Attacks on Israel

[fraurosena]

A thread to discuss the developments and repercussions of the attacks this weekend on Israel. Hamas has claimed responsibility. Hezbolla is aiding their effort. Israel has declared itself to be at war.

Without a speaker of the House, appropriations for aid to ally Israel are difficult at best, impossible at worst.

Iran (backed by Russia) is rumored to have secretly sponsored the attacks.

 

[noseybutt]

Thank you for starting this thread.

I have so many conflicting emotions. I understand the longstanding anti-semitism and bigotry towards the Jewish people and why there was such an intense desire to form the nation state of Israel, even though they had not had historical claim to the land for over 2,000 years.

But dang. The Israeli government has not played fair with the Palestinians and have been increasingly oppressive and violent towards the Palestinians. 

And then Hamas let loose with this horror. 

Of course Russia (or the oligarchs) have a finger in this because it's a perfect way to divert European and American unity and funding away from Ukraine.

Evangelical Christians almost uniformly support Israel because of premillennial/end times doctrine and in typical times the US would be strongly unified on this one. But we are not in typical times.

The historical Palestinian Christian population will be decimated.

What a mess!

[molecule]

The kind of attack and retaliation we are seeing will create so much trauma in the survivors, especially the young ones. I just can't wrap my mind around the trauma and the extinguished civilian lives. What a horrible war. Well, all wars are horrible, but this one especially so 

[CTRLZero]

50 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

Of course Russia (or the oligarchs) have a finger in this because it's a perfect way to divert European and American unity and funding away from Ukraine.

I wondered if this was part of the timing.  That, and the U.S. legislative process is currently in shambles.  I don’t know much about the situation, so this is just me trying to figure out things.  I’m so tired of violence. 

[noseybutt]

Just now, CTRLZero said:

I wondered if this was part of the timing.  That, and the U.S. legislative process is currently in shambles.  I don’t know much about the situation, so this is just me trying to figure out things.  I’m so tired of violence. 

I expect Hamas had the date picked out far in advance because the timing with the end of Sukkot and the sabbath seems carefully picked. The chaos in the US Congress was probably more accidental and merely a bonus.

I think it was Thursday that Putin predicted the war in Ukraine would be over in a week. Maybe he knew something? Or maybe he was just being his arrogant self? He tends to talk like that even without big events unfolding, so hard to know.

It's super interesting that Hamas pulled this off given the sophistication of Israeli intelligence.

 

[Ozlsn]

1 hour ago, noseybutt said:

It's super interesting that Hamas pulled this off given the sophistication of Israeli intelligence.

The rumours around where Hamas' intelligence originated are certainly interesting. 

[noseybutt]

9 minutes ago, Ozlsn said:

The rumours around where Hamas' intelligence originated are certainly interesting. 

What are the rumors?

 

[Audrey2]

Here are just my thoughts on these attacks:

While the timing might have been well planned I don't believe these attacks are a coincidence. Going back to when Trump was President he would make random offhand comments about the Jews this or the Jews that and those comments were not complimentary. Marjorie Taylor Green is the one who talked about Jewish space lasers. If I wanted to damage a group and I heard a country that were supposedly their allies talking like this I would start to think that I have a window of opportunity. Then, we have Tommy Tuberville blocking military promotions so that new ranking officers are either trying to do two jobs less effectively or haven't been promoted at all. That would further my thought of this is the time to strike when their biggest allies don't have their act together. Although I'm sure the date for the attacks was well planned it played into their hands even more when they got McCarthy out of office and our house is in disarray with no speaker of the house. Add in the number of US citizens including many Republicans complaining about supporting Ukraine and again if I wanted to attack an American ally this is when I feel like I could do it guessing that the US wouldn't help fund or plan a retaliation.

I should also add that other countries have been seeing our mess with will we default on our debt back in the spring and will we be able to pass a budget and have money to fund things this fall.

