Josh and Anna 55: Settling in at Seagoville

[Giraffe]

On 6/29/2022 at 8:25 AM, Cam said:

And most crimes are never solved? Why so many filled prisons if that’s the case? 

Read: The New Jim Crow. 

[BensAllergies]

A lot of people in jail are technically innocent because they are waiting for trial.   There was a story from a few years ago about a teenager, Kalief Browder, who was wrongly accused of stealing a backpack. He spent 3 years in Riker’s waiting for a trial because his family couldn’t afford to bail him out. He ended up committing suicide around age 22.

Josh Duggar is damn lucky that he had comfortable digs while awaiting his fair and speedy trial. If only every person accused of a non-violent crime had that privilege. Of course people like the Duggars would complain about any perceived unfairness impacting their own while turning a blind eye to actual unjust treatment of others.

Edited July 1, 2022 by BensAllergies

[Father Son Holy Goat]

23 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

The Duggars were my gateway fundies many years ago and are why I ended up on Free Jinger. To see the spectacular fall of the House of Duggar is both satisfying and heartbreaking, because of the heinous crimes Josh committed that brought it all down.

My family of origin was shitty, and I fantasized about being in a large and loving home like the Duggars seemingly had. Now I feel sympathy for the sisters who had to live with their pervert brother, and how they probably never felt safe or relaxed in their own home. It was all bullshit presented to the public by Jim Bob.

I knew something was wrong with Josh when he performed hand sex on Anna. And as for Anna? Fuck her through and through. To stay and support that sick bastard is first-class delusion and shows zero empathy for his victims. She's smug too.  Hate her. And Jim Bob. And Michelle.

Let's see how he does the next decade, I don't think he'll be able to do the time. But he's right where he ought to be.

My introduction to the Duggars was similar, I though I was watching a loving if eccentric family in contrast to my abusive one. 
 

I also don’t see Josh doing well in prison. I looked up some information on Seagonville and a few things stand out to me. 

1. The Warden is a woman. Josh’s new headship is a woman. I can’t see him acting respectfully towards a woman. 
2. Breakfast is at 6:00am. I don’t remember him as an early riser. 
3. Twelve hour workdays. Considering his workday consisted of looking at child sexual abuse images and occasionally selling a car this will be a rude awakening.
4. Commissary limits. He’s limited on how much he can spend at the commissary per month. No more unlimited junk food.
5. Other people with other beliefs. The fundamentalist bubble has popped, Josh will be rubbing elbows with people who have other beliefs. Ironically, he’ll probably be exposed to more diversity in prison than his life before.
6. No conjugal visits. Anna will be disappointed.
7. Belts are standard issue. Perhaps it’s my background in psych hospitals but I was shocked they are given belts. Someone could easily use it to commit suicide. 
    

The full introduction packet is here: https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/sea/SEA_fci_aohandbook.pdf

[neuroticcat]

1 hour ago, Giraffe said:

 

Also, as I am learning, some people are in jail b/c of plea deals. Just b/c someone is imprisoned doesn’t mean the crime was solved. 

Edited July 1, 2022 by neuroticcat

[libgirl2]

6 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

My introduction to the Duggars was similar, I though I was watching a loving if eccentric family in contrast to my abusive one. 
 

I also don’t see Josh doing well in prison. I looked up some information on Seagonville and a few things stand out to me. 

1. The Warden is a woman. Josh’s new headship is a woman. I can’t see him acting respectfully towards a woman. 
2. Breakfast is at 6:00am. I don’t remember him as an early riser. 
3. Twelve hour workdays. Considering his workday consisted of looking at child sexual abuse images and occasionally selling a car this will be a rude awakening.
4. Commissary limits. He’s limited on how much he can spend at the commissary per month. No more unlimited junk food.
5. Other people with other beliefs. The fundamentalist bubble has popped, Josh will be rubbing elbows with people who have other beliefs. Ironically, he’ll probably be exposed to more diversity in prison than his life before.
6. No conjugal visits. Anna will be disappointed.
7. Belts are standard issue. Perhaps it’s my background in psych hospitals but I was shocked they are given belts. Someone could easily use it to commit suicide. 
    

