Josh and Anna 55: Settling in at Seagoville

[Antimony]

5 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

@Antimony I’m asking this out of curiosity (rather than out of “we need prisons because of this!!”) - what is the suggested no-prison alternative to someone like The Convicted Child Predator Duggar? Abolishing prisons are absolutely something I can get behind when it comes to most crimes but not his. I’m convinced he’s not rehabitable (I don’t know the correct word) and as such will still be a danger to children when he’s released, even with an astounding 20 additional years of parole. 

You're probably not going to get a satisfying answer from me, but I think we're kind of in the same boat here -- you're going to have to believe that I don't find what we're doing to Josh and his ilk right now to be satisfying or effective. 

There is this idea that "prison abolition" means a complete free for all of chaos and the end of justice. I kind of get why. Maybe we don't brand ourselves great. It might be more accurate to say that we are interested in restorative justice and community building. The Duggars are kind of an interesting problem because they are a tight knit community but of the worst possible people because while they have the trapping of community closeness, they're missing the key values of restorative and transformative justice. They did deal with Josh in their own way. Their own way was just useless. 

I also understand why people think he can't be rehabilitated. He's icky. But honestly, the answer is we don't really know. We still don't understand a lot, psychologically, medically, about pedophilia. It's an icky subject to right grants for.

In short, I think I would be lying if I told you there was an easy answer. There might not be an answer within Josh's lifetime, but ideally, I would like to see...
a) Enough research in pedophilia that we do understand what is the best evidence-based treatment for it, and if that includes some sort of medical treatment, well, it does. I get a little itchy about compulsory medical treatment but...it's not off the table for me. 
b) Enough social support (in terms of like, real, actual, funded, social services) to keep him from his children and create not only an obligation to be a mandated reporter but a trust in those services that his community (both family and not) are compelled to report violations. I don't think there's enough after his release, in terms of this kind of thing. 
c) If we're going to remove somebody from a community, I think it needs to look more like a half-way house. Again, these things only work if you invest in them and actually fund them. As they are now, these sorts of places are an extension of the prison system and they're just punitive. I think that reform takes a lot of imagining. I just don't think prison as we know it benefits or prevents any further crime here. I think if we decide some people must be separate, they cannot be so totally severed as they are right now. 
d) I've talked about this a lot but I think it's nuts that the fine he paid was so relatively low and that it goes back to the court. Drives me batty. I think fines collected for crimes should go to some sort of restorative justice. I think if he is going to pay a fine, it is better used to pay for victim services. I could almost imagine that garnished wages, or something, could be a lifetime punishment. I'm wavering on that one, but the fact that he pays nothing to the people he actually effected doesn't sit right with me.
e) Okay, weird one. I want his victims to have more of a voice. I don't think they have enough in the court system. The only voice victims really get in the court system is either testifying or writing sentencing letters. I don't think that's enough. Victims can ask for more time, but they can't ask for different time. They can't move to get restorative justice without civil courts. The victims of Josh's CSAM crimes don't even have that. They can just ask for more years but they can't submit an invoice to him for their therapy, or they can't move to compel him to go to therapy, etc. 
f) Every single thing I believe includes "ounce of prevention". The way the Duggars raised him was like a recipe for making a bad person. I don't think they should have been allowed to isolate themselves, their children, etc. So, like, insert usual conversation about early and appropriate and consent focused sex education. 

Again, maybe this is unsatisfying. Probably. But, I think what we're doing right not is deeply unsatisfying and ineffective. 
Sexual offender registries don't work. We know that from the data. 
Police aren't trusted by victims to handle these reports. 

For a bit of depressing back of the envelope math on the subject, in 2010, there were 85,000 rapes reported to the police in 2010. We also estimate that about 80,000 sexual assaults occur in our prison system each year. (Now, when I say back of the envelope, I mean it, because all rapes are sexual assaults, not all sexual assaults are described as rape, and we really don't have a good handle on this because underreporting is a huge issue for both populations.) But there are 330 million people in the United States as a whole but 2 million those in the prison system....so...hm. We have to consider that putting somebody in prison is putting them at risk of sexual assault. I get really upset about this when it's framed only as "protecting children" when the Texas Department of Justice is being investigated for mass sexual abuse of juveniles. (Behind the Bastards Pod has a good episode on this, if you want to absolutely scream into the void.)

Actually, I think this quote from Teen Vogue is good;

Quote

So the short answer is: most rapists do not end up in prisons anyway.

A non-abolitionist response to these statistics would be to simply push for more incarceration. I encourage us to think holistically and more creatively. The criminal system leaves many survivors traumatized by a process that does not give them what they need. The focus on convictions minimizes the reality that many survivors need financial resources to permanently leave violent households. While it's true that some survivors want their attacker imprisoned, others want access to mental health services. Many survivors want the perpetrator to admit their wrongdoing. In a criminal context, perpetrators cannot admit to wrongdoing without confessing to a crime and so have no incentive to do so. The criminal system is not designed to create survivor-centered responses to violence, to promote agency and healing in survivors, nor does it demand behavior change in the perpetrator. Like most white supremacist institutions, it is only designed to punish.

[...]

I know some survivors navigate the criminal system and receive the justice they seek. Survivors deserve to be safe and validated. They are entitled to the rage they feel for their perpetrators. But we cannot settle for a system that causes more harm and leaves many survivors behind. A movement that centers affluent, straight, cis, femme, and white survivors is one that inherently upholds white supremacy. I am dedicated to an anti-sexual and anti-domestic violence movement that does not uphold other forms of state sanctioned violence.

All this to say, I'm sorry that there isn't a satisfying answer, but I think our current answer also sucks, and I think that one must dare to imagine something new. Also, as always, I don't speak for every prison abolitionist or activist on the Earth. There are plenty of us. I can't grab it right now but I think Kabe talks about this in a chapter of We Do This 'Til We Free Us. It's something we talk about all the time, discuss, try to improve, debate. It isn't a question abolitionists want to ignore, if that is comforting.

[Cam]

I’ve never been the victim of a brutal crime. Nothing in my extended family would make an episode of Dateline. Whose to say how someone would react if their life, or loved one’s life, was altered by a vicious criminal act and the criminal was known and never went to prison because prisons didn’t exist. 
 

What if none of the people arrested in the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol did any jail time? No repercussions of lost freedoms, just pay a fine. Do some community work. How much more violent would the attack have been if citizens knew they were not going to be jailed for their transgressions?  
 

Is there an institution run without problems? Government? The education system? The Catholic Church (with its pedophilia epidemic strengthened by the systemic cover-up and offending clergymen merely getting shuffled around without consequences of any kind for their actions, i.e., most never were incarcerated for repeated crimes against children?)

And most crimes are never solved? Why so many filled prisons if that’s the case? 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Cam

[Antimony]

Gonna break this into parts, and like, as usual, I'm never trying to be an asshole. But maybe I'm internally a bitch. It's possible. 

1 hour ago, Cam said:

I’ve never been the victim of a brutal crime. Nothing in my extended family would make an episode of Dateline. Whose to say how someone would react if their life, or loved one’s life, was altered by a vicious criminal act and the criminal was known and never went to prison because prisons didn’t exist. 

I think it's notable to consider that many of the founders of the prison abolition movement are Black Women, one of the groups of people we generally see being the most underserved and vulnerable. I have not been a victim of something Dateline worthy, but crime? Yea. Sexual assault? Yes. I think many people in the prison abolition movement, from my experience, do have experience with being a victim. It's one of the ways you can end up close enough to the justice system to be heavily disillusioned by it. Many people are radicalized by their first experience asking for help. (Notable Prison abolitionists writers -- Angela Davis, Mariambe Kaba, Ruth Wilson Gilmore. You can even see some similar philosophies in the writings of bell hooks.)

By and large, this isn't a movement that comes from people who don't crime and trauma and suffering. It comes from people who do, and said the prison system isn't helping at all. 

1 hour ago, Cam said:

What if none of the people arrested in the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol did any jail time? No repercussions of lost freedoms, just pay a fine. Do some community work. How much more violent would the attack have been if citizens knew they were not going to be jailed for their transgressions?  

I could be crazy but...I think they didn't think they would be arrested or jailed at all. Very few of them made any effort to cover their face, they brought their phones in, took geotagged photographs. And why would they have expected consequences? The sitting President of the United States was telling them to do it. He was using state authority to incite violence. This wasn't state authority preventing violence. It was the opposite. It was the leveraging of the authority of the state to incite a coup.

But, because it begs the question...
How many more people would seek help for drug use if the knew they were not going to be jailed for their transgressions?
How many more people would ask for help with parenting, or mental health issues that they struggled with that led to neglect, etc. if they knew they were not going to be jailed for their transgressions? 
How many more people would call for help in domestic violence, etc, if they knew that it wouldn't end with both of them being arrested? 

Questions like these cut both ways. And maybe for some people, that points to decriminalization of things, which honestly -- cool.

2 hours ago, Cam said:

Is there an institution run without problems? Government? The education system? The Catholic Church (with its pedophilia epidemic strengthened by the systemic cover-up and offending clergymen merely getting shuffled around without consequences of any kind for their actions, i.e., most never were incarcerated for repeated crimes against children?)

The answer here is no, but I guess I don't understand the point of the question. I don't think the ubiquity of problems is a reason to not address them, or talk about them. 

2 hours ago, Cam said:

And most crimes are never solved? Why so many filled prisons if that’s the case? 

I feel like you don't believe me...but you can just look it up. It's a well known phenomenon. Perhaps even more baffling, they're getting worse. Clearance rates are going down. All the forensics in the world, and we're arresting fewer suspects. 

For rape, from 1964-2018, we can watch the clearance rate decrease.

At the same time, police budgets have increased 400% since 1977, but clearance rates are down by almost half? What is going on? 

But as to why are our prisons still full, if police aren't doing their jobs? Sentence lengths are probably a big factor. The United States has very long sentences compared to other countries for similar crimes. Our parole system also created a revolving door of inmates. Once you're in, it's hard to get out. So, people are there for a long time, and that contributes to why they're crowded. It can be both and the fact that it is both should be a ringing condemnation of our system.

[SPHASH]

Not a fan of for profit prisons.  I listened to former NFL QB Ryan Leafs podcast Bust.  For those not familiar Ryan was drafted 2nd in the 1998 draft behind Peyton Manning.  He lasted about four years due to poor play, poor attitude, and a shoulder injury hence the name Bust.  After he retired he developed a painkiller addiction which landed him in prison for three years.  He had burglarized homes to find pills after the USPS busted him for buying large amounts of pills through the mail.

Ryan described the van ride from the county jail to the Montana state prison where he served his sentence.  There were overall dozen inmates in a van that held only 8 max.  One inmate urinated because they wouldn't stop to let him use the john.  Prison meals was high carbs high sodium.  Ryan gained weight, got high blood pressure and was at risk of stroke. 

While he got  counseling in prison it wasn't sufficient for a drug addict so when he got out he went to rehab in California.

This prison was for profit too.

Edited June 29, 2022 by SPHASH

[BlackberryGirl]

 

One of the things about incarceration that people forget is that INCARCERATION is the punishment. Think if you were only allowed to be in the confines of your home., and say 40 feet around it. You can still have tv, eat what you normally eat when you want, sleep when you want, have family and friends in, you just can’t leave. Most people would chafe at that pretty quick. . 

i keep seeing people complain about the least privilege incarcerated people get.. tv? Screw em, books? Nah, food that they pay for, why should they? 

the list of rules followed by BOP prisoners is extreme and much is arbitrary. Example, if you work a night shift, you are allowed to sleep part of the day, but only on top of your bedding, not under the blanket. How the hell does that help the efficient or safe running of the prison?  
prisoners aren’t eating gourmet meals, but come on nothing but baloney or only two meals a day is wrong. (Joe Arpaio, I’m looking at you.)

I know alot can be improved and thanks @antimony for all you’ve written.

[neuroticcat]

Only slightly adjacent to this conversation but I’m currently listening to season 3 of the Serial podcast and it’s 🤯 at how incompetent and, in a sense, rigged the system is. 

[imokit]

I work night shifts on a regular basis.  The idea of only sleeping on top of the bed and only for a few hours is inhuman.  I get prison is supposed to be tough, but sleep deprivation counts as torture, if people are going to be made to do night shifts, they need the same opportunity for sleep as day shift workers get.

[Cam]

3 hours ago, Antimony said:

 I don't think the ubiquity of problems is a reason to not address them, or talk about them. 

 

And here we are, numerous pages discussing them, bringing up all manner of perspectives on the matter.

[Pecansforeveryone]

There are anywhere from dozens to hundreds of Capital insecurectionists still at large. There isn't a single one of them that I feel got anything more than a slap on the wrist for crimes that in my mind include, sedition, a potentially capital offense. (I don't support the death penalty.) The only reason they didn't kill people was because the people they were interested in killing had escaped to safety not because of fear of prison. This question is so obtuse that either the person asking saw different footage of the insurrection than I did or is deliberately playing dumb. 

[anjulibai]

Quote

e) Okay, weird one. I want his victims to have more of a voice. I don't think they have enough in the court system. The only voice victims really get in the court system is either testifying or writing sentencing letters. I don't think that's enough. Victims can ask for more time, but they can't ask for different time. They can't move to get restorative justice without civil courts. The victims of Josh's CSAM crimes don't even have that. They can just ask for more years but they can't submit an invoice to him for their therapy, or they can't move to compel him to go to therapy, etc. 

 

I can understand this abstractly, but there are many victims in this country who would want violent justice, or harsher penalties than are given, and money would not be enough. 

[Antimony]

9 minutes ago, anjulibai said:

 

I can understand this abstractly, but there are many victims in this country who would want violent justice, or harsher penalties than are given, and money would not be enough. 

You're sure as shit not wrong.

I just feel like this as an option doesn't mean we have to increase caps on what we considered a reasonable or allowable request. We already have those. The ceiling can still be where it is if we widen the room. It still creates more space.

I also think having these options might change how people feel. Not all cases, some. We're so accustomed to punitive justice, it's our default so it makes sense that we magnify that default to suit our emotions. I think we need some other options. Victims get left holding the check way too much already, without anybody asking them what they think. I,or the court, can disagree with that they think (and that wouldn't be new at all), but I don't think we have enough supports to ask or offer options. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Antimony

[Katzchen24]

55 minutes ago, Antimony said:

You're sure as shit not wrong.

I just feel like this as an option doesn't mean we have to increase caps on what we considered a reasonable or allowable request. We already have those. The ceiling can still be where it is if we widen the room. It still creates more space.

I also think having these options might change how people feel. Not all cases, some. We're so accustomed to punitive justice, it's our default so it makes sense that we magnify that default to suit our emotions. I think we need some other options. Victims get left holding the check way too much already, without anybody asking them what they think. I,or the court, can disagree with that they think (and that wouldn't be new at all), but I don't think we have enough supports to ask or offer options. 

I'm wondering how this would look in the context of cases of CSA or other kinds of abuse, where the victims are minors, or in the same situation as the Duggar girls. I don't like the idea of taking even more agency away from victims who are either too young, too scared or too oppressed (? is that the right word, but like the Duggar girls) to take part in restorative justice. It seems like a very good way of giving them back some of the autonomy that was taken from them by perpetrators by giving them a louder voice in the consequences. In some cases though, they might not be ready to speak out until a long time has passed and this won't fit into the current justice system.

I'm not disagreeing on any particular point, just trying to think about how this system could work.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

I find it difficult to be upset over the prison conditions Josh will find himself enduring. He did the crime and now he’s going to do the time. I certainly have a lot of anger towards Josh and all child abusers, probably as a result of my own abuse. 

[Bad Wolf]

Josh has a support system which will ensure he has enough money for phone calls and commissary and anything else he might want.

 

[Jackie3]

14 hours ago, Antimony said:

Because it means it isn't force or the state that prevents us from being a free for all. It's us. True crime media (which, by the way, I love!) loves to hype up fear. Sell self protection. Sell an extra lock for your back door. But the thing that is protecting you most of the time is that most people are decent. It's not the police. It's communities, decency, support networks. I find it refreshing because I think it would be exhausting to believe that most people are so evil or easy to manipulate that a world without prison would be a free for all.

 

Most people are decent. Some people are bad. Personally, I don't believe they are born bad, I believe it's mostly environment that creates criminals. But they are bad nonetheless.

Some of those bad people can't control themselves at all. Others control themselves because of the fear of punishment. They don't hit their wives, for example, because they don't want to go to prison. Back before there were DV laws, women got hit a lot more. Check the statistics. DV was far more commonplace before DV laws. Back then, abusers hit their wives, who were mostly dependent housewives who could not punish them. They did not hit their bosses, who could fire them.

I am grateful for those DV laws, which can lead to prison to batterers and a short period of safety for their victims. Imagine being a child who watches his mother being battered day after day. When his father is imprisoned, what a wonderful period of peace and safety prison brings for this child! I've known kids who loved having their dads in prison. No yelling, no screaming, no drunken rages--a much safer and more peaceful environment. A huge relief. 

There are cities that are rapidly cutting back on their police force. Those cities are seeing a big escalation in crime. Without the fear of punishment, crime dramatically increases. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Jackie3

[Antimony]

51 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

There are cities that are rapidly cutting back on their police force. Those cities are seeing a big escalation in crime. Without the fear of punishment, crime dramatically increases. 

Source? None of this is borne out in the data and most cities that brought the idea of defunding police and re-allocating funds to other social services after the murder of George Floyd didn't do that. 

On top of that, there just isn't enough time to collect a meaningful set of statistics on this. COVID showed a small bump in crime but overall, crime has been going down since the 1990s. George Floyd was murdered only two years ago. Police defunding, largely, hasn't happen. If it had, there hasn't been enough time to correlate any of that data because it's going to be buried in the noise. 

(Graph, crime rates. They're down.)

51 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

Imagine being a child who watches his mother being battered day after day. 

I don't have to imagine it. I already lived it. What is your problem?

Edit: Honestly, you get on here and you tell me to imagine "what it would be like to be a sexually abused child." I've already done it. What it might be like to watch my mother be beaten by my father day after day. I've already done it. I worked at the domestic violence shelter my mother ran to for years. Driven in evasive patterns to secret locations to spirit women away to for their safety? I've done it.  What's next? What it might be like to be in an abusive relationship myself? Done that one. What it might be like to be drugged with rohypnol in your own house and have no memory of what followed? I've done that one too. Cleaned up my partners wounds after a friend's psychosis made him violent? I've done that one too. What amount of disclosed trauma would be sufficient here for you to not treat me like shit? 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Antimony

[cacophony_grey]

A turning point for me in trying to imagine a world without (or with much less) incarceration was learning about "Million Dollar Blocks." These are single blocks in urban areas where the government spends $1 million dollars or more to incarcerate the citizens living on that block. Imagine what it might look like to invest that money differently into that block. 

In 2015, there were 851 Million Dollar Blocks in the city of Chicago alone. 

https://chicagosmilliondollarblocks.com/

(Context for people not familiar with Illinois politics: in 2015, we were entering our third year without a state budget because the governor was trying to starve the state into approving his desired budget cuts and anti-labor initiatives. That context shapes how the issue is framed in the link I shared.)

Other cities have also posted information on their Million Dollar Blocks.