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Audrey2

[Ozlsn]

4 hours ago, noseybutt said:

What are the rumors?

 

So far there is a consensus that Iran gave Hamas information on Israeli weaknesses to exploit, and consensus that that originally most likely came from Russia.

Where Russia got it is where the rumours start. From the documents at Mar-a-Largo is one rumoured source; verbally whether intentionally or not from within Trump's circle is another rumour. There is the $2 billion payment from the Saudis, there are suggestions that China is involved (although how is... not really being stated), probably rumours that North Korea factors in there somehow.

Most of the rumours I've seen centre around the previous administration, although they could of course be completely baseless.

[GreyhoundFan]

Never fear, Qevin hass brought forth his "plan". I guess he forgot he's no longer in charge.

 

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, Ozlsn said:

So far there is a consensus that Iran gave Hamas information on Israeli weaknesses to exploit, and consensus that that originally most likely came from Russia.

Where Russia got it is where the rumours start. From the documents at Mar-a-Largo is one rumoured source; verbally whether intentionally or not from within Trump's circle is another rumour. There is the $2 billion payment from the Saudis, there are suggestions that China is involved (although how is... not really being stated), probably rumours that North Korea factors in there somehow.

Most of the rumours I've seen centre around the previous administration, although they could of course be completely baseless.

I hadn't thought about American intelligence leaks but that is unfortunately entirely possible.

Biden was also working hard to normalize relationships between Israel and Saudi Arabia, and that deal is now completely off the table. It could be that torpedoing that deal may have been a secondary goal.

[fraurosena]

You can't watch this without feeling his emotions. They are almost palpable.

Warning: he describes atrocities committed by Hamas in detail. Be aware it is quite disturbing.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by fraurosena
added warning

[noseybutt]

This is where it gets complicated for me.

Hamas is grotesque and seeks to annihilate all Jews from the land. There is no way getting around that and he is correct that the terror should not be sanitized.

(The Palestinian Authority which governs the West Bank does not seek annihilation of the Jews, by comparison.)

It is also true that the government of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians since 1948 is horrific, with some Palestinians believing that things were getting worse with the current government now in coalition with extreme right wing parties. Gaza had long been described as an open air prison and the people there have been denied access to ancestral land and have lived under harsh and violent conditions for generations. 

It is not hard to understand the appeal of extremism and terror, even though it doesn’t make it right.

 

[AuntCloud]

Israeli-Canadian here, with deep roots in both countries.

The scope of atrocities, the brutality and ruthlessness is unprecedented. The last time Jewish people have experienced anything similar was during WWII, which ironically is the reason the state of Israel came into existence in the first place. 
They gunned down families in their homes. They kidnapped babies, toddlers, elderly people. They rounded up people dancing at a music festival and shot them. They burned down houses, they butchered small rural communities. They killed babies. I repeat, they killed babies. They left an entire region gutted and an entire country reeling. It’s safe to say the national trauma will still be kicking around a hundred years from today. Israelis are furious at the politicians who let things slide to the point of total system failure, and I hope there will be a reckoning for the ones who were in charge. But what was done was so far beyond terrible, any reaction that is not a very hard no is condoning the atrocities. 

[fraurosena]

 

[Howl]

Just came across a thread on Twitter re: evangelicals + Biblical prophecy + Re: Israel's bombing of the Damascus airport:

"Call me crazy if you like. This is Bible prophecy in real time. Could this be the total destruction of Damascus? Ezekiel 38?"

"You aren't the 1st to mention Ezekiel 38. And yes, I have believed we have been in the end times for a few yrs now. We are literally living the book of Revelations right now."

"An oracle concerning Damascus. Behold, Damascus will cease to be a city and will become a heap of ruins. https://biblehub.com/isaiah/17-1.htm Isaiah 17:1"

"I believe so, too many things are happening in synchronicity."

