Attacks on Israel

[TN-peach]

This is the video I was referring to…

https://news.sky.com/video/israel-hamas-war-explosion-on-key-gaza-route-as-civilians-flee-to-the-south-12984993

 

Are Palestinian civilians being killed by Israeli air strikes? Yes. Does Israel intentionally target civilians? No. As seen in the articles cited earlier the IDF called people and warned them to move south. The IDF would also (in the past) do a roof knock on a building as a warning.  

Hamas hides behind civilians and targets civilians. As seen on October 7 and everyday since with their rockets launched indiscriminately toward Israel.  I will have to see if I can find the article again but I read that in previous engagements something like 1 out of every 4 Hamas rockets fell short and killed Palestinians and those were blamed on Israel until after the fog of war had lifted. 

Hamas has 199 hostages and they are using them as human shields. Release the hostages.

 

 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

3 minutes ago, meep said:

The hard thing is in these types of situations, both sides tend to lie a lot, whether that is to cover their asses and/or to protect their fighters & such. We likely won't know what really happens until a bit afterward. Kind of like we would learn what the truth was behind social media stories in the first few weeks of Russia invading Ukraine. 

Everybody lies.

But we can also ask ourselves who is served by each action and who is damaged. 

[Antimony]

24 minutes ago, TN-peach said:

This is the video I was referring to…

https://news.sky.com/video/israel-hamas-war-explosion-on-key-gaza-route-as-civilians-flee-to-the-south-12984993

 

Are Palestinian civilians being killed by Israeli air strikes? Yes. Does Israel intentionally target civilians? No. As seen in the articles cited earlier the IDF called people and warned them to move south. The IDF would also (in the past) do a roof knock on a building as a warning.  

Hamas hides behind civilians and targets civilians. As seen on October 7 and everyday since with their rockets launched indiscriminately toward Israel.  I will have to see if I can find the article again but I read that in previous engagements something like 1 out of every 4 Hamas rockets fell short and killed Palestinians and those were blamed on Israel until after the fog of war had lifted. 

Hamas has 199 hostages and they are using them as human shields. Release the hostages.

 

 

I watched this video, and cross referenced it against the videos from The Guardian and these are, in fact, two separate incidents we are discussing. 

It took relatively little time to find somebody also referencing the fact that these two clearly different incidents are being discussed in a similar way - sufficiently similar as to be confusing for search engine terms. 

 Is the same convoy? I don't know. The convoy could conceivably be two miles long. Millions of people are fleeing on a limited number of roads. But it seems clear now that there is an incident of a grounded explosive and an incident with a more known death toll (I cannot find a casualty report for this video) of approximately 70 people. 

[Jinder Roles]

43 minutes ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

I don't know if any of this is true but Israel has been pretty open about bombing elsewhere, why would they bomb this one place and then lie about it. Also, Israel does seem to want the civilians to move south and it doesn't make sense for them to bomb the evacuation route. So I tend to believe that it was Hamas, it fits their agenda.

 

Well that’s easy to figure out. It’s unpopular and they’re getting a lot of shit for it. 
 

Israel also lied about the ‘40 babies being beheaded my Hamas in an attack’ thing. Both the Biden administration and CNN had to walk back their repetition of that. Israel then admitted it “couldn’t confirm.” In the direct aftermath of the killing of journalist Shireen Abu-Akleh, Israel tried to say she was in the presence of Palestinian militants and that’s who killed her. It was only after overwhelming evidence and many investigations that they said there was a “probability” that they “accidentally” killed her (they definitely intentionally targeted her). Nobody was ever held accountable. So yeah, the Israeli government lies sometimes. 

I really want y’all to cite your sources because it is being overwhelming reported by all manner of media that it was Israeli airstrikes. Like, where are you getting this information? 