[cacophony_grey]

As for for-profit prisons, I agree with @noseybutt that they should not be allowed because they will push to keep prisons filled. CoreCivic's primary goal is to make money for it's investors, and it is very good at it. They regularly post revenues of over a billion and are a Fortune 500 company. They stay making money because they work hard to influence who ends up in prison and why: they lobby in favor of incarceration for drug-related offenses and against attempts to eliminate pre-trial incarceration for those who cannot afford bond money*. When prison populations started to dip a few years ago, they pivoted to contracting with ICE to imprison undocumented immigrants and asylum seekers.

* Bond is a whole other issue since many people in prison haven't been convicted of anything; they're just too poor to pay bail. I could rant about that for days.

[FluffySnowball]

14 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

Only slightly adjacent to this conversation but I’m currently listening to season 3 of the Serial podcast and it’s 🤯 at how incompetent and, in a sense, rigged the system is. 

Yes!!! I’m following the first case discussed in Serial and really hope the most likely wrongly imprisoned guy, Adnan Sayed, gets out sooner rather than later. It’s heart wrenching to think of all the innocently incarcerated people serving time in the US (and anywhere else, of course). 

Edited June 30, 2022 by FluffySnowball
typo

[SilverBeach]

The Duggars were my gateway fundies many years ago and are why I ended up on Free Jinger. To see the spectacular fall of the House of Duggar is both satisfying and heartbreaking, because of the heinous crimes Josh committed that brought it all down.

My family of origin was shitty, and I fantasized about being in a large and loving home like the Duggars seemingly had. Now I feel sympathy for the sisters who had to live with their pervert brother, and how they probably never felt safe or relaxed in their own home. It was all bullshit presented to the public by Jim Bob.

I knew something was wrong with Josh when he performed hand sex on Anna. And as for Anna? Fuck her through and through. To stay and support that sick bastard is first-class delusion and shows zero empathy for his victims. She's smug too.  Hate her. And Jim Bob. And Michelle.

Let's see how he does the next decade, I don't think he'll be able to do the time. But he's right where he ought to be.

[Freejin]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

The Duggars were my gateway fundies many years ago and are why I ended up on Free Jinger. To see the spectacular fall of the House of Duggar is both satisfying and heartbreaking, because of the heinous crimes Josh committed that brought it all down.

My family of origin was shitty, and I fantasized about being in a large and loving home like the Duggars seemingly had. Now I feel sympathy for the sisters who had to live with their pervert brother, and how they probably never felt safe or relaxed in their own home. It was all bullshit presented to the public by Jim Bob.

I knew something was wrong with Josh when he performed hand sex on Anna. And as for Anna? Fuck her through and through. To stay and support that sick bastard is first-class delusion and shows zero empathy for his victims. She's smug too.  Hate her. And Jim Bob. And Michelle.

Let's see how he does the next decade, I don't think he'll be able to do the time. But he's right where he ought to be.

What do you mean you don’t think he’ll be able to do the time?

[Antipatriarch]

9 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

Yes!!! I’m following the first case discussed in Serial and really hope the most likely wrongly imprisoned guy, Adnan Sayed, gets out sooner rather than later.

"Serial" and "In The Dark" are excellent. Good reporting/investigation and good production values. I didn't like Serial season 2 as much as seasons 1 and 3 (which were fantastic); if your time is limited you might want to jump ahead to 3 after you finish 1. In the Dark season 2 on Curtis Flowers was the best of all, IMO. A few spoiler-y thoughts:

Spoiler

1. I honestly don't know if Adnan Syed is "innocent" (did he do it or not). But the one thing Serial season 1 absolutely convinced me of, is that the state did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. He should have been found not guilty. Something was clearly wrong with Adnan's attorney, and I wonder what would have happened if he'd had someone else, because the government's theory had big holes in it. I'm sorry Rabia Chaudry and Adnan's team were not successful in getting him a new trial.

2. All I'll say about Bowe Bergdahl is that he was seriously misguided in what he chose to do. When you're in the military you don't get to decide to disobey to try to send some kind of message to your commanders. And you sure as hell don't do something that puts your comrades at risk trying to find you and get you back.

3. I honestly believe the In the Dark crew get the credit for halting a long chain of injustices against Curtis Flowers. It blows me away that went on as long as it did. Who knows if he ever would have been freed if they had not done that podcast. Well done. The other sad and angering thing is that Doug Evans paid no price for what he did. That man is a piece of shit.

 

[neuroticcat]

12 hours ago, FluffySnowball said:

Yes!!! I’m following the first case discussed in Serial and really hope the most likely wrongly imprisoned guy, Adnan Sayed, gets out sooner rather than later. It’s heart wrenching to think of all the innocently incarcerated people serving time in the US (and anywhere else, of course). 

Spoiler

At the end of Season 1 I was really on the fence about his innocent/guilt. IMO the state’s case didn’t seem strong enough to convict him, so I think it was a kind of wrongful imprisonment. But I still think he did it. 

 

Season 3 is really fascinating b/c each episode is a different element of observations in a single justice center over a year. Fascinating glimpse into the little details that are stacked against marginalized people: bond, fees, cop corruption, etc

 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by neuroticcat
Added spoiler

[neuroticcat]

2 hours ago, Antipatriarch said:

"Serial" and "In The Dark" are excellent. Good reporting/investigation and good production values. I didn't like Serial season 2 as much as seasons 1 and 3 (which were fantastic); if your time is limited you might want to jump ahead to 3 after you finish 1. In the Dark season 2 on Curtis Flowers was the best of all, IMO. A few spoiler-y thoughts:

  Hide contents

1. I honestly don't know if Adnan Syed is "innocent" (did he do it or not). But the one thing Serial season 1 absolutely convinced me of, is that the state did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. He should have been found not guilty. Something was clearly wrong with Adnan's attorney, and I wonder what would have happened if he'd had someone else, because the government's theory had big holes in it. I'm sorry Rabia Chaudry and Adnan's team were not successful in getting him a new trial.

2. All I'll say about Bowe Bergdahl is that he was seriously misguided in what he chose to do. When you're in the military you don't get to decide to disobey to try to send some kind of message to your commanders. And you sure as hell don't do something that puts your comrades at risk trying to find you and get you back.

3. I honestly believe the In the Dark crew get the credit for halting a long chain of injustices against Curtis Flowers. It blows me away that went on as long as it did. Who knows if he ever would have been freed if they had not done that podcast. Well done. The other sad and angering thing is that Doug Evans paid no price for what he did. That man is a piece of shit.

 

Spoiler

Yes! Agree with much of this, especially about the not enough to convict Adnan. Sounds like his DA really failed him. I still think he did it b/c of the few bits of evidence that put him near the scene and his friend’s testimony,  but I think there’s too many missing pieces to make it a coherent story. He was not proven guilty. At any rate I also wished they would have investigated the chronic pot use as far as memory lapses and uncharacteristic violence. It was weird to me that no one ever even mentioned that as relevant to the spotty testimony memories. 
 

Anyway, Season 1 was so compelling and I binged it. Season 2 was interesting to me, especially since I know next to nothing about military life/protocol. IMO Bowe should have never enlisted. It was interesting to me that his family were fundie homeschoolers and how that might have played into his trauma and inability to cope. I did agree with the conclusion that had he not been kidnapped, it likely would have been a blip..,a weird kid story. Wild story all around.

Then I jumped ahead to Season 5 since it was downloaded and I was offline for awhile (Really enjoyed that too and liked hearing a fresh perspective and host) and am now back to season 3. Way behind the curve on the podcast but I am glad for it now!

 

[dawbs]

On 6/29/2022 at 6:47 PM, anjulibai said:

 

I can understand this abstractly, but there are many victims in this country who would want violent justice, or harsher penalties than are given, and money would not be enough. 

There are also a lot of victims that don't want that voice.

Gimme the choice of having to waste a modicum of brain space on my abuser vs. Doing nothing and not having to poke that wound? I'm not sure there's enough money in the bank to get me to talk publicly.

(Also, to anyone who says "but what about other victims #1 and foremost,  eff you and #2 he's gonna die in jail)