"I don't know if we're there yet but it does seem that certain things in scripture are presently starting to coalesce. We should always be hyper-aware when Israel is involved."

and so forth. And right in the middle of this thread: 

 

 

 

 

 

[danvillebelle]

I'm going to say something probably unpopular, and I really don't care anymore. 

Israel is committing multiple war crimes under international law live on camera (you can see all the footage from Palestinians both on the ground and in the diaspora on Instagram and TikTok, NOT the mainstream media) and no one is lifting a finger or making them stop.  The West is cheering them on.  Bombing residential buildings full of dozens of people in the same family; entire lineages are being wiped out.  6,000 bombs in six days.  White phosphorus.  

Half the population of Gaza is children under 18.  They are not Hamas.  They know they are killing babies, and they don't care, because genocide has been their end goal for decades.  America knows this and does not care.  Because brown people who are predominantly Muslim just don't matter.  We killed a million of them in Iraq, what's a couple more million in Palestine. 

The Muslim world, including American Muslims, will never forget this.  Ever. 

[treehugger]

@danvillebelle, I hear you. I’m struggling hard with all of this. What Hamas did in Israel was horrific, yes. But I keep thinking of the open air prison that is Gaza and the ruthlessness with which the Palestinians have been treated by everyone for decades, and all I can think is, “this is how you breed terrorists”. People that have been treated like animals and literally have nothing to live for have nothing to lose. Their humanity was taken away from them a long time ago. It’s just horrifying and awful all around. 
I have a friend who worked with Doctors Without Borders in the Gaza Strip for a bit several years ago. What she saw there has haunted her ever since. 
 

None of that, of course, makes the attacks on Israel right. Those were awful and horrific too. The response has also been awful and horrific. So much pain and devastation all around. It’s gutting. 

[Xan]

I'm struggling with this too.  There is no excuse for either side to be randomly killing anyone.  "An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind."  I understand the horrors of antisemitism and I realize that there are no easy solutions to this situation.  But, between this crisis and Ukraine, there's just so much death.  When you stoop to killing children -- any children --  you've reached the nadir of your humanity.

 

[noseybutt]

Similar sentiments here too.

What Hamas did was horrific.

What the state of Israel is doing right now is horrific.

Make it make sense.

 

[Smash!]

@danvillebelle I hear you too. It‘s been horrific days for sure. Everyone seems to be supporting Israel which I get after those brutal attacks.  But Terrorist attacks like this don’t happen suddenly in a vacuum. Only the circumstances that created this environment for the Hamas to succeed aren’t brought up a lot it seems. The almost apartheid state the Israeli government created.

Don’t get me wrong, I condemn terrorist attacks. Yet Israel is doing the same now and it‘s called self defense while Palestinians (not Hamas!) are called attackers and worse when they defend themselves against Israeli settlers who occupy the West Bank.

I‘ve seen the daily aggressions (microaggressions?) towards the Palestinians first hand while I was visiting Jerusalem. Those were ordinary people who just lived their daily lives like everyone else in the city. Yet they were targeted.

 

 

[TuringMachine]

On 10/9/2023 at 7:55 PM, GreyhoundFan said:

Never fear, Qevin hass brought forth his "plan". I guess he forgot he's no longer in charge.

 

"confront anti-semitism in the U.S." 🙄 I would greatly appreciate it if conservatives would stop confusing hating muslims with being an ally to the Jewish people.

 

Reddit is also so awful right now. Seems like you either minimize and justify/support the brutality of Hamas's massacres or you're celebrating and justifying Israel's attempt to wipe out Gaza.

Everything about this is horrifying.

[Alaniel]

While I'm also conflicted about the pictures from Gaza and strongly believe that everything possible should be done to avoid civilian casualties, I agree as well with what @AuntCloud said at the end of her post. I feel that the scope of what was done was beyond anything that has been done to Jewish people since the 1930s and 1940s. I am utterly horrified at the extent of it and the pictures of people celebrating it both in Gaza and in my own country are sickening beyond words. Personally, every person who has been celebrating this has lost any and all goodwill from me.