A context many people don’t know is the most people in Gaza are refugees who were displaced from their land. Yes some are fleeing. Many of them do not want to leave Gaza City because they have nowhere to go and do not want to be removed for their homes yet again and are worried they may never be able to return.  And then there’s the disabled and sick people who can’t leave…

The U.N. (an org nobody could accuse of being radical) has condemned Israel’s evacuation order. It’s impossible to move 1.1 million people without triggering a mass humanitarian crisis and it’s a violation of international law. 

The argument up-thread that the current assault on Gaza is somehow legal is very bizarre. Collective punishment is a war crime (e.g: cutting off food, fuel and water to Gaza), the use of white phosphorus is a war crime, again moving 1 million people out of their homes is a war crime. Targeting mainly civilian residences and ambulances is definitely not acceptable by any international standard. 
 

 

 

[noseybutt]

2 hours ago, Antimony said:

 

And the corollary of this, to those who may not thinking this through? Well, if one hears an Orthodox Jewish woman say "Criticism of Zionism, or being ant-Zionist is always antisemitic," one may think that "If I support Israel as a nation-state, I cannot be accused of antisemitism." And that's obviously false. That brings us home to FJ, because it is a widespread evangelical and antisemitic belief that Israel must exist to bring along the events of Revelation. (Even JillRod has recently alluded to this.) I also fear that people who do support Israel (or are willing to go through the motions of doing so while not truly being that invested) will use that as a shield against any investigation or criticism of antisemitism that they are guilty of. 

 

 

The Anti-Defamation League takes the same view: any criticism of Zionism is anti-semitism. See here: https://antisemitism.adl.org/anti-zionism/

This Vox article for May 2023 is interesting because it gets at the US definition of antisemitism under Biden: https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/5/25/23733396/internal-jewish-debate-definition-antisemitism-ihra-israel-zionism

I admit to also struggling with anti-Zionism being automatically anti-semitic because it shuts out the Palestinians who historically have not been granted the same human rights within Israel as Jewish people. But maybe that is not a questioning of Zionism so much as a questioning of policy?

The fact is, Israel exists. There is a difference between saying "the Jews should be given this exact land as their own" and acknowledging the fact that this has already happened.

Criticism of the Israeli government IMO is fair game provided it is not an attack on religion and culture.

[noseybutt]

Also, little known fact. In US jail and prison world, rabbis and imams often cooperate with each other to meet spiritual needs of the inmates--for example, to make sure proper foods are delivered for halal or kosher diets, deliver religious objects, cover for each other on the schedules, etc. They are closer aligned with each other than with Christian clergy because of the issue of the trinity. I rarely see Muslim-Christian clergy cooperate, but Muslim-Jewish cooperation is quite common.

[Antimony]

27 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

The Anti-Defamation League takes the same view: any criticism of Zionism is anti-semitism. See here: https://antisemitism.adl.org/anti-zionism/

This Vox article for May 2023 is interesting because it gets at the US definition of antisemitism under Biden: https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/5/25/23733396/internal-jewish-debate-definition-antisemitism-ihra-israel-zionism

I admit to also struggling with anti-Zionism being automatically anti-semitic because it shuts out the Palestinians who historically have not been granted the same human rights within Israel as Jewish people. But maybe that is not a questioning of Zionism so much as a questioning of policy?

The fact is, Israel exists. There is a difference between saying "the Jews should be given this exact land as their own" and acknowledging the fact that this has already happened.

Criticism of the Israeli government IMO is fair game provided it is not an attack on religion and culture.

I like this ADL article, though I do think it does not address that there are clearly Jewish anti-Zionists. Some of them are coming from theological point of view that is relatively niche, and others are coming from a more leftist point of view. But, I also think we're living at a time that has flattened and simplified the historical diversity of opinion among Jewish people worldwide about the establishment of Israel, ranging from if it should exist at all to the nitty gritty of each of those policies. I do also hear reports of peoples who have maintained friendships across the borders and across their faiths and it is difficult to imagine that some of these people who are doing so are not also maintaining friendships across differing beliefs on Zionism.

