Dillards 90: Degrees, Exams, Vacations and Vaccinations, Oh MY!

[Smash!]

1 hour ago, SamanthasMom said:

Many of my friends that were and are SAHMs would post in our thirties about how it was their choice, how their contributions were valued, and how what they did at home enabled their husbands to work. Ten years down the road many of these same women are now divorced and left high and dry. These are educated women with supportive families, so I worry for Jill because she has no real work history, and we know the Duggars certainly wouldn’t do anything for her. 
 

it is easy to snark on the extreme forms of patriarchy in fundie families, but harder to look at how the choices we all make are circumscribed by the society we live in. 

I think the system has to change. The gender pay gap is real not just because „women‘s professions“ are usually low/lesser paid jobs but a lot of women don‘t get promoted because they‘re in their child bearing years and could get pregnant. Or they have children and are expected to stay home if the child is sick. If couples do the math it‘s logical that the person who earns more keeps working.

Unfortunately paid work is still a men‘s world, where women fit in as long as they stay in their lane. 

[SweetLaurel]

7 hours ago, SamanthasMom said:

Many of my friends that were and are SAHMs would post in our thirties about how it was their choice, how their contributions were valued, and how what they did at home enabled their husbands to work. Ten years down the road many of these same women are now divorced and left high and dry. These are educated women with supportive families, so I worry for Jill because she has no real work history, and we know the Duggars certainly wouldn’t do anything for her.

Yes. This. And not only divorced women, but I'm on a lot of widow groups.  Fifty year olds plus who have never worked outside the home and suddenly are left with no income, very little insurance, no SS and have to sell houses, work fast food, and move in with kids.   When people glow about staying home my big mouth always tells them that's a great gig if you can get it, but find a skill and keep a skill updated.   You will thank me later.   

[feministxtian]

18 minutes ago, SweetLaurel said:

Yes. This. And not only divorced women, but I'm on a lot of widow groups.  Fifty year olds plus who have never worked outside the home and suddenly are left with no income, very little insurance, no SS and have to sell houses, work fast food, and move in with kids.   When people glow about staying home my big mouth always tells them that's a great gig if you can get it, but find a skill and keep a skill updated.   You will thank me later.   

I see this in a lot of the widows' groups I am part of too. This is why I'm in favor of get an education, maintain at least a part time job, keep skills up to date, take classes for proficiency. I'm fortunate that I qualified for some VA benefits, and have the ability to make a living. I have chosen to do what I'm doing, knowing that I could always put my resume out on the street and be able to make a helluva lot more money than I make now. But, I see women my age or older who are depending on pitiful SS checks, children or other aid (not that I have a problem with that but I think it's sad that widows are pretty much automatically forced into poverty). I could get my husband's SS when I turn 60 but then there'd be a cap on how much I can earn, and I'd probably have to give up my teaching and freelance gigs. If I can make it to 67 without having to tap it, then I'd be doing ok. Its ridiculous. 

[louisa05]

I have a friend who let her teaching certificate expire after becoming a SAHM. She decided it was too expensive to renew since our state requires 6 graduate credits every five years if you’re not teaching full time. I cannot fathom doing that. Our state also requires more credits to get recertification if you let it expire and ten weeks of student teaching—which is unpaid. So if she were divorced or widowed and needed to make a living, she’s made it almost impossible to go back to the job she trained for. 

[nausicaa]

38 minutes ago, SweetLaurel said:

When people glow about staying home my big mouth always tells them that's a great gig if you can get it, but find a skill and keep a skill updated.   You will thank me later.   

And not just job skills but financial skills. I'm shocked at the number of women I've met (some of whom were coworkers with full-time jobs) who didn't know what kind of retirement account their money was in, how much their husband was putting in for retirement, or how much their monthly mortgage payment was or even what bank it was with. 

[louisa05]

5 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

And not just job skills but financial skills. I'm shocked at the number of women I've met (some of whom were coworkers with full-time jobs) who didn't know what kind of retirement account their money was in, how much their husband was putting in for retirement, or how much their monthly mortgage payment was or even what bank it was with. 

I know evangelical women who brag about how they’ve literally never held a job or looked at or paid a bill. I’m sure the SAHDs and SAHDs who graduated to marriage that we talk about here are the same. 

[feministxtian]

18 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

And not just job skills but financial skills. I'm shocked at the number of women I've met (some of whom were coworkers with full-time jobs) who didn't know what kind of retirement account their money was in, how much their husband was putting in for retirement, or how much their monthly mortgage payment was or even what bank it was with. 