I don't think anything that has been done by Israel justifies what happened on Saturday. I don't think raping women and murdering children are a legitimate or a neccessary form of resistance against any kind of injustice. I think Israel has to react to this and I do understand the goal of eradicating Hamas after what they did. I wish that this is possible with as few civilian casualties as possible. I really do. But I won't condemn the military action as such after what Hamas did.

I'm also hearing increasing appeals from politicians and media over the last few days in my country for Israel to be careful of avoiding civilian casualties. And from what I've seen, they are trying. Hamas could have prevented this, too, you know. They must have known that this was what would happen, that it was the only outcome that could happen (because they probably didn't expect the Israelis to just give them their own state after this), but killing the people they hate was apparently more important to them than ensuring the future they claim to want for their own people.

I absolutely don't think that "they" have a "goal of genocide" and I'm uncomfortable with this statement, as it seems to me to... accidentally posit the existence of an "evil group of Jewish people" in a way that has been done many times before, to put it as non-confrontationally as I can. (And still hoping I misinterpreted that part!)

In fact, that is the main reason for me posting this reply, as I'm normally silent on this board and don't want to cause an argument. I really wish this weren't happening. I hope there won't be any more innocent people dying. But I won't condemn Israel for trying to deal with Hamas once and for all after this.

They are saying here in Germany right now that "nie wieder ist jetzt". "Never again" is now. There is a surge of antisemitism here right now and it is mostly from immigrants from the Middle East and the far left. There are Jewish parents who are not sending there children to school for fear of them being attacked. There are non-Jewish people organizing a "guard" around a synagogue to make sure that Jewish people can go there without fear. It breaks my heart that once again Jewish people are feeling unsafe because they are Jewish. So I feel I can't be silent.

I'm conflicted about the settlement situation in Israel. I'm conflicted about the fact that there isn't a peacful two-state solution for Palestine. I'm conflicted about the fact that there are no doubt religious and political radicals in the Israeli government (as in most countries politics if not their government). I'm heartbroken for the innocents who will die in this war.

But I'm not conflicted about whose fault this is. I'm not conflicted about whether any Israeli action in the past caused this. I'm not conflicted on whether any Jewish person deserves to be held responsible for what happens in Gaza right now. And I'm not conflicted about whether the Israeli government has a right and a duty to stop the Hamas organization once and for all.

[AuntCloud]

@Alaniel thank you so much for your words of support.

Hamas is pure evil. It doesn’t care for its own people. And there is certainly a rise in antisemitism. Anyone who believes they should stay in power and that Israel doesn’t have a right to defend its people from being slaughtered - watch the pride parade in Tel Aviv, then think of what would happen if anyone attempted it in Gaza. 
1,300 of my people are dead, dozens are missing. I hope the current government resigns so that people who actually know what they’re doing and care about the people take over and pave the way to actual peace, maybe someday. 

[Dandruff]

3 minutes ago, Alaniel said:

But I'm not conflicted about whose fault this is. I'm not conflicted about whether any Israeli action in the past caused this. I'm not conflicted on whether any Jewish person deserves to be held responsible for what happens in Gaza right now. And I'm not conflicted about whether the Israeli government has a right and a duty to stop the Hamas organization once and for all.

I'm Jewish and wholeheartedly agree with this.  AFAIC, we're seeing antisemitism on this thread right now.  There is no excuse for the atrocities Hamas just delivered and will continue to if allowed, with - I'm sure - the support of like-minded entities who could easily help give the residents of Gaza a better life but prefer to use them as fodder.  They have plenty of room and resources with which to do so. 

Anyone care to look at how Jews (not throwing rocks or rockets) have been treated in some of those places, while so many have said nothing?  They've been lucky to be allowed out with their lives.

Israel is the Jewish homeland.  I'm sorry they ever gave up an inch of their land, especially during a war they didn't start.  They 100% have the right to defend themselves, for now and for the future.