I also think there is a certain lack of precision in the term here (which I could also get better at). I believe that most Americans equate Zionism with the support of the State of Israel as we know it now and frequently, the policies from the Israeli government of the past fifteen-ish years, which is understandable -- it's our current frame of reference. I also think its entirely possible to understand the need for a Jewish homeland but also see events during and after 1948 as egregious violations of human rights and have criticism for the policies that Israel itself considers to be part of modern Zionism. (I also think it's unfair to leave England out of this, as if they weren't also colonizing the area that is now Israel. Like, damn, also some whack shit going on over here. Whack.)

I also do think almost all Evangelical Zionism is antisemitic because...trying to get the Jewish people to return to the homeland so you can...achieve the prophecies of your religion that by their very definition would lead to the suffering of Jewish people (and all other non-Christians, unless everybody converts real fast???) is clearly antisemitic and totally whack. 

Edit: I have, also been incidentally thinking because of all this, about the difference between a nation-state and a nation, and the fact that all Nations in the Bible were never really nation-states. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Antimony

[noseybutt]

1 minute ago, Antimony said:

I like this ADL article, though I do think it does not address that there are clearly Jewish anti-Zionists. Some of them are coming from theological point of view that is relatively niche, and others are coming from a more leftist point of view. But, I also think we're living at a time that has flattened and simplified the historical diversity of opinion among Jewish people worldwide about the establishment of Israel, ranging from if it should exist at all to the nitty gritty of each of those policies. I do also hear reports of peoples who have maintained friendships across the borders and across their faiths and it is difficult to imagine that some of these people who are doing so are not also maintaining friendships across differing beliefs on Zionism.

I also think there is a certain lack of precision in the term here (which I could also get better at). I believe that most Americans equate Zionism with the support of the State of Israel as we know it now and frequently, the policies from the Israeli government of the past fifteen-ish years, which is understandable -- it's our current frame of reference. I also think its entirely possible to understand the need for a Jewish homeland but also see events during and after 1948 as egregious violations of human rights and have criticism for the policies that Israel itself considers to be part of modern Zionism. (I also think it's unfair to leave England out of this, as if they weren't also colonizing the area that is now Israel. Like, damn, also some whack shit going on over here. Whack.)

I also do think almost all Evangelical Zionism is antisemitic because...trying to get the Jewish people to return to the homeland so you can...achieve the prophecies of your religion that by their very definition would lead to the suffering of Jewish people (and all other non-Christians, unless everybody converts real fast???) is clearly antisemitic and totally whack. 

My attempt to explain (maybe?) how the term Zionism has morphed.

In the late 19th century and early part of the 20th century, it was about establishing a Jewish homeland and some of the suggested locations were not in Palestine at all. Then, it became about establishing the state of Israel in the approximate boundaries as today. Then, a later shift to keeping the current state of Israel in existence.

The modern definition would not have been widely thought to be possible in the mid 19th century.
 

 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

I continue to be horrified no matter exactly which party did what and I really wish we humans could do better.

I certainly believe that Israel has lied and done some bad things. I don't think any larger country has its hands clean at this point. No country is without bad people willing to do unspeakable things.

But per today's story I have a hard time believing that Israel purposefully blew up a hospital. Israel understands how that would look to the world. This act appears to have united the muslim countries much more than looked likely a few days ago. Sadly, it does seem very apparent that Hamas does not mind sacrificing people. So I'm suspicious is all I'll say. The timing and the extremity is very suspicious.

If Israel did not do this they need to figure out how to get ahead of this narrative fast because Hamas is winning the propaganda/information war at this point. Which is a weird thing to say about such an organization.

-----

With respect to zionism and all you guys mentioned above. I have genuinely tried to understand it but it is very difficult if you don't have a lot of background information. It's like trying to learn all the nuances of American politics - but only if there were also factions of Americans settled in different countries around the globe who still interact with the home country politics. Very confusing.

2 weeks ago I had only the vaguest idea that Israel was having some sort of right wing political situation and that was only because of the big story about the judicial review law. 

I say this because I think I pay attention to politics more than the average American and I don't understand it at all. My friend didn't even know that any kind of attack happened when I mentioned it in the first few days and she didn't understand why I was bothered by it. Nobody has mentioned it at work except as "oh that war or whatever" roll eyes. 

 

 

 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

Various Muslim leaders are now refusing to meet with Biden. Anti-Israeli protests are increasing and becoming more violent. This seems like it's spilling out worldwide and escalating very quickly. 

There's still no real explanation for why there hasn't been some sort of agreement to get aid into Gaza from Egypt and some of the non-gazans out of Gaza. If Egypt won't let aid go in....then what? Can they air drop stuff? 

 

[treehugger]

I don’t know who bombed the hospital, but Isreal did order the hospitals to be evacuated 

https://www.who.int/news/item/14-10-2023-evacuation-orders-by-israel-to-hospitals-in-northern-gaza-are-a-death-sentence-for-the-sick-and-injured

Either way it is horrifying and I am sick to my stomach by all the bloodshed. 

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

I continue to be horrified no matter exactly which party did what and I really wish we humans could do better.

I certainly believe that Israel has lied and done some bad things. I don't think any larger country has its hands clean at this point. No country is without bad people willing to do unspeakable things.

But per today's story I have a hard time believing that Israel purposefully blew up a hospital. Israel understands how that would look to the world. This act appears to have united the muslim countries much more than looked likely a few days ago. Sadly, it does seem very apparent that Hamas does not mind sacrificing people. So I'm suspicious is all I'll say. The timing and the extremity is very suspicious.

If Israel did not do this they need to figure out how to get ahead of this narrative fast because Hamas is winning the propaganda/information war at this point. Which is a weird thing to say about such an organization.

-----

With respect to zionism and all you guys mentioned above. I have genuinely tried to understand it but it is very difficult if you don't have a lot of background information. It's like trying to learn all the nuances of American politics - but only if there were also factions of Americans settled in different countries around the globe who still interact with the home country politics. Very confusing.

2 weeks ago I had only the vaguest idea that Israel was having some sort of right wing political situation and that was only because of the big story about the judicial review law. 

I say this because I think I pay attention to politics more than the average American and I don't understand it at all. My friend didn't even know that any kind of attack happened when I mentioned it in the first few days and she didn't understand why I was bothered by it. Nobody has mentioned it at work except as "oh that war or whatever" roll eyes. 

 

 

 

Model United Nations for the win.

 I’m not kidding. I remember sitting in the town library in high school and reading the Balfour Declaration and the United Nations Partition Plan.

That said,  I am far from an expert and definitely cannot follow some of the modern nuances. Like, the normalization progress that was happening between Israel and Saudi Arabia is hard for me to wrap my head around. Also the accusations that Netanyahu was essentially propping up Hamas to discredit the PA or increase tension among the Palestinians.

[TN-peach]

There is really good thread on Twitter about the failed rocket launch using geolocation data. 
 

https://x.com/geoconfirmed/status/1714390254935851272?s=46&t=1DcbQlMZKU9i8UVKK6nChg

Spoiler

From another poster on Twitter, drone footage seems to show that the rocket fell in the parking lot not the hospital. To me landing in a parking lot full of cars would explain the large explosion.  
 

From the radars the rockets were launched in the southern part of Gaza and close to the sea. The rockets were launched toward Israel and the hospital was under the path. Apparently, 30% of rockets launched from Gaza land in Gaza. Also, those rockets are aimed towards Israel without a regard to where they land. Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties but Hamas/Islamic Jihad tries to maximize civilian casualties. 

[noseybutt]

18 minutes ago, TN-peach said:

There is really good thread on Twitter about the failed rocket launch using geolocation data. 
 

https://x.com/geoconfirmed/status/1714390254935851272?s=46&t=1DcbQlMZKU9i8UVKK6nChg

  Reveal hidden contents

From another poster on Twitter, drone footage seems to show that the rocket fell in the parking lot not the hospital. To me landing in a parking lot full of cars would explain the large explosion.  
 

