Quote

Imam Herbert: For our sermon [on Friday], what we've prepared is kind of a reflection piece, taking an opportunity to reflect on our lives internally and then to think about how it is that we will respond externally, right? Faith without action is absolutely useless, and action without faith is misguided. And so when we speak about an internal response to how it is that we internalize everything that's happened, one of the key things that I hope for my community to step away from the sermon with is understanding that there is pain on both sides, right?

Rabbi Brous: I see the pastor's task as offering some kind of moral clarity, which in this case means both repeating again and again that there is no justification for crimes against humanity ... And I also need to remind my community that Palestinians are suffering terribly also now and will continue to in the days ahead. And so just as we ask the world to see our pain and stand with us in our sorrow, it's our moral and spiritual obligation to do the same, to expand our lens of care and concern to also encompass the Palestinian people.

 

[meep]

CNN updates from past 5 hours: (a selection)

• President Biden to visit Israel, US Secretary of State Blinken says.
• 31 humanitarian staff killed and hospitals "on the brink of collapse" in Gaza, UN office says
• Kuwaiti Hospital in Gaza refuses Israeli warning to evacuate site
• Attorneys for family stuck in Gaza file lawsuit and demand safe evacuation
• Israeli military striking Hezbollah targets in Lebanon
• Hamas releases video of 21-year-old French-Israeli woman it claims is being held hostage
• Gaza: Israeli airstrikes kill 254 and injure 562 in 24 hours
• Supplies blocked from entering Gaza as efforts to open a humanitarian corridor ramp up.
• US Marine rapid response force headed to waters near Israel
• Biden administration prioritizing preventing threats against communities in US impacted by conflict in Israel
• Some Palestinians who followed evacuation warnings were still killed by an Israeli airstrike the next day
• Hamas says it holds between at least 200-250 hostages and claims 22 were killed in Israeli airstrikes
• Schumer calls for Senate to quickly pass an aid package and confirm a new US ambassador to Israel
• Hamas' social media following has skyrocketed on Telegram since its attack
• US still knows nothing about the condition of American hostages, official says

BBC updates from past 5 hours: (a selection)

• President Biden to visit Israel
• UN Security Council suspended session amid competing resolutions
• Israel 'striking Hezbollah terrorist targets in Lebanon
• Hamas releases first video of hostage
• Israel not seeking civilian casualties, says spokesperson
• Sirens interrupt Blinken and Israeli PM talks
• Fourteen UN agency workers killed - spokeswoman
• Israeli hostages to be used as 'leverage' - ex-Hamas chief
• 'There’s no clean water to even wash our faces'

 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

Israel denied they bombed that convoy of people heading south. I've seen break downs from various people online saying the video looks like the explosion came from below  not above. People are theorizing that Hamas bombed the Gazans to blame Israel and to scare people from going south. If the people go south, they cannot be used as human shields. This goes along with reports of Hamas blockading roads so people can't go south.

I don't know if any of this is true but Israel has been pretty open about bombing elsewhere, why would they bomb this one place and then lie about it. Also, Israel does seem to want the civilians to move south and it doesn't make sense for them to bomb the evacuation route. So I tend to believe that it was Hamas, it fits their agenda.

The news tonight is saying 199 hostages. 

I saw an interview with the family of a hostage who was in a bomb shelter Hamas threw a grenade into. Either he called parents or somebody was a witness who said that his arm was hanging off and he had tourniqueted it. Then he was taken by Hamas. 

The Shani Louk thing is extremely sad. Somebody is lying to her parents. I went down the rabbit hole on that and there's pictures that almost (99%) guarantee she was not alive when that video was taken. That somebody is telling them that she is in a hospital alive is just horrible.

I've read and watched some attempts at minute by minute for what happened at the music festival. It was not apparent to me until I saw those that Hamas basically surrounded those people and hunted them for many hours.

News I just saw tonight is they have found Iranian manufacture weapons in the weapons brought over.

Also they found may more weapons and bombs etc. So they're starting to think Hamas was planning even more but weren't able to complete.

 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

I read/watched an interview with the guy who helped negotiate the prisoner exchange awhile ago 1000 Palestinian prisoners for 1 Israeli solider.

Now I can't remember where I saw it or what his name is. or I would link. (I've watched and read so many similar articles/videos over the weekend, they've bled together. very sorry!)

But he stated that he thinks Hamas thought they would be praised by all the Muslim world for this and create some unity. He thinks they are now beginning to realize they made an error. It was not explicitly clear but implied that he has contact with these people in some form (perhaps friends of a friend of a friend, not necessarily direct contact)

I can't for the life of me remember if it was this guy or a different article that was talking about how Hezbollah made the same error some years ago in attacking Israel and there was a quote from a Hezbollah general saying that if he knew how crazy Israel would go he wouldn't have started something more than the usual tit for tat with them. 

I've read a couple of pundits talking about their sense of the situation is that Israel thinks that defeating Hamas is a greater purpose than saving the hostages.

One of the interviews I watched, may have been the guy from above, may have been somebody else, the expert was saying Hamas may decide to release women and children hostages but he did not see any situation where Hamas would release fighting age men.

 

There must be some crazy stuff going on behind the scenes that US keeps announcing that Egypt will let US people through Rafah gate and then they don't over and over. That's going to get worse as more people come south. This is too much like the afghanistan situation when all those people were trying to get in the airbase and chasing the planes taking off. (speaking of afghanistan, did anybody notice they've had a bunch of very bad earthquakes that have killed thousands of people, and it was barely a blip on the news. )

Everything seems awful and I don't even know what to hope for. 

 

 

 

[meep]

39 minutes ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

Israel denied they bombed that convoy of people heading south. I've seen break downs from various people online saying the video looks like the explosion came from below  not above. People are theorizing that Hamas bombed the Gazans to blame Israel and to scare people from going south. If the people go south, they cannot be used as human shields. This goes along with reports of Hamas blockading roads so people can't go south.

I don't know if any of this is true but Israel has been pretty open about bombing elsewhere, why would they bomb this one place and then lie about it. Also, Israel does seem to want the civilians to move south and it doesn't make sense for them to bomb the evacuation route. So I tend to believe that it was Hamas, it fits their agenda.

The news tonight is saying 199 hostages. 

I saw an interview with the family of a hostage who was in a bomb shelter Hamas threw a grenade into. Either he called parents or somebody was a witness who said that his arm was hanging off and he had tourniqueted it. Then he was taken by Hamas. 

The Shani Louk thing is extremely sad. Somebody is lying to her parents. I went down the rabbit hole on that and there's pictures that almost (99%) guarantee she was not alive when that video was taken. That somebody is telling them that she is in a hospital alive is just horrible.

I've read and watched some attempts at minute by minute for what happened at the music festival. It was not apparent to me until I saw those that Hamas basically surrounded those people and hunted them for many hours.

News I just saw tonight is they have found Iranian manufacture weapons in the weapons brought over.

Also they found may more weapons and bombs etc. So they're starting to think Hamas was planning even more but weren't able to complete.

 

The hard thing is in these types of situations, both sides tend to lie a lot, whether that is to cover their asses and/or to protect their fighters & such. We likely won't know what really happens until a bit afterward. Kind of like we would learn what the truth was behind social media stories in the first few weeks of Russia invading Ukraine.