Bro Gary Hawkins 23: Give Us the History

[thoughtful]

I listened to some of last night's service at Family Baptist (why do I do these things?).

After some songs and a prayer, Baker tells them to be seated, and his wife comes up. He doesn't acknowledge her (that's not so unusual - in their services, vocalists, especially Baker's family members, often just come up and get into position). But they don't make eye contact and they look like this as he goes to sit down:

Spoiler

 

She is one of the two piano pounders for the church, and always looks sad and fragile. I could be reading way too much into it, but it seems to me that there is an unpleasant vibe between them.  She always follows dutifully behind him, looking down, as he strides quickly down the aisle, when they recess after church. Screenshots from the end of this service, for example:

Spoiler

    

Then again, she could just be exhausted from having and raising eleven children, being a pastor's wife and the pianist for the church. And her pale coloring probably adds to the sense that she looks fragile.

For all I know, she could be a gleefully hateful child-beater, no better than her slimy spouse.

She chirps Sweet Little Jesus Boy in a strained, childlike voice.

She walks away and Baker comes back.

Spoiler

He says, without any enthusiasm, "Look forward t'that every year. Mrs. Hyles used to sing that uh every year and look forward t'that, beautiful."

After another song and greetings (Gary hovers over Becky), it's time for the Sunday evening blessing-fest.

A man says he has been working two jobs, and, at one of them, two departments have been "kinda fightin' over me, over who wants t'have me and keep me."

I put Baker's response in a spoiler, in case anyone wants to guess.

Spoiler

He pretends to be the two departments heads: "Like, we don't want him! We don't want him either! We don't want him! We don't want him either!"

If you can't be original, at least be kind, dickwad - you're supposed to be a pastor.

The man said he's going to the department he wants to be in, with a raise, and, while he'd started the story by saying God had been good to him, he actually credits a person who works there with helping to make that happen.

Baker makes a joke about the raise. Wanna guess?

Spoiler

"Wife's more excited than you, like 'Yeah, that's more money to spend, uhhhh save'."

He calls on Becky - oh, excuse me - Rebecca. She says she'd said this in Sunday School (I guess they also do blessings then - there are never videos of that service), but made a mistake. "It's been eleven years, and not ten years, since I've been able to put up my own Christmas decorations"
Baker (interrupting): Awesome.
Becky Rebecca: Which is amazing and, um, three of - our children have said they're comin' for Christmas"
Baker (interrupting): Wowww!
Rebecca: "So that's exciting."

Gee, I wonder which three of (hesitation) "their" children are coming?

She sounds so excited to be somewhere that she can put up decorations - she really hated being on the road.

More later, if I can stand it.

Edited December 5, 2023 by thoughtful
riffle

[thoughtful]

23 minutes ago, Xan said:

I think Gary would be easy to brainwash.  If you had the right man talking and he sounded religious, Gary would eat it up.  Brainwashing some people would be like laundering a pair of overalls that are covered in grease, mud, and ink stains.  Washing Gary's brain would be like laundering a napkin that was soiled with a few cracker crumbs.

He is well and truly brainwashed - Baker is just adding to the mix.

To continue your metaphor, I don't think Gary's brain even needed washing - just a quick shake to get the crumbs of reality out of there.

[thoughtful]

Gary's latest - they are x out CHRIST out:

Here is a picture of Jesus, reining:

Spoiler

Comments:

Spoiler

Tony, it's no use. Gary won't understand.

[Alisamer]

2 hours ago, thoughtful said:

Gary's latest - they are x out CHRIST out:

Here is a picture of Jesus, reining:

  Reveal hidden contents

Comments:

  Hide contents

Tony, it's no use. Gary won't understand.

I'm honestly kind of surprised they haven't tried taking the "mass" out of Christmas, considering how suspicious many fundies are of Catholics. 

[SisterCupcake]

3 hours ago, thoughtful said:

Gary's latest - they are x out CHRIST out:

Here is a picture of Jesus, reining:

  Hide contents

Comments:

  Hide contents

Tony, it's no use. Gary won't understand.

I can't be the only one who used to think reign was rain in the song with the lyrics "My God, is an awesome God, he reigns, from heaven above"

It took me years to untangle that one! And I can still clearly see an image of God in little water droplets slowly falling to the earth...

[thoughtful]

37 minutes ago, SisterCupcake said:

I can't be the only one who used to think reign was rain in the song with the lyrics "My God, is an awesome God, he reigns, from heaven above"

It took me years to untangle that one! And I can still clearly see an image of God in little water droplets slowly falling to the earth...

Fred Gwynne (who played Herman Munster) wrote children's books about homonyms, and one was The King Who Rained. The cover is not quite the same as your mental image of God, since the king himself stays up.

https://www.amazon.com/King-Who-Rained-Fred-Gwynne/dp/0671667440

The error I see most frequently is the opposite of the one Gary made in his post. People write "free reign" instead of "free rein."

I can understand how that one happens, since imagining that someone gets to do what they want can imply that they run roughshod and rule over others. But it's rein, as in letting a horse choose where to go.

ETA:  Another commenter has tried to make Gary understand about the X:

Spoiler

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by thoughtful

[thoughtful]

What, Gary? No comment blaming Joe Bahden?

[thoughtful]

The economic experts weigh in under Gary's toilet paper post:

[thoughtful]

Gary has answered one of the comments trying to explain XMas to him. I think he left out the word "time" in the first sentence.

Gary, you live in the place of English - time has nothing to do with it. While I grant that the Koine Greek of the bible is not spoken any more, there is nothing inherently outdated about either Hebrew or Greek.

Also, you're a big baby, not admitting that you had no idea why people do it.

He's on a roll tonight (and he still hasn't seemed to notice that Morgan Freeman wears earrings.

Spoiler

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by thoughtful
riffle

[Expectopatronus]

Does Gary also think that the fish is disrespectful? Are all ancient symbols for Christ wrong or just X? I’m not sure that Gary could be brainwashed as I’m not convinced he has a brain to wash. 

[Ozlsn]

15 hours ago, SisterCupcake said:

I can't be the only one who used to think reign was rain in the song with the lyrics "My God, is an awesome God, he reigns, from heaven above"

It took me years to untangle that one! And I can still clearly see an image of God in little water droplets slowly falling to the earth...

For literally years after singing the (then) national anthem in kindergarten my mental image of Queen Elizabeth II was a black thundercloud with her face, a string of pearls and a tiara.

I also had trouble with "send her victorious" - Victoria's what? We lived in a rural area, so we had a lot of stone fruit... would that do?

Edited December 6, 2023 by Ozlsn

[Alisamer]

12 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

Does Gary also think that the fish is disrespectful? Are all ancient symbols for Christ wrong or just X? I’m not sure that Gary could be brainwashed as I’m not convinced he has a brain to wash. 

I think that question would confuse the heck out of Gary. I just don't think he can manage any thoughts that aren't 100% black or white, no shades of gray for Gary. He doesn't seem able to understand nuances or allowing for circumstances or any sort of thinking that isn't just "it Bible." 

Today he's on about X-mas, which is a perfectly valid traditional shortening of "Christmas". And it seems pretty ironic that someone who insists the only proper version of the Bible is from 1611 ALSO declares that since he's not living in ancient times the shortening of Christmas is disrespectful. Despite that the Bible was written down in that time and before.

So since he's not living in the time/place of Hebrew and Greek, their abbreviations are disrespectful. BUT he declares we are all to live by the rules of the... ancient Hebrews and Greeks. Because they are who wrote down much of the Bible. And that the language of the Elizabethans in England is God's chosen language for his words, despite that being only a translation. But he's not living in the time of Elizabethan English... so?

And I'd be afraid if somoeone tried to wash his brain - those two cells rattling around in there might rinse right out!

 

[thoughtful]

Alan bravely keeps trying (previous comments included for context):

Alan, Gary don't need no sciencifical terms - he will tell you he only speaks "hillbilly," which ain't got no Greek or Hebrew or weird things like Tagalong or Swat-heelee or Portyourgeese in it.

Edited December 7, 2023 by thoughtful
missing word

[Xan]

And now isn't "the time of English" unless you live in English speaking countries.  

All Gary knows is that some preacher at some time in the past remarked that using X instead of Christ in Christmas was lazy and disrespectful.  He's already saved that in some remote corner of his mostly empty brain.  He would prefer not to have to retrieve it and think about it again.  He probably still doesn't like some food from his childhood because he decided at three that he didn't like the taste.  Once a thing is decided, Gary moves on.

[AmazonGrace]

Gary, Christ IS a Greek word. Comes from Khristos.

Also, stupid is a Latin word.

Edited December 7, 2023 by AmazonGrace

[thoughtful]

Becky and Gary were in church last night. Neither of them got out of their seats during the greeting.

Someone asks for prayers for his sister who has Covid for the fourth time.

BIble study was from Exodus, and how it's all actually about Jesus and the hard Christian life, in which you must make a stand. He quizzes them about previous lessons.

At one point, he is trying to describe the original Hebrew spelling and pronunciations of a place mentioned in Exodus 16:1:

Quote

And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.

He says that "wilderness of Sin" sounds "interesting," (I guess he's trying to say it has nothing to do with the English word sin, although he never really makes that connection), but says it should be pronounced "sine," like the math term.

Then he goes on to say: That wilderness of sine is a Hebrew letter that was named and so, uh, how many have seen, like, the Hebrew letter that has three - David, how do you do that gang sign? Is that right? Yeah, David's good at that. And, uh - he was a kid growin' up in the bus route, he learned how to flash -"

He launches into an imitation of a conversation he supposedly had with his son (that's the David he's addressing), when he was a kid.

"What are you doing? 'Yeah they taught me on the bus, how to flash the gang sign.' I said, 'Stop that! You're gonna get killed or something.'"

Gotta bash those bus kids.

The visuals are a hoot, as he twists his hand around, and ends up flipping his congregation the bird:

Spoiler

  

He then goes on to try to describe the Hebrew letter, getting it completely wrong, both in his description of the letter and the two sounds it can make, and even conflating whole words with letters. He tells them "I had Hebrew in college, and don't remember much from it."

No kidding. Details under spoiler, if anyone is curious.

Spoiler

The letter he's discussing is ש . If it has a dot over the "arm" on the right, it is pronounced "sh," if the dot is over the left one, it is pronounced "s."

That's all you needed to say, Dave, not that it has anything to do with your sermon. You said it was the vowel sound that changed, not the consonant.

Maybe he thinks it has something to do with the word in Exodus because the name of the letter is sin (if it is pronounced with an "s" sound - shin if it is pronounced "sh").

Who knows?

But wait - there's more! I looked up that verse in the original Hebrew, and the name of the wilderness is סִין. That would be pronounced more like "Seen," (so, neither "sin" nor "sine"), and it starts with a different letter that also makes the "s" sound, so the letter shin (or  sin) is not even involved.

ETA - during the dismissal, someone says something to Gary that cracks him up.

Spoiler

   

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by thoughtful

[AmazonGrace]

Oh Gary's pastor was wrong? Say it isn't so.

 

[Black Aliss]

On 12/7/2023 at 7:26 AM, Xan said:

And now isn't "the time of English" unless you live in English speaking countries.  

Which, TBF, Gary does. I hate to think how he might go off on people speaking a language other than English within his hearing.

Quote

All Gary knows is that some preacher at some time in the past remarked that using X instead of Christ in Christmas was lazy and disrespectful.  He's already saved that in some remote corner of his mostly empty brain.  He would prefer not to have to retrieve it and think about it again.  He probably still doesn't like some food from his childhood because he decided at three that he didn't like the taste.  Once a thing is decided, Gary moves on.

Might have been Herbert W. Armstrong, who would have been before Gary's time, but not before Danny's. My mother hung on HWA's every word, and I can remember her firm belief that Xmas meant Tenth Mass. And one of her favorite recordings was George Beverly Shea singing Put Christ Back into Christmas, the lyrics of which begin "Don't wish me Merry Xmas or Happy Holidays". She was righteously indignant when someone attempted to explain to her that Xmas is Greek for "Christ is sent". My mother had that classic fundie right-wing attitude of "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts".

[thoughtful]

1 hour ago, Black Aliss said:

I hate to think how he might go off on people speaking a language other than English within his hearing.

I don't think he'd say anything negative to them or within their earshot - he's too much of a coward.

Based on past experience, I'd say he might attempt to sound inclusive while clearly being uncomfortable, as he does when discussing the multicultural church he visited in Chicago.

He might joke about how he could learn their language if you gave him 20 years, as he does at the Navajo churches.

We can hear that, with both of those, he's treating non-English speakers as lesser people, outsiders, but he thinks he's being friendly.

But he might have a lot of nasty things to say afterward. He might be indignant that everyone doesn't just speak English, similar to his complaint that he has to "mash" the button to choose English for some voice mail systems.

[Alisamer]

I agree, I get the impression Gary is a "This is America, speak English!" guy online, and maybe in the pulpit among an all-white congregation, but in person he's not likely to say anything intentionally offensive. Accidentally offensive, sure, but not intentionally, I think.

The area of NC he's from seems to have less of a hispanic population than the areas nearer the cities, but there is still a presence. In Charlotte there are a couple of neighborhoods where most of the shops have signs only in Spanish. Even in the tiny suburb town I live in a "Tiendita" just opened at the end of my road! I haven't been in to check it out, yet, but I plan to sometime. I like checking out snacks from other cultures, LOL! And if they have Doña Pepa cookies I'll be there regularly I think.

[thoughtful]

Gary and Becky were in church this morning. She sat and he hovered near her during the greeting. I don't think I've posted yet about why that seems worth mentioning.

In this church, almost everybody really moves around throughout the entire room, shaking hands, bumping elbows (I guess a few people don't want to catch anything, though I've never seen anyone masked), and cheerfully greeting one another. They do it before the service, as well as at the greeting. People go out of their way to come to anyone who is not leaving their seat.

Now and then, a person will come over to Becky, and a few men will shmooze with Gary, but they often are just there, alone and awkward. I don't know if they're not fitting in, or what.

Something occurred to me about Gary's latest anti-TV post. The "What if I told you" meme is a reference to The Matrix (although it's a Mandela effect thing - there is no such line in the film).

But the character in The Matrix was played by Laurence Fishburne.

 

I would be willing to bet that Gary's crowd thinks that Laurence Fishburne, Morgan Freeman, Samuel L. Jackson, James Earl Jones and (despite being dead for nine years) Geoffrey Holder are all the same person - just that generic black guy with the deep voice who narrates stuff.

Edited December 10, 2023 by thoughtful
adding detail

[thoughtful]

Becky and Gary were in church tonight. "Blessings, neat, special, good, encouraging" included:

 - a man who said he was able to show a young coworker how to get to heaven, because, when some orders came in, another, already-saved coworker took over, so he was free to, as he put it, "finish witnessin', and laden" this person. Pastor says "Wow." The man goes on to say that, when he thanked the saved coworker, that man praised him and said, "You were workin'. I was just taking care of the little stuff, you were doing work." I think they should all have been doing their jobs, but what do I know?

- two women "got to show the grandmaw of a bus kid how to go to heaven yesterday." Pastor says that one of the "side blessings" of the bus ministry is that "the kids get you in the door to witness to everybody else."

- someone else (I think it's one of Baker's kids) says he and his mom got to go soul winning (captions say "someone in" for soul winning - that's a new one). The captions also have this to say about his claim that he was "able to lead one man to the Lord:"

Spoiler

Baker adds that "they met some Calvinists out and uhhhhh, then they wanna debate, and OK, you're not gonna get it."

Well, I think he said "get it," the captions think it's:

Spoiler

Either way, Baker is dismissing Calvinists as not worth arguing with, I guess.
 

 

[thoughtful]

I listened to some of Baker's sermon from tonight's service, which was about sexual sin.

After setting up the usual Adam and Eve reason for marriage between one man and one woman, no sex outside of it, and God being against fornication, he acknowledges that it's an embarrassing subject, and that they all feel awkward. But he says it needs to be preached, adding something about looking at his outline and thinking, "Really God?" So of course he is claiming that God wants him to preach this.

He goes on to talk about characters in the bible who committed "sexual sin." Then he gets to modern day issues. He claims "There are people that say independent, fundamental, Baptist churches have a problem with this, over everybody else. There have been multiple things, over the years, that have pushed and promoted that, ummmm, because," (he chuckles) "Satan looks at, OK, tell me, how many churches are trying to win souls, and show people how to go to heaven?"

He goes on for a few sentences about how other churches don't witness, don't show people how to get to heaven, and may not even believe it. He says the devil attacks the IFB churches so people will leave and stop saving souls.

Then he starts listing sexual scandals from other denominations. He says the recent list from the Southern Baptist churches found 703 abusers. But that doesn't mean they are worse than anyone else, just that "we are all flesh, and able to be tempted."

He lists pastors molesting people and having affairs, in non-denominational and Methodist churches, then a long recitation of statistics about abuse in Presbyterian churches. One of the things he says is that a pastor "confessed to abusing the men and boys in the congregation with sexual foot massages. I don't get that one. Ummmm, I'm sorry, I don't understand that."

After a break to read 1 Timothy 4:1 and the first few words of 4:3:

Quote

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

and

Forbidding to marry

He asks where do you find that? "They forbid their preachers to marry? What group is that?" He points out that forbidding preachers to marry is not in the bible.

"There's this old joke, and it's bad, but uh, I already started it, so uh . . . "

No, Dave, you haven't already started it.

"So anyway, so, this Catholic priest went to heaven - that's debatable - but anyway, Catholic priest went to heaven."

He blunders through the joke about the Catholic priest reading old scrolls in heaven's library, and screaming when he realized that a scribe made a mistake and it says "celebrate," not "celibate." He tells it incredibly badly.

He goes on about the many sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic church, then on to teachers. This long list of people from non-IFB organizations sexually abusing people goes on for about 13 minutes.

We get it, Dave.

But he does acknowledge that even the saved can be "tempted," and that old age doesn't make it go away. He tells a story about a "faithful preacher" in his 70s who'd lived without TV while raising his kids, so they wouldn't be tempted, but finally got a TV and a cable package, to watch football. He goes on to say that the man was horrified at first by something he saw while scrolling through channels (something sexual, I assume), then kept lingering on that content more and more, until "he did something and they arrested him and he went to prison."

Well, that was vague.

He returns to the bible, reading various bits of advice about how to avoid temptation. He gives them many details about how he avoids any hint of scandal with the women of the church, in order to "flee fornication."

He tells a story about a woman, new to the congregation, who came to his office for counseling, acting "weird," who said she was too embarrassed to say what was on her mind, so he gave her a 3x5 card to write down what she was thinking, and he said that, on the card, she "propositioned me for an intimate sexual act. In my office. Written down on a card."

He says he yelled at her to get out, called for his secretary to take her out and never give her an appointment again, and called his wife to tell her what had happened. He never saw the woman again.

Yeah, but did you throw away the card, Dave?

When talking about trying to keep a pure mind, he tells them that his first paying job was as a lifeguard: "I got paid to look at girls who weren't dressed right. They paid me to do that. That's not a good thing to put up in your brain."

But, at bible college, he tried to clear his mind of all of those images, focus on God, and have nothing to do with girls. One day he prayed and told God he thought he was ready to meet the woman he would marry. And the next day he saw "a young lady," and "in my spirit God said, 'That's the one. That's her.'" And they've been married for 33 and a half years.

Citation needed, Dave.

He goes on with more advice from the bible that he claims will keep them from sexual sin. He warns them about friendships turning into affairs because couples got too close to other couples, or because women foolishly thought they could have a friendship with a man, "until the one day when you let your guard down, and he's looking for an opportunity."

Then comes a story about a man who worked for Lester Roloff (who Baker describes as "a wonderful man of God" 🤮 ), who backslid, got a secular job, fell in with the wrong crowd and left his wife and children. Because, I guess, that's what happens when you get a secular job. 🤷‍♀️

He never hugs women. "OK, sometimes I get accosted." He imitates how stiffly he stands, arms by his side, when someone hugs him, until they realize he's not hugging back. "OK, get the hint - I don't hug women."

Spoiler

He never flirts with women, except for old ladies at the nursing home, because his wife says it's OK. But he says it wasn't really flirting, but teasing them "mercilessly." His example: an old woman "80-85, in a wheelchair" asked him to say something nice to her (because he usually teased her mercilessly), and he said "You don't look near as bad today as you did yesterday." He says she and the ladies around her "busted out laughing."

He defends his practice of helping "fallen" men and their families, with a brief mention of how people should also help their victims.

During the altar call, he throws out more advice about staying pure in mind and fleeing fornication.

After the altar call and another round of explaining why he had to give this embarrassing sermon, he asks who thought that the temperature in church was comfortable. After they've raised their hands, he says "Tryin' t'see all the people with a cold heart, so we have to make it so hot so they can be comfortable."

He complains that it's so hot that "I'm dyin,'" then asks for a show of hands from those who thought it was too hot. Childishly, he says, "See, look around!" And then asks his son to dismiss them in prayer.

tl:dr - everyone accuses the IFB of having the most sexually abusive clergy, but that's the devil targeting them because they are saving souls, also whataboutism. Men are all tempted, because flesh and sin nature.

[Dana723]

50 minutes ago, thoughtful said:

Then he starts listing sexual scandals from other denominations. He says the recent list from the Southern Baptist churches found 703 abusers. But that doesn't mean they are worse than anyone else, just that "we are all flesh, and able to be tempted."

 

#NotADragQueen  That drives me crazy.  He's exactly the kind of person to accuse a drag queen of grooming and sexually abusing children, but it's never a drag queen, always a church leader.

[thoughtful]

8 hours ago, Dana723 said:

That drives me crazy.  He's exactly the kind of person to accuse a drag queen of grooming and sexually abusing children, but it's never a drag queen, always a church leader.

One of the things that struck me about this sermon was that it was all about churched people (mostly male). And they were all falling, sinning, giving in to the temptation of the flesh (mostly female).

He may, like Gary, not even bother mentioning secular folks at all, since The World is going to do what The World does, and he's only there to chastise his fellow Christians. The "unsaved" may all be fornicators and drunks, in his mind.

He sees IFB people as being so separate and special that it doesn't seem to occur to him that listing all of those scandals and crimes just makes Christianity look bad.

Of course, they are only separate and special because of the advice of people like him, listing all of those ways to keep your mind pure and flee fornication.

And, of course, his claim that IFB churches get accused of sexual abuse and scandal more than any other is bizarre. Whether he believes that or not, telling his congregation that was just the usual persecution ploy.