The full introduction packet is here: https://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/sea/SEA_fci_aohandbook.pdf

I know someone who was in jail for selling drugs. Lifelong Catholic. While in jail, he converted to Islam because it "kept him safer". He is very short and probably looked like an easy mark. 

[Antimony]

39 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

My introduction to the Duggars was similar, I though I was watching a loving if eccentric family in contrast to my abusive one. 
 

I also don’t see Josh doing well in prison. I looked up some information on Seagonville and a few things stand out to me. 

1. The Warden is a woman. Josh’s new headship is a woman. I can’t see him acting respectfully towards a woman. 

A lot of folks have pointed this out, but I'm skeptical that it'll matter. Not because I think Josh respects women, but because I doubt he'll see much of the warden. It's like...the principal. They're there, but on a day-to-day basis, the teacher impacts more of one's life. I think the bigger factor, and a much more random one, will be each individual COs.

Some prisons have women COs for men's pods but I'm not sure if Seagoville does or not. 

[waltraute]

2 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

Josh Duggar is damn lucky that he had comfortable digs while awaiting his fair and speedy trial. If only every person accused of a non-violent crime had that privilege. Of course people like the Duggars would complain about any perceived unfairness impacting their own while turning a blind eye to actual unjust treatment of others.

And this is a big flaw with the system as it stands now. It is not a level playing field. Being rich means a better legal team and more perks before, during, and after incarceration. 

[BlackberryGirl]

About 35 years ago our local cops arrested a 16 year old boy for stuffing a potato into the exhaust of a police car.  He committed suicide in the county jail. 
 

People bitch and bitch about bail reform in NY, but the purpose of bail is to insure appearance at trial. So many people are arrested for minor crimes and can’t make bail, and then spend longer waiting for trial than they would get for a sentence.

just being in jail dosn’t mean you’re guilty.  And everyone is subject to the same draconian rules. Is it ok to punish someone for being arrested? 

another example from this area. A kid, 16 killed his stepfather who had been horribly abusing him. The killing way during yet another beating. After the boy was aquitted people were angry he wasn’t put on probation… WTF! He wasn’t guilty, probation is for people who have people who have been convicted of a crime.

before you think I’m some bleeding heart liberal (which I am, but that’s not the point,) Blackberry Boy was a police officer, a good one and I’ve seen how the system works.

[dawbs]

4 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

A lot of people in jail are technically innocent because they are waiting for trial.   There was a story from a few years ago about a teenager, Kalief Browder, who was wrongly accused of stealing a backpack. He spent 3 years in Riker’s waiting for a trial because his family couldn’t afford to bail him out. He ended up committing suicide around age 22.

One of my uncle spent the better part of 2 years, during the middle of the pandemic, in jail, held without bail,  awaiting trial. (Don't get me wrong, he's probably guilty and belongs there- it's just... there were extenuating circumstances and he hadn't been found guilty of anything! Also, they said he was a danger (possibly correctly)  but since then, they dismissed all charges and he's wandering around without a record.) 

If that's what happens to an elderly, well respected, no criminal history, middle class white guy? The rest of us are really screwed. 

[HeartsAFundie]

I am finding this prison conversation extremely fascinating and educational, especially the emails for profit.  I never really thought of the prison email system as being exploited for profit and that was certainly an eye-opener, so thank you for that bit of knowledge.

In my county, the House of Correction has inmate work crews.  The inmates on the crew are usually ones in pre-release status or darn close to it, in other words, "the cream of the crop".  Not only do they learn skills to help them in the working world, but they also get to shave time off their sentence for every month they are in the crew.  One year this inmate crew painted the entire interior of my son's Catholic grammar school, and they were commissioned to paint an elderly housing development in the county which was a featured newspaper story.  One of the things that stood out to me in the newspaper article was how one elderly woman baked chocolate chip cookies for the crew and gave each inmate a couple in a plastic bag.   One of the inmates actually cried when he got his plastic cookie bag, telling the woman that this was the first time he ever received his own homemade baked goods, just for him.   I hope this inmate was able to complete his sentence and live a better and improved life. 

The story above happened around 2008-2009, but here's a 2019 article about the work crew program:

https://www.thesunchronicle.com/features/stories/working-time-inmates-at-bristol-county-house-of-corrections-who-volunteer-for-program-say-experience/article_a80e83c4-273c-51e8-be35-bc3951e25cbb.html   

 

 

 

[Jackie3]

10 hours ago, dawbs said:

If that's what happens to an elderly, well respected, no criminal history, middle class white guy? The rest of us are really screwed. 

We're screwed anyway, because they are releasing criminals into society. Your uncle was probably guilty and probably dangerous? It's a shame he's out in society again, where he can harm people.

13 hours ago, waltraute said:

And this is a big flaw with the system as it stands now. It is not a level playing field. Being rich means a better legal team and more perks before, during, and after incarceration. 

While this is true, Josh's legal team didn't seem to help him much. He got a fair, pretty severe sentence--despite being rich and white.

13 hours ago, Antimony said:

A lot of folks have pointed this out, but I'm skeptical that it'll matter. Not because I think Josh respects women, but because I doubt he'll see much of the warden.

Exactly. Why would Josh be seeing the warden? The warden probably is in her office, doing paperwork, not messing with the likes of Josh. 

Even if Josh interacted with the warden, he is likely to be courteous because he doesn't want more trouble. The guy's not an idiot. He knows how to show insincere respect  if he needs to.

[imokit]

Lets not forget that there is truth to Anna blaming the women and the gays for Josh's jail time.  It was a female agent who found the CSAM and passed it up the chain.

The lead prosecutor was gay and there was also a female prosecutor. 

The women and gay folk have been hitting him hard lately!

[backyard sylph]

I don't have time to really enter into this conversation just now, other than to agree with everything Antimony writes, but something struck me as odd, I saw it here and elsewhere recently; the idea that going to prison is what stops people from robbing banks or committing other serious crimes. 

That's like when some of these fundies say we'd all go around being really terrible to each other if not for the threat of Hell. 

As if morality, possibly ethics, only exists because of a punitive threat. 

Most of us don't do bad stuff because we think it's bad to do. Yet many of us are afraid of punishment for things like being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or accusing someone more powerful than us or looking a certain way to "law enforcement," because we've seen that happen; we know it happens all of the time. 

The people who want to do the bad stuff (by which I mean stuff that we all agree is bad, like hurting someone else,) aren't stopped because of a law or a threat of punishment. Even in elementary school, the rules didn't matter to the kids who wanted to misbehave, only to the ones who mostly never would. 

Incidental law breakers are often caught in the web that purposeful law breakers mostly ignore or work to get around. 

And finally, in the case of the insurrectionists, they believed the lies they were fed that their ideals needed to be protected through threat of violence. They saw themselves as the heroes; of course they didn't think they'd be in real trouble, because the nominal leader of our country was on their side. It's a grotesque situation created by the very people who'd cheer the stomping on of a guy arrested for selling a few loose cigarettes on the street.  

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

2 hours ago, backyard sylph said:

I don't have time to really enter into this conversation just now, other than to agree with everything Antimony writes, but something struck me as odd, I saw it here and elsewhere recently; the idea that going to prison is what stops people from robbing banks or committing other serious crimes. 

That's like when some of these fundies say we'd all go around being really terrible to each other if not for the threat of Hell. 

As if morality, possibly ethics, only exists because of a punitive threat. 

Most of us don't do bad stuff because we think it's bad to do. Yet many of us are afraid of punishment for things like being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or accusing someone more powerful than us or looking a certain way to "law enforcement," because we've seen that happen; we know it happens all of the time. 