From the radars the rockets were launched in the southern part of Gaza and close to the sea. The rockets were launched toward Israel and the hospital was under the path. Apparently, 30% of rockets launched from Gaza land in Gaza. Also, those rockets are aimed towards Israel without a regard to where they land. Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties but Hamas/Islamic Jihad tries to maximize civilian casualties. 

I think it is too soon to know on the hospital attack. 

Per the boldest, I am not sure I agree. Or rather, I think it’s a bit more nuanced. 

[meep]

I've been posting the selected updates, I thought it might be helpful for people who are busy to be able to quickly find an update from the past 8 hours within the scrolling live feeds. Should I keep doing it? If it's not helpful, this will be my last one. 

CNN: (selected)

• IDF to release more evidence to prove Israel was not responsible for Gaza hospital blast, spokesperson says
• Biden plans to ask Israel tough questions "as a friend" during Tel Aviv visit, White House says
• German Chancellor's plane evacuated after air raid alert in Israel, Reuters video shows
• Canadian officials: International negotiators seem to be closer to securing humanitarian corridor out of Gaza
• The US and Israel continue efforts to locate impacted Americans in the Middle East, FBI director says
• UN Human Rights chief says deaths from Gaza hospital blast are "unacceptable"
• Protests break out around Middle East and North Africa after Gaza hospital blast
• In photos: The aftermath of a bombing of a hospital in Gaza
• UN Security Council will hold meeting on Middle East Wednesday 
• World Health Organization says healthcare facilities should never be targeted
• Jordan cancels planned summit with Biden and other Middle East leaders
• "No safe passage has been granted" for humanitarian aid from Egypt to Gaza, foreign minister says
• EU can stand in solidarity with Israel while helping with needs of Palestinians, commission president says
• At least 17 journalists have been killed during Israel-Hamas conflict, press freedom group says
• Pentagon says "steady flow of weapons" to Israel will continue
• Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas cancels meeting with Biden after hospital strike
• The "IDF does not target hospitals," Netanyahu spokesperson says
• IDF chief: Hezbollah will be "destroyed" if it "makes a mistake"
• Palestinian Authority president declares 3 days of mourning after Gaza hospital strike
• Nova festival survivors share their stories with foreign dignitaries: "It was an attack against humanity"

BBC Summary Blurb:

"It's now almost 04:00 in Gaza and Israel.

If you're just joining us, here's what's been happening in the last few hours:

• The authorities in Gaza, the Palestinian territory run by the militant group Hamas, say 500 people died in an explosion at a hospital. Hamas blamed Israel, which in turn blamed Palestinian militants
• Hamas said an Israeli air strike on the hospital was to blame, describing it as a “war crime”, while Israel denied its military was involved, saying the explosion had been inadvertently caused by a rocket fired by another militant group, Palestinian Islamic Jihad
• Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the second biggest militant group in the Gaza Strip, denied responsibility
• International leaders released statements condemning the loss of life at the hospital
• The leaders of Jordan, Egypt and the Palestinian Authority have cancelled a planned summit with US President Joe Biden on Wednesday
• Biden is currently travelling to Israel where he will meet Israeli leaders
• Hamas and Hezbollah, the militant group that controls southern Lebanon, have both said that the US shares the blame with Israel for the hospital blast
• A large group of protesters held an overnight rally outside the US embassy in Beirut, where they started a fire and hung Palestinian flags from the walls of the compound"

 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

@meep I think it's helpful. I didn't see all the stories you mentioned just now and I was trying to catch up after work.

By Friday I will be back logged.  I imagine there are other people perhaps reading here who don't comment much who can catch up too. I'm also finding it very depressing tonight. so I had to turn off the news, despite wanting to get caught up.

---------

I found the quote above very unsettling that 30% of the rockets come down in Gaza and never make it to Israel.  Fucking hell. If people could just put all these resources to helping people instead of blowing them up. I don't even know what's going on in Ukraine these days and I can't go look. It's too much.

[noseybutt]

32 minutes ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

@meep I think it's helpful. I didn't see all the stories you mentioned just now and I was trying to catch up after work.

By Friday I will be back logged.  I imagine there are other people perhaps reading here who don't comment much who can catch up too. I'm also finding it very depressing tonight. so I had to turn off the news, despite wanting to get caught up.

---------

I found the quote above very unsettling that 30% of the rockets come down in Gaza and never make it to Israel.  Fucking hell. If people could just put all these resources to helping people instead of blowing them up. I don't even know what's going on in Ukraine these days and I can't go look. It's too much.

I agree with the sadness and heaviness.

Best case scenario is for these conflicts to stay localized but that still means a shocking amount of death and destruction.

[TN-peach]

The US State Department has ordered the Embassy in Lebanon has to evacuate all family members and non-essential personnel. 
 

There have been attacks against the US Embassy in Beirut and the Israeli consulate. 

[WatchingTheTireFireBurn]

geez. And here we thought Trump and Putin were going to cause WW3.

I sure hope somehow this calms down

Hamas, release the hostages, nobody benefits from total annihilation of anybody. I can't think of anything else that might de escalate. I could kick whichever dude called for a day of hate or whatever he said for Muslims. I refused to go look it up right now. Kick him in the shins and ask him where is mama is, he needs a time out.

And meanwhile our stupid house of reps wants to elect a crazy right winger as house speaker.

[noseybutt]

35 minutes ago, WatchingTheTireFireBurn said:

geez. And here we thought Trump and Putin were going to cause WW3.

I sure hope somehow this calms down

Hamas, release the hostages, nobody benefits from total annihilation of anybody. I can't think of anything else that might de escalate. I could kick whichever dude called for a day of hate or whatever he said for Muslims. I refused to go look it up right now. Kick him in the shins and ask him where is mama is, he needs a time out.

And meanwhile our stupid house of reps wants to elect a crazy right winger as house speaker.

This is where I have so much empathy for the people of Israel. Stopping right wing madness in a democracy is so much harder than I ever dreamed.

[Jackie3]

 

On 10/10/2023 at 8:04 PM, AuntCloud said:

They gunned down families in their homes. They kidnapped babies, toddlers, elderly people. They rounded up people dancing at a music festival and shot them. They burned down houses, they butchered small rural communities. They killed babies. I repeat, they killed babies. They left an entire region gutted and an entire country reeling. It’s safe to say the national trauma will still be kicking around a hundred years from today. Israelis are furious at the politicians who let things slide to the point of total system failure, and I hope there will be a reckoning for the ones who were in charge. But what was done was so far beyond terrible, any reaction that is not a very hard no is condoning the atrocities. 

 

Well, the "very hard no" happened today. Israel killed  500 people (babies included) in a Gaza hospital. In an air strike. 

Israel denies they made this strike. Maybe that's true, maybe it isn't. We'll know soon enough (there's likely to be footage surfacing).

But either way, Israel is now guilty of killing babies too. They're depriving Gaza residents of food and medical care, which has led to the deaths of innocents.

So now both sides have killed babies. I believe those Palestinian babies had just as much right to live as the Israeli ones. 

Hamas is an evil organization. But it would have been nothing in Gaza, if the Israelis hadn't treated the Palestinians like animals over the years.

I'm very well versed in the details of the Holocaust, and knew many survivors when I was growing up. It astonishes me to see Israel -- two generations out -- persecuting others in the same way they were persecuted.  Ghettos? Check. Work permits? Check. Persecuted people who use underground tunnels to get out of their ghetto? Check.  The irony is painful.

(Jew here. Not a fan of killing innocents.)

[danvillebelle]

The IDM/IDF tweeted "we have just hit a hospital and terrorists were killed."  When they saw the civilian death toll, they deleted it.  The screenshot is readily available all over the internet, if anyone here cares. 

They shelled the hospital a few days ago, then contacted them and said, "why have you not evacuated". 

There are two rocket videos being put forward.  One is from 2022, and the other one was timestamped 40 minutes AFTER the hospital blast.  When they realized their mistake on one of their tweets that included the video, they went back and deleted the video from it. 

Israel murdered Shireen Abu Akleh and said the Palestinians did it.  Months later, when it was completely out of the news cycle, they admitted they did it and would not press charges against the soldier.  

In a now deleted blatantly racist tweet, Netanyahu referred to Palestinian lives as "children of darkness" and "the law of the jungle."

If you research all this for yourself and still back the *state* of Israel...no words. 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by danvillebelle

[Antimony]

12 hours ago, TN-peach said:

Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties but Hamas/Islamic Jihad tries to maximize civilian casualties. 

Let's like...be real for a second here. We have a fundamental issue that neither side considers, well, almost anybody, on the opposing side to be a civilian. This is a war where everybody's civilian status is always going to be under scrutiny. 

Israel has mandatory military service for both men and women. The conflict has been going on since 1948, and because of this, almost any adult who hasn't been exempted from service has served in the IDF in some capacity. (For a rough numbers comparison, the US army reserves are approximately 800K compared to a population of 330M, and the IDF reserves are about 400K with a population of 9M. We are both some of the most militarized countries around. )

On top of this, since the Nakba, the Israeli government offers stipends to their citizens that take up homes or land (seized) from Palestinians. They're being subsidized to expand territory. Does that make you a civilian or not, if you're actively being paid by the government to keep control of some land? 

On the other side, terrorism allegations allow you to put anybody's civilian status under scrutiny.  Any adult man? Possibly a member of Hamas. The very nature of terrorism and guerilla war means anybody can be accused. Too near a hospital, or school, or community center? You're too close to a terrorist hub. This is how Israel (can try to) justify the fact that they can and do stop water, electricity, food and aid into Gaza. Surely all of that humanitarian aid would aid Hamas, they say. A terrorist as an enemy makes for a shadow enemy. Anybody is suspect, so everybody is suspect, so collective punishment becomes justified. 

It almost doesn't matter how much the world screams to protect civilians, to leave civilians out of it, because the definition of civilian is fundamentally malleable in this situation. 

[noseybutt]

RE minimizing/maximizing civilian casualties. The argument that IDF is morally superior because they aim to kill fewer civilians is a tough sell when the numbers tell a very different story. Look at the data over the years and this has always been a very lopsided fight. Barring international involvement, there is no question that Israel will win this war and win it resoundingly. But, due to the population density in Gaza, a high percentage of children within that population, and an almost complete lack of civil defense infrastructure---any attacks on Gaza will kill a high percentage of civilians and a disproportionate number of children.

This is why many Israelis have sought a political solution rather than a military one. The problem is a logjam with their politics---I don't believe Netanyahu's policies are supported by the majority yet here we are.

 

[Antimony]

28 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

But, due to the population density in Gaza, a high percentage of children within that population, and an almost complete lack of civil defense infrastructure---any attacks on Gaza will kill a high percentage of civilians and a disproportionate number of children.

It is worth noting that the Gaza strip can be superimposed over New York and covers roughly from Yonkers to the top tip of Staten Island. You could take two trains from New Rochelle to the FiDi and it would take you a little over an hour. You could commute the Gaza Strip. 

Gaza City itself more densely populated the Los Angeles or Boston or Philly or Chicago or San Fran or Jersey City or Miami. But it is almost unimaginable to imagine targeting any place in Philly or Boston and Miami and not hitting a civilian. It just...doesn't compute. The population of Gaza City itself is roughly comparable to Boston/Miami. It is unfathomable to imagine a full evacuation of those cities, never mind their suburbs.