Not just that but things as simple as how to get an oil change or change a tire. No idea of what bills there were, no idea of balances, yearly income, investments, insurance, etc. 

We didn't have retirement or investments, we were way too broke. I've survived, but there are many women who do not have the skills they should to figure out how to put together a living. 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

We talked about (and probably will again) my husband leaving the workforce if we have a second child.  If we had twins the second time around, which is slightly more likely given my age and the fact that fraternal twins tend to run in my family, monthly childcare would eat up his paycheck completely and a bit more.  I told him even if he made zero take home, he could still keep his job and I'd support him if that's what he wanted.  Kids won't be in daycare forever and he shouldn't have to start from scratch if he doesn't want to.  Besides, somedays the crying gets to you and I swear it does permanent change to your personality.

Edited March 13, 2022 by GuineaPigCourtship
riffles

[Cam]

Letting a certificate expire because it’s costly to renew is what women are trained to do: put themselves last. If you’re only living on the husband’s paycheck, you have less money. So when money is needed for the kids’s braces, new tires for the car and Christmas presents, mom looks at what more she can sacrifice to take care of everyone else. Females are guilted and conditioned practically from birth to overgive and put all others before themselves.

For several years I organized a large annual fundraiser called Family Fun Night for my child’s school, getting people to work and donate time and goods. Parents and kids came and spent money on tickets for games, raffles, rides and food. One volunteer mom thought we should just give the stuff away to everyone who attended, not wanting to charge them. You couldn’t get a lot of these volunteer moms to comprehend the concept of needing to make a profit. Profits were used to take the students on an all-school field trip. For some of those kids, it would be an experience they wouldn’t otherwise have. But some moms just wanted to be nice and do all that Family Fun Night work for nothing.

So there’s a lot of disconnect. Many women are trained to believe if you’re nice and follow the golden rule, somehow you will miraculously be taken care of in your golden years even if you made no plans for your own well being.

[SassyPants]

Yikes. Despite being retired from a long term career for 7 years, I still maintain my professional license. Since I’m not yet qualified for Medicare (real close), I like to keep my options for medical coverage open if something were to happen to my husband. I am past the age to draw SS but have deferred starting it.

[Smee]

After a decade being a SAHM, I’m currently getting divorced. I’ve been fine with mowing the lawn, getting the car serviced, keeping track of bills etc, but finding a way to work while getting my kids to & from school on time is a whole different ball game. I’m also 1/3 way through my PhD and don’t want to have to quit but don’t know how I can find the time to study and work and raise kids and keep the house clean on my own. Technically, my ex husband and I have the same qualifications for the same industry. In fact I finished my undergrad before him and worked to support him while he studied for the first year of our marriage. But even not including childcare before/after school and any costs to get accreditation renewed, if I went back to the same job full time tomorrow, my earning capacity would be ~$40K/year less than his. It wasn’t supposed to matter so much, because we were supposed to be on shared finances. When we were married, we talked a few times about how once we’d started on the path of me as primary caregiver it became less and less possible for us to swap roles without taking a bigger and bigger financial hit. Now, though, we’re going through a divorce settlement and when my lawyer argues that I should get more than 50% of shared assets because of reduced earning capacity and retirement savings from all that time raising our kids and supporting his career, he argues that was my choice (uh, it was OUR choice).

Thank God I’m not in America and I don’t have to worry about health insurance on top of everything else.

[feministxtian]

1 hour ago, Cam said:

Letting a certificate expire because it’s costly to renew is what women are trained to do: put themselves last.

Yup. At great mental, physical and emotional cost. We are "trained" to run ourselves ragged, to feel guilty for doing anything for ourselves. The price is extremely expensive. 

[Idlewild]

I’m a lawyer and over the last 30+ years I have been in the profession I am still amazed at otherwise bright, capable women who give no thought about what would happen if they are widowed or split from their partner. They let their practising certificates lapse and an increasing number choose not to marry when they have children, but give up work or go part time without any arrangements for what happens if there’s a break up. Unmarried couples in England are not automatically entitled to claim spousal maintenance, only child maintenance. So if there is a disparity in their earnings, the lower paid partner is at a real disadvantage trying to claim any support or relaunch themselves in the workplace.

 I think there is still a very strong feeling of ‘it will never happen to me’ and of course people in love and in happy relationships don’t want to consider things going wrong, but if you have children, you need to plan.

[Grace]

The possible widow-with-no-income is fairly easy to solve for young people. Get enough life insurance! I am not a Dave Ramsey fan but definitely agree with his plan to insure the working parents high enough that interest on the payout will replace their income. I'd even go a step further and insure both parents for the highest income amount so the working parent can take a break and be home with their grieving children as long as they need. It would be extra awful for kids used to spending all day with mom to suddenly be thrust into daycare.

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, Grace said:

The possible widow-with-no-income is fairly easy to solve for young people. Get enough life insurance! I am not a Dave Ramsey fan but definitely agree with his plan to insure the working parents high enough that interest on the payout will replace their income. I'd even go a step further and insure both parents for the highest income amount so the working parent can take a break and be home with their grieving children as long as they need. It would be extra awful for kids used to spending all day with mom to suddenly be thrust into daycare.

We had a friend whose husband died of a heart attack in his 30s. He had life insurance, they were dual income and had no kids. It took a Lot of hard work, including hiring an attorney to get the IC to pay out.. This was in the 80s, so maybe things have improved. It was painful to watch that process play out and what our friend had to go through. I remember pre-existing condition being one of the terms thrown around.

[Cam]

I agree, Grace. Term life insurance is inexpensive when you’re young and healthy and is one way to address the issue of “what if”, especially if you have children.

 

On the sahm topic:  I highly recommend watching the film  “Picture a Scientist” on Netflix. This well made film is about the discrimination women in the STEM* fields deal with. STEM college classes are 3/4 filled with women, yet after graduation and internships, only about 1/4 of these women remain in this chosen field. This is known as “the leaky pipeline”. Studies show that sexual harassment and other offensive behaviors propel women away from staying in these male dominated careers. The film tells the personal stories of several female scientists, including an MIT molecular biologist, and the different types of harassment and discrimination they faced on the job and how they dealt with it. Very well told.

Through the film, we learn 10% of unwanted behavior towards women includes sexual attention, coercion and assault. The other 90% is made up of subtler exclusions such as: being left off an email, not being invited to a collaboration where you are the clear expert, not given credit where credit is due, being made to feel that you don’t belong through vulgar name calling, obscene gestures or hostile remarks, being passed over for promotion and treated inequitably through distribution of laboratory space and other resources such as salaries and awards.

———-

All this is to say, women starting out in careers, and not just STEM ones, are often also starting to have children. Some of them become frustrated and exhausted by the way they are treated on the job. They see the sahm route as a solution, a better way to spend their time and energy.

*STEM - Science,Technology, Engineering, Math

Edited March 13, 2022 by Cam

[zee_four]

I never had a chance to stay at home with my son. I was was server and my boyfriend at the time a bartender (I was 25 when my son was born, ex was 35) I worked up until the week before I gave birth and was back at work 2 weeks later. It sucked. There was a nice abuelita next door who would watch him between 4 and 10 pm when I would go to work and get home. Definitely not licensed but between not being able to afford a licensed place and even if I could or somehow managed to get enough child care credit from DHS none are open late and the difference in money between a lunch shift and dinner shift is like minimum $20 you walk with vs $100. My ex got off around 2 am and would fuck around until 4 am sometiems. Neither of us had work provided health insurance even though we were FT employees. I was on Medicaid and WiC and luckily Colorado had a higher income cutoff for the disabled and pregnant women. I have about $12k in a savings account and only recently built that up the past 2-3 years after I left a different abusive  relationship. That $12k is all I have and I am so proud of saving up every spare penny and also moving back to Hawai'i has helped because they have even stronger benefits and social programs which has allowed me to go back to school.

Unfortunately for all the moms I've served with, worked at hotels with (minus managers), danced at a whole range if clubs with, etc. staying at home hasn't been a choice if we want to pay rent. Multi generational households in BIPOC families usually depend on kupuna/elderly. In CO unlike HI I wasnt living in a multi gen household but the kindness of all my neighbors who were helped us squad by. It was $20 -40 cash per night and the lady watched a few other all Latine keiki of mothers and fathers who worked night shifts at laundries, hotels and restaurants. 

I never had the option of choosing so I didn't think about it but still want to get married and have more kids, I'm 33 so we'll see how that goes.  If I stay in Hawai'i its so expensive but I have a horrifying (in a good way... sometimes) number of ohana and its just expected tutu or aunties watch the keiki while mom works. 

And tutu, auntie, etc. always live with younger ohana because service industry type jobs whether it's housekeeping, waitresses, fast food, etc. don't have retirement other than low paying SS and not all immigrants qualify for this  and that doesn't get you far in Hawai'i or expensive CO mtn towns. 

 

A lot of people look down on Latine,  Native (Hawaiian/Kānaka, Navajo/Dine' etc.) or Filipine ohanas and culture for caring more about the family than the individual, often Western teachers, politicians etc. but we would be nothing without it. Each system has its pros and cons.

Edited March 13, 2022 by zee_four

[SweetLaurel]

3 hours ago, Grace said:

The possible widow-with-no-income is fairly easy to solve for young people. Get enough life insurance! I am not a Dave Ramsey fan but definitely agree with his plan to insure the working parents high enough that interest on the payout will replace their income. I'd even go a step further and insure both parents for the highest income amount so the working parent can take a break and be home with their grieving children as long as they need. It would be extra awful for kids used to spending all day with mom to suddenly be thrust into daycare.

 Easy to say - not so good on the follow through. Young people think they are invincible so why waste the money?  They switch jobs and lose it.  They simply can't afford any bills that aren't a gotta.   They think, iif they get some, it would be 'plenty'. And it is very often not.     They get divorced and the ex sure isn't getting MY insurance benefits!   they go in the hospital or care for a few years and it lapses.  Many many reason. It is not as simple as 'load up on insurance'.    

[patsymae]

1 hour ago, SweetLaurel said:

 Easy to say - not so good on the follow through. Young people think they are invincible so why waste the money?  They switch jobs and lose it.  They simply can't afford any bills that aren't a gotta.   They think, iif they get some, it would be 'plenty'. And it is very often not.     They get divorced and the ex sure isn't getting MY insurance benefits!   they go in the hospital or care for a few years and it lapses.  Many many reason. It is not as simple as 'load up on insurance'.    

This. When you're young it's very hard to think of yourself as an old person (I'm still shocked.) And when you're young and poor, or a single mom (as I was) you might even think or know that insurance, savings, etc. are a good idea but if you have mouths to feed and the rent is due and the kids need shoes, that's where your money is going to go.

Fast forward to being ancient like me--71. The '80s and '90s were not family friendly for workers and I had a troubled teenager so bounced around jobs and then freelanced, meaning no 401Ks, etc. The 2008 recession hit, and pretty much obliterated my industry, just as I was too old to get rehired if things came back to normal so had to take early SS, almost half of what I could have if I'd worked another few years. A friend of mine is in similar circumstances, through a different route, still working and she's doing to be 80 in November.
luckily we both have skills where we can work from home, but who'd have thought at our age we'd be like, okay, just had the electrical work done and will have to work another couple of months before I can get the gutters cleaned? Without our educations and particular skill sets we'd be living down under the bridge. If we had a bridge.

[Cam]

But term life insurance is one possible way to hedge your bets, so to speak, if a woman chooses to be a sahm while husband works. I get the part where young adults feel immortal. But something like getting insurance is another of those practical life skills not being taught. Just as a reference, in my 30s I got a $100,000 policy for a couple of decades which cost a very affordable $14 a month from a reputable company.

I get the part about Dave Ramsey at least having some useable financial advice, too. I didn’t have the internet years ago to learn about money. In the 80s a financial guy named Charles Givens had some infomercials. I bought his book “Wealth without Risk” and slowly started to take steps to save and invest. My parents didn’t have these skills. I didn’t learn them in high school or technical school. I wanted to be able to sleep soundly at night. For me, that meant knowing I had money in the bank and my bills paid. These days a wealth of financial info is available online. 

I remember once when I was a kindergarten aide, the teacher was asking each child to name something they were afraid of. She called on me, too, and jokingly I whispered to her, “ I don’t think the kids would know what ‘financial ruin’ is.” 

 

 

[sableduck]

7 hours ago, Grace said:

The possible widow-with-no-income is fairly easy to solve for young people. Get enough life insurance! I am not a Dave Ramsey fan but definitely agree with his plan to insure the working parents high enough that interest on the payout will replace their income. I'd even go a step further and insure both parents for the highest income amount so the working parent can take a break and be home with their grieving children as long as they need. It would be extra awful for kids used to spending all day with mom to suddenly be thrust into daycare.

This is what we did. I worked part time but we insured both of us to the highest we could afford and increased it as our financial situation continued to improve.  Our goal wasn’t just financial security but also so that the surviving parent could take as much time needed to be with the kids and give them whatever stability was possible.  I work full time now, but that was a consideration when we had babies/toddlers, even though I only worked part time then.

[feministxtian]

4 hours ago, Cam said:

On the sahm topic:  I highly recommend watching the film  “Picture a Scientist” on Netflix. This well made film is about the discrimination women in the STEM* fields deal with. STEM college classes are 3/4 filled with women, yet after graduation and internships, only about 1/4 of these women remain in this chosen field. This is known as “the leaky pipeline”. Studies show that sexual harassment and other offensive behaviors propel women away from staying in these male dominated careers. The film tells the personal stories of several female scientists, including an MIