Bro Gary Hawkins 23: Give Us the History

[Xan]

9 hours ago, thoughtful said:

He tells a story about a woman, new to the congregation, who came to his office for counseling, acting "weird," who said she was too embarrassed to say what was on her mind, so he gave her a 3x5 card to write down what she was thinking, and he said that, on the card, she "propositioned me for an intimate sexual act. In my office. Written down on a card."

Okay Alex, I'll take "Things that Never Happened" for $500, please...

Why do they make up these stories?  Was Baker trying to assure us that some woman would desire him?  Was it that he wants to be seen as so morally strong and pure that he'd have the woman thrown out?  And if he was a real pastor who cared for his flock and if the story was true, he'd get that woman a counsellor.  (God knows that anyone who would desire Baker isn't exactly knitting with a full ball of yarn.)

This feels to me like a sermon that he's given before and keeps trying to perfect.  It's a cover for Hyles and Roloff and any other fundie leaders who have been accused of anything.  Baker himself chose to support a man accused of rape and to not support the man's victim.  I think it's a, "See?  This happens with all religions and jobs.  The women are temptresses!"

[thoughtful]

1 hour ago, Xan said:

Was Baker trying to assure us that some woman would desire him?  Was it that he wants to be seen as so morally strong and pure that he'd have the woman thrown out? 

I am penciling in the little oval next to "C. All of the above."

1 hour ago, Xan said:

It's a cover for Hyles and Roloff and any other fundie leaders who have been accused of anything.  Baker himself chose to support a man accused of rape and to not support the man's victim.  I think it's a, "See?  This happens with all religions and jobs.  The women are temptresses!"

Yes, he doesn't seem to have any thought that some of these men were predators using the church as a cover for their actions.

At the other end of the spectrum of blame, I figure he would have no sympathy for anyone in an unhappy marriage or needing to hide their true sexuality due to the constraints of their religion. He can't sympathize with those who end up in trouble with their church community for things that would be somewhat easier to deal with (and might have never even come up in the first place) in The World.

It's all just temptations of the flesh, to be avoided or satisfied with your spouse.

Well, he did have a bit in there about how the Catholic practice of expecting priests to be celibate was the reason for their abuses, since they don't have wives. So, in the case of Catholics, the church itself is to blame.

But, for everyone else, it's either the devil trying to destroy the One True Church with temptation and rumors, or just The Flesh.

ETA - I think this is also his way of saying "I have given you the path, the biblical warnings about not giving in to sexual sin, so I've met my responsibility."

He's way too sympathetic to abusers once they are found out (hence his involvement with FIG), but I think he also wants to be able to think "Hey, don't blame me - I gave them the lecture about avoiding it" about his own congregation and the men of Onesimus House.

Edited December 11, 2023 by thoughtful

[Black Aliss]

13 hours ago, thoughtful said:

Adam and Eve reason for marriage between one man and one woman, no sex outside of it

As if they had any other options! There was no Steve for either of them. Oh, wait, there was no marriage, either. And if either of them got it on with other primates, God's scribes didn't see it as important enough to write about it.

[AmazonGrace]

JMO I always thought it's a bit pervy to have sex with your own rib.

[thoughtful]

Gary found a profound thought from someone else (who seems to have some trouble with singular vs. plural), and posted it:

Spoiler

Comments so far, from various J. names:

Spoiler

The likes are from Gary, so he's either not going to answer Jason, or he's saving it for later.

Oh, and he and Becky did make it to church on Wednesday night - I didn't listen to any of the service.

ETA - Jason's comment is now deleted.

Edited December 16, 2023 by thoughtful

[thoughtful]

Gary, a public (!) high school marching band in Arkansas has a routine you would love (NSFW) .

Spoiler

 

Later in the routine, they form a giant cross out of benches:

Spoiler

I wish I could find a video of the whole thing, because I want to know if they re-enact an altar call at the end.

More here:
https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/43153-ffrf-urges-ark-school-district-to-end-revival-like-halftime-shows

Edited December 16, 2023 by thoughtful
to add NSFW warning for a couple of f-bombs from the narrator

[thoughtful]

Gary likes a rant about the difference between teaching and preaching, from a preacher calling out other preachers attending a conference. He says it's OK with him if they "want to be dumb," which sounds a lot like Gary's "you have the right to be wrong."

Also, "the word is described, in the word" as a hammer, a fire, and a sword. So he thinks it's "reasonable" that people to whom he has preached should feel hammered (that's how he put it, and later he says "smashed," as well!    ), pierced, and on fire.

 

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1837016846717963

[Xan]

It's like Gary is just a dumb little sponge.  The only thing is that he just absorbs stupidity.  Can other versions of the Bible help explain our religion better?  Nope.  Teaching and preaching are not the same.  Oh yeah.  Boy howdy, he's all over that one.

[thoughtful]

A comment under Gary's latest post:

That has to be a nom de Facebook, right? That can't be his real name!

In any case, I think he should change it to Champion Lotsa Commas.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100076831727078&comment_id=Y29tbWVudDo3MzYyMzA3MzMzODE0MDM3XzEzOTk3NjU5MDA5NjA0NDY%3D

[thoughtful]

Gary found someone else who is anti-X.

Spoiler

 

 

[thoughtful]

Gary eschews grammar:

Spoiler

Becky and Gary were in church this morning. Gary hovers near Becky during the greeting as usual, but at least some people come over to them.

In the announcements, Baker was talking about some proselytizing videos he wants them to use, and the various languages in which they are available. The captions had some problems with it.

"I've got pidgin" became "I've got pigeon" - that one is understandable. When he said "the plan of salvation," the captions said:

Spoiler

That describes their style, I think - just plow on through and rack up those conversions!

I don't have the patience to find out what this morning's sermon was about.

[thoughtful]

No other way:

Spoiler

I guess whoever made this didn't know how to spell Dalai. Or perhaps they really meant Dali:

Spoiler

 

[postscript]

They didn’t know how to spell Confucius or Buddha, either. Not that Gary would notice. 

[Xan]

As usual, I'm confused.  Is Jesus a giant or is that regular sized Jesus with some kid?  Does Jesus have a pot belly?  (Not fat shaming Poster Jesus but there is a rounded stomach there.)  Why are they surrounded by flames?  This looks more like Dumbledore and Harry trying to undo some horcrux than Jesus being benevolent.  (Disclaimer:  I've probably seen too many Harry Potter movies.)

[thoughtful]

5 hours ago, postscript said:

They didn’t know how to spell Confucius or Buddha, either.

Confucious would make a great adjective, meaning confused by an especially arcane saying of an ancient sage.

[Alisamer]

7 hours ago, thoughtful said:

No other way:

  Hide contents

I guess whoever made this didn't know how to spell Dalai. Or perhaps they really meant Dali:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

How bad was the spelling under "Muhammad" that they had to cover it over without matching the font?

I love Dali's art. He'd probably have turned Gary into a meme. It seems his style somehow.

7 hours ago, postscript said:

They didn’t know how to spell Confucius or Buddha, either. Not that Gary would notice. 

Gary is lucky he manages to spell anything right. 

6 hours ago, Xan said:

As usual, I'm confused.  Is Jesus a giant or is that regular sized Jesus with some kid?  Does Jesus have a pot belly?  (Not fat shaming Poster Jesus but there is a rounded stomach there.)  Why are they surrounded by flames?  This looks more like Dumbledore and Harry trying to undo some horcrux than Jesus being benevolent.  (Disclaimer:  I've probably seen too many Harry Potter movies.)

I am nearly positive that is Gandalf and Frodo. Throw the ring into the fire, Frodo!!! 

[thoughtful]

Gary is strangely efficient, in a way - he gets the jump on being pissy about what he thinks other people may do, before they even do it.

I thought eve was a noun - Gary makes it sound like a verb.  Just how does one Christmas Eve?

I think that "are" is supposed to be "or," which would make the third sentence make sense. But the fourth one is pure Gary.

[Ozlsn]

That fourth sentence... look maybe it's me but what exactly are you calling JESUS for but not in HIS house? In the back seat of the car maybe?

[thoughtful]

More comments under Gary's post about 12/24:

Spoiler

Gary's latest about the evil X:

Spoiler

Becky and Gary were in church on Sunday evening. The list of blessings ("neat, special, good!") included:

- a woman's sister went to a third doctor, who says she does not have leukemia. They credit God, of course, and I hope this third opinion is actually right, and she's not ignoring leukemia.

- someone "witnessed to two boys, and they got saved." He also tried witnessing to a guy who said he's going to bible college in Indiana, and even he was nice, which led to some discussion of how much more open to the gospel and nice people are in Tennessee.

- Baker's mother says she had the privilege to go to a birthday party for someone turning 90, and he interrupts with, "Someone older than you?!" She goes on for quite a while about people there who knew them for many years, and I think Baker is not happy that she is taking so much time (I admit I'm guessing, but he runs such a tight ship when it comes to pacing that I can't imagine him wanting anyone, even his own mother, taking up that much). He cuts in again, when she's sort of finished, with "Over 50 years ago. Beautiful, beautiful, sweet, uhhhh . . . imagine what heaven's gonna be like,  when you get to see and connect with all those people and they remember things that were done for them and t'help them. Anybody else? Blessing, blessing, blessing? All right - let's sing."

Then he notices that his wife wanted to add a blessing. She starts by praising the music program in the church, and I think it's actually her way of apologizing for something that happened when a group of young people had been singing earlier, and she was accompanist. She had dropped out, and the kids kept on going. Pastor jokes "I thought that was an a cappella spot, just for the boys."

She had, she said "a pianist's worst nightmare" 🙄  when she had to turn back two pages for a repeat, only turned one, and took a few seconds to turn the other, find her place, and get back in. She sounds a bit nervous.

After a half-hearted "beautiful, beautiful," Baker asks if anybody is too warm, and counts the hands ("two"), then if anybody is too cold ("three"). Then he tells them "trade places."

I went back and listened to the song. David was correct in mentioning that only the boys were singing when it happened, so it's clear that he noticed. I wonder if he would have given her a hard time about it later - all in good fun, of course. 🙄

They did indeed keep right on going, and none of them, including the girls and the conductor (Baker's son Darick, I think) even glanced in her direction.

I think that the music in this church is pretty well-rehearsed. I also think it's open to whoever wants to participate, not just those they consider musically gifted, so how any group or soloist doing a special sounds is a mixed bag. It's generally better than the Rods (and nobody makes them actually fall on their knees).

But I bet Baker has plenty to say about anyone whose singing or playing he doesn't like.

Edited December 20, 2023 by thoughtful
riffle

[Alisamer]

I find how churches handle music to be interesting. The church I attend sometimes (and play bells at) was for a long time known for the excellent music program and even still it's pretty good. I was speaking to a co-worker (as we were printing the programs for a church's Christmas Eve and day services) and she said that it seemed we were printing a program for a concert not a service - her church nobody knows what they're going to sing until the pastor tells you what page to turn to. Which frankly is super odd to me! She goes to a pentecostal church, and plays drums there apparently. 

My church follows the liturgical calendar roughly, and the music director and pastors meet and plan ahead so the music and the bible readings and the sermons all coordinate with each other. So the choir has their specials rehearsed ahead and typically run through the congregational hymns at rehearsal the Wednesday before and maybe before the service as well, so they can help lead the congregation especially if it's a less familiar hymn. So our bulletins also have all the hymns listed - usually it includes the lyrics for the choir anthem, and then the page numbers for the congregational hymns. During the years the church was being rebuilt after a fire, the actual hymns with music were printed in the bulletin as well, since the insurance hadn't paid for new hymnals yet. 

I print for the Catholic diocese, too, and their bulletins/programs/whatever for their special services often have the music printed in them as well. But they seem to be all unison! Our music has all 4 parts listed, and out of habit generally the first and last verses are sung in unison and the middle ones in harmony. Unless there's an extra line for a certain part, they always put those in (I'm thinking of the extra "in the morning" by the bass line in "I'll Fly Away" for example).

I'm an alto and just passable but if I'm standing with my sister or mom I'll usually sing the soprano part the whole way through because they sing the alto harmony and I like the blend. Unless we're near a strong soprano then I'll do the alto bit myself. Or if the soprano part is really high. My range isn't that great... I've sung tenor in parts of Messiah before to help fill in!

[Xan]

1 hour ago, thoughtful said:

Gary's latest about the evil X:

  Hide contents

Maybe I've gotten it wrong all these years.  Maybe instead of the Holy Spirit it's really the Father, the Son, and the Holy Duck.

[thoughtful]

3 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I was speaking to a co-worker (as we were printing the programs for a church's Christmas Eve and day services) and she said that it seemed we were printing a program for a concert not a service - her church nobody knows what they're going to sing until the pastor tells you what page to turn to. Which frankly is super odd to me!

 

3 hours ago, Alisamer said:

My church follows the liturgical calendar roughly, and the music director and pastors meet and plan ahead so the music and the bible readings and the sermons all coordinate with each other

As far as I've been able to tell, the IFB churches sing whatever the pastor and/or song leader choose. I've heard things that coordinate with the reading and message, and other choices that seem random.

At Family Baptist, congregants get to request a few songs from the songbook (I don't think they ever call it a hymnal) during some Wednesday services.

And following any semblance of the liturgical year is out, as far as I can tell, in IFB churches - the pastor reads and preaches whatever he claims God told him to read and preach.

Musically, Family Baptist seems to be treating December as Christmas Month, singing things that would have been sorted by whether they were for Advent, Christmas or Epiphany in the Episcopal church where I worked. The rest of the year, other than Easter Resurrection Sunday, the music all seems to be about salvation, the blood of Jesus, and not going to hell.

 

A new comment under Gary's most recent anti-Xmas post:

I wonder if he'll give this one a like - he'd agree with the bit about Rome being blasphemous, but it does put the "Christ" back in!

[thoughtful]

Gary gave likes to two comments after the one about "Christ-mass," but not to that one. So, something in his befuddled brain told him it was not OK. I wonder what he thought it meant, or if he couldn't figure out that Alex is just as anti-Catholic as he is.

Gary trots out another old trope of his. I think he needs to borrow some punctuation from Kaylee Hill. This makes me want to ask him what "complicated GOD" blesses - er, Blesses.

Spoiler

I wonder if Gary will have another fight with David.

[thoughtful]

Wondering no more. Gary, of course, goes into a detailed theological explanation. /s

Toby chimes in. Hey, Toby - is righteousness something you want washed off of you? I'm confused.

Spoiler

 

[thoughtful]

Gary was in church without Becky on Wednesday evening. She commented on the Facebook video to say she was watching.

The Bakers were also not there - there was a death in Mrs. Baker's family (her sister's husband, from cancer), and they were out of town for the funeral. The person leading the service says they are on their way back and hoping to get there before the service ends.

He says they have a guest speaker, Stephen Skelton. I looked him up - he is from The American Bible Project, an organization that gives reprints of the Aitken Bible to schools. According to their website:

Quote

The Aitken Bible is a King James Version of the Bible that is historically important. Historians refer to it as "The Bible of the American Revolution." As a primary source of the American Revolution, this one Bible claims three remarkable titles: 1) the only Bible approved by the United States Congress, 2) the only Bible recommended to Americans by our Founders, and subsequently, 3) the first English Bible made in America (Journals of Congress, September 12, 1782). The relevant records from the Journals of Congress are included in the Aitken Bibles we are publishing. See History section.

There's a piano solo special, and, when the camera pans back to the pulpit, lo and behold, Baker is there. The other man says something  we can't hear,  and Baker tells everyone "Brother _____ (mumble) said, 'I introduced him* but not very well.' Yeah, I heard it."

* meaning the guest speaker.

Baker is jovial as can be, downright hyper, and does a whole routine about trying to get back in time, including how he was wondering if they "had to" stay through all of the post-funeral family gathering. Somewhere in there is a matter-of-fact recitation of his brother-in-law's cause of death.

He jokes about having called to tell the man who served as song leader that he wouldn't have to do it, but says the man begged to still do it (I think that was supposed to be funny because the guy didn't actually like being song leader, but I'm not sure).

This is followed by an incredibly goofy giggle.

He says they were delayed by traffic due to an accident involving 21 vehicles, and that there were police and an ambulance. I looked it up - 2 injured, one dead, if I found the right news reports. So there is some more tragedy that doesn't seem to faze Baker as he tells the story of his attempt to get back in time for church.

I have no idea how his wife and kids feel about all of this, but it sure feels crappy to me. If they're mourning for the relative who died, and have any affection for his wife and kids, not to mention being tired from a long, emotional day and many hours in cars, I guess they just have to suck it up. David is onstage and in his element.

And, of course, he's happy to give a proper introduction for Skelton, telling how they met, how the bible is so "neat," and the exciting news that this King James bible has been authorized for use in the public schools.  😡

If I have the stomach for Skelton's presentation, I'll check it out later.

In all of this, they seem to have skipped the part of the service in which they ask for prayers, so I don't know if anyone asked prayers for Becky.