The people who want to do the bad stuff (by which I mean stuff that we all agree is bad, like hurting someone else,) aren't stopped because of a law or a threat of punishment. Even in elementary school, the rules didn't matter to the kids who wanted to misbehave, only to the ones who mostly never would. 

Incidental law breakers are often caught in the web that purposeful law breakers mostly ignore or work to get around. 

And finally, in the case of the insurrectionists, they believed the lies they were fed that their ideals needed to be protected through threat of violence. They saw themselves as the heroes; of course they didn't think they'd be in real trouble, because the nominal leader of our country was on their side. It's a grotesque situation created by the very people who'd cheer the stomping on of a guy arrested for selling a few loose cigarettes on the street.  

All good points and I'd also add that most people don't really understand exactly how bad prison is. Like I intellectually understand I probably wouldn't like it but I'm sure there is a lot I haven't considered and don't know. Most people probably haven't read/watched in-depth prison memoirs or seen it first hand so don't really get it. So it's not exactly an effective deterrent.

Additionally, there are unhoused people who may choose jail/prison as a shelter. (I don't know how common this is but you hear anecdotes about it.)

 

[SilverBeach]

On 6/30/2022 at 1:46 PM, Freejin said:

What do you mean you don’t think he’ll be able to do the time?

"Doing time" is a colloquial phrase. I have a first degree relative who was a career criminal. He had many accounts of men who could not "do the time", meaning they could not settle down and adjust to the reality of prison life and culture, and become to some degree, institutionalized. These men would either have nervous breakdowns and need to be transferred to a mental health facility,  attempt to harm themselves, or be subject to harsh discipline for not being able to get along with other inmates and causing disturbances.

"Successful" prisoners develop a plan for how they will do their time, be it by furthering their education, focusing on body building, or some other productive activity. Some prisoners come to rely on the structure of institutional life so much that they cannot function o the outside, ala The Shawshank Redemption librarian character. They are the polar opposite of those who cannot do their time or who struggle.

Josh Duggar, convicted pedophile, is in my opinion, a weak man who has been coddled all his life. There's no coddling in prison. He's got substantial time to serve, and likely thought his daddy would get him off or he would have taken a plea deal. It probably has not really sunken in yet that incarceration is his life for the next ten years. When it does, I think it will be very, very difficult for him to adjust.

As a black person, I have many thoughts about the school to prison pipeline, the so called criminal justice system, and other aspects of policing, too much to go into here. Humane treatment of incarcerated folks, along with taking care of those who cannot care for themselves, are the hallmarks of a civilized society.

But some folks cannot be rehabilitated, and should never be released back into society if they manage to land behind bars. Other people should not be there in the first place, such as those convicted of  minor drug crimes under the failed "war on drugs". Particularly since the USA was the biggest drug dealer responsible for the crack epidemic, oh the hypocrisy, and now folks are getting rich off of legal weed. Not surprisingly, the corner boys in jail for selling nickel bags of course are mostly black, and the weed entrepreneurs are mostly white.  System inequities are massive.

As a CSA victim, I do think that sex crime perpetrators cannot be rehabilitated unless they permit extreme measures to be taken. I have no illusions about the American way of justice, which is rife with injustice. For-profit prisons are definitely not the answer. But the most dangerous among us need to be kept out of society at large.

That's enough for today, hope my clarification was adequate.

Edited July 2, 2022 by SilverBeach
add paragraph break, spelling

[Cam]

One of the most powerful autobiographies I’ve ever read is Long Way Home by Cameron Douglas, son of actor Michael Douglas. He spent 7 years in federal prison on drug charges; two of those years were in solitary confinement. His book is honest, frank and compelling. Of course I read Orange is the New Black by Piper Kerman a couple years before the Netflix series. Piper spent 13 months in a women’s minimum security prison; the book is fascinatingly insightful. (Even Martha Stewart’s account of her time in prison was an interesting read). Another powerful book is Redemption by Stacey Lannert who served prison time for shooting and and killing her father after ten years of his violent sexual abuse of her.

Then there is Just Mercy, by lawyer Bryan Stevenson who details the injustices that occur in the United States' criminal justice system. He describes his work for marginalized clients, including efforts to overturn and ban mandatory life sentences without parole given to defendants convicted of crimes committed as juveniles. He also covers the abuse of power by police, judges and prosecutors in the criminal justice system. Hopeful and heartbreaking. The book won awards, stayed on the bestseller list for years and was made into a movie.

I’ve toured two closed penitentiaries a couple years apart, both with very storied pasts. It’s hard to describe the feelings that stayed with me long after visiting the first one; creepy, claustrophobic, uncomfortable darkness that did not leave for several months. I tried ridding myself of the feelings but could not shake them. It was like an assault on my psyche. The second penitentiary was the Ohio State Reformatory, featured in Shawshank Redemption. Again, after the visit, the same feelings descended upon me, staying for months. I’d never had kind of reaction to something before. I do not think I will tour any more former prisons.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Cam

[Antimony]

Piper Kerman is also, evident from her Twitter presence, a prison abolitionist.

(She also did some great PR work for an organization I worked for in getting us some incredible donations.)

[HeartsAFundie]

2 hours ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

All good points and I'd also add that most people don't really understand exactly how bad prison is. Like I intellectually understand I probably wouldn't like it but I'm sure there is a lot I haven't considered and don't know. Most people probably haven't read/watched in-depth prison memoirs or seen it first hand so don't really get it. So it's not exactly an effective deterrent.

Additionally, there are unhoused people who may choose jail/prison as a shelter. (I don't know how common this is but you hear anecdotes about it.)

 

Has anyone ever watched the WeTV reality show "Love After Lockup?"  One of the released inmates, Matt, truly couldn't handle being out in the real world with all its responsibilities, expectations and curveballs and admitted on camera that he functioned better in prison.  Not surprisingly, he was back in prison within months.  I assume it was the structured days, the schedules, and the on-site food, shelter and medical care-no matter how awful it is-that appealed to him.  He knew exactly what to expect and thrived better in that environment.  

 

[Melissa1977]

3 hours ago, PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea said:

All good points and I'd also add that most people don't really understand exactly how bad prison is. Like I intellectually understand I probably wouldn't like it but I'm sure there is a lot I haven't considered and don't know. Most people probably haven't read/watched in-depth prison memoirs or seen it first hand so don't really get it. So it's not exactly an effective deterrent.

Additionally, there are unhoused people who may choose jail/prison as a shelter. (I don't know how common this is but you hear anecdotes about it.)

 

Many people say prisons are like hotels and should be harder. In my country, prisons are softer than in US but no way there are a desirable place. I agree that many people cannot imagine what being imprisoned looks like. I know people who go to a prison to do some volunteer work and they say there is a very uncomfortable sensation inside. 

 

[Bad Wolf]

The women in the county jail here often work outside the jail. They do grounds work at the capital building. Occasionally, the guard will bring them into the restaurant across the street for a cup of coffee. I eat there regularly, so I've often seen them.

I did my master's internship at the local women's prison. I ran a few classes and was available to talk. I'd usually have some small candies to give out. Some were in for really long sentences for small amounts of drugs, one or two for killing their abusers. I never had a problem. I treated them with respect, and they returned it. This was in 1995, so I have no idea how things have changed. Hopefully for the better.

[patsymae]

An acquaintance ran a program to prevent recidivism in an East Coast city. She said people would be doing great, no signs of anything amiss, complying with everything, and then all of a sudden most of them would be back in jail. Wait, what's going on? Well, she was told, winter is coming and its getting cold.

[Freejin]

11 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

"Doing time" is a colloquial phrase. I have a first degree relative who was a career criminal. He had many accounts of men who could not "do the time", meaning they could not settle down and adjust to the reality of prison life and culture, and become to some degree, institutionalized. These men would either have nervous breakdowns and need to be transferred to a mental health facility,  attempt to harm themselves, or be subject to harsh discipline for not being able to get along with other inmates and causing disturbances.

"Successful" prisoners develop a plan for how they will do their time, be it by furthering their education, focusing on body building, or some other productive activity. Some prisoners come to rely on the structure of institutional life so much that they cannot function o the outside, ala The Shawshank Redemption librarian character. They are the polar opposite of those who cannot do their time or who struggle.

Josh Duggar, convicted pedophile, is in my opinion, a weak man who has been coddled all his life. There's no coddling in prison. He's got substantial time to serve, and likely thought his daddy would get him off or he would have taken a plea deal. It probably has not really sunken in yet that incarceration is his life for the next ten years. When it does, I think it will be very, very difficult for him to adjust.

As a black person, I have many thoughts about the school to prison pipeline, the so called criminal justice system, and other aspects of policing, too much to go into here. Humane treatment of incarcerated folks, along with taking care of those who cannot care for themselves, are the hallmarks of a civilized society.

But some folks cannot be rehabilitated, and should never be released back into society if they manage to land behind bars. Other people should not be there in the first place, such as those convicted of  minor drug crimes under the failed "war on drugs". Particularly since the USA was the biggest drug dealer responsible for the crack epidemic, oh the hypocrisy, and now folks are getting rich off of legal weed. Not surprisingly, the corner boys in jail for selling nickel bags of course are mostly black, and the weed entrepreneurs are mostly white.  System inequities are massive.

As a CSA victim, I do think that sex crime perpetrators cannot be rehabilitated unless they permit extreme measures to be taken. I have no illusions about the American way of justice, which is rife with injustice. For-profit prisons are definitely not the answer. But the most dangerous among us need to be kept out of society at large.

That's enough for today, hope my clarification was adequate.

Totally helpful clarification. Thank you. Why do you say that Josh, in particular, won’t be able to do the time?

[Four is Enough]

21 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Josh Duggar, convicted pedophile, is in my opinion, a weak man who has been coddled all his life. There's no coddling in prison. He's got substantial time to serve, and likely thought his daddy would get him off or he would have taken a plea deal. It probably has not really sunken in yet that incarceration is his life for the next ten years. When it does, I think it will be very, very difficult for him to adjust.

I respectfully disagree. I agree that Josh is a weak, coddled man. But he is now trapped in prison the same way he was trapped in his life. When he had free time, like when he was "working" at that sham of a car lot, he got into trouble. In prison, however, he will not have to think at all. He will be told when to get up, go to bed, eat, bathe. He will not have to cook, clean up after, grocery shop, or plan meals. He will be told when it's exercise time, phone time. He'll be given a chance to go to whatever church services are available. He will be told when to gather up his dirty clothes for the laundry, when he can write a letter to someone, when he can  take a nap. 

I don't think any rehabilitative program will help him. He simply doesn't see any thing wrong with what he wants to do, and it seems that what he wants is to watch the stuff that got him into prison. He doesn't seem to be a very introspective person, so we can't count on critical thinking skills, because he doesn't know how to do that.

20 hours ago, Cam said:

 It was like an assault on my psyche. The second penitentiary was the Ohio State Reformatory, featured in Shawshank Redemption. Again, after the visit, the same feelings descended upon me, staying for months. I’d never had kind of reaction to something before. I do not think I will tour any more former prisons.

If you think touring an old, closed penitentiary is bad, try visiting your child at a functioning one. Starting with juvie, the sounds of the doors and gates closing before and behind you is penetrating. One door opens. Step into the space. That door closes. Then the door ahead of you opens. Step forward again. and repeat until you reach your goal.. reverse the procedure to leave the place. I hope never to hear those sounds again.

You can't take so much as a tissue inside, at the risk of giving something to the inmate. You are suspect as is the inmate.

I don't say this to try to garner sympathy, especially for Josh or his family, but I will say that it is very difficult to hear those sounds and walk through those doors and realize that this is your child's life every day. 

[Jackie3]

On 6/29/2022 at 10:46 AM, Antimony said:

How many more people would seek help for drug use if the knew they were not going to be jailed for their transgressions?
How many more people would ask for help with parenting, or mental health issues that they struggled with that led to neglect, etc. if they knew they were not going to be jailed for their transgressions? 
How many more people would call for help in domestic violence, etc, if they knew that it wouldn't end with both of them being arrested? 

The prisons are not filled with battered women or moms who sought parenting help. The prisons are filled with Josh Duggars. That's who you are advocating for. Child molesters and people who enjoy watching child molesters doing their thing.

I know people who have sought help for parenting/mental health/addiction. . . and gotten help. No one put them in jail. There are so many resources! I am involved in this work, so I know it happens. 

In my community, if you want parenting help, you go to your community mental health center. (If it's full, there are a variety of resources/free therapists you can be directed to.) These mental health centers have a huge variety of resources to help you.

I've worked at a free medical clinic too. Their problem was finding people to use all the resources they had. They had a free dentist who came once a week, and couldn't fill his spots. There were free therapists, even interpreters, all sitting and doing nothing.

As for DV--when police arrive and find a woman a broken arm and chunks of hair missing, and a drunken angry husband ----they do not arrest the woman with the broken arm. She hasn't committed a crime. They arrest the batterer, who has committed a crime. That's how it works.  Actually the difficulty is getting her to press charges. (The batterer rarely gets much time in jail, which should please you). 

Certainly the prison system has problems, but *making up problems* does not make a convincing argument for change.

Be careful not to overestimate the power of mental health services. "Going to counseling" does not always solve or remove a problem. Counseling can often be pretty ineffective, especially when dealing with complex, entrenched problems like addiction or pedophilia. The lower-paid counselors (generally the ones who work for the government) just may not have the skills to help. And the emphasis towards short-term therapy makes things worse. The highly-skilled therapist usually are in private practice, and even then, you have to look pretty hard to one that specializes in your particular issue.

It is certainly true that there are some people that are so dysfunctional that the fear of prison does not dissuade them from committing crimes. That's fine. But when they molest that child or beat up that gay man--I still want them in jail.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Jackie3

[Jackie3]

3 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

If you think touring an old, closed penitentiary is bad, try visiting your child at a functioning one. Starting with juvie, the sounds of the doors and gates closing before and behind you is penetrating.

That must be horrible and heartbreaking. But in the case of adult inmates, they created that situation. Not the prison system.

In the case of juveniles, it's more complex. Most of the kids in detention come from really difficult family situations. It's hard not to feel bad for them and feel they got a raw deal. They've seen a lot, at 14 or 15.

I've worked with juvenile offenders, back in the day, at a highly respected facility. The entire treatment was to teach them deep breathing and relaxation skills (over two years!). Everyone knew they had come from trauma, but it wasn't really addressed. I remember asking my boss if I could attend a trauma training, given by the world authority on trauma at the time. She said no, because she didnt' think it was relevant! We were all very poorly paid, so taking the training on my own wasn't an easy option. 

These kids were mostly released back into the chaotic homes where they came from. If a family was really dysfunctional, the kid would be sent to foster care or independent living, but that was rare. I remember one case where I refused to agree to reunification with a really abusive, racist family (the kid was biracial and family was white). It caused an uproar, because nearly all the time, the kids went back home after treatment.

Things are changing now, and there's more focus on where people come from. That is huge. Society isn't looking away from these things, which it did in the past.

Nothing is gained by treating adult inmates inhumanely--that damages them, and it damages us as a society. Inmates can certainly benefit from *good quality* therapy, but only if the inmate wants to change. But people do need to be held accountable for the crimes they commit as adults.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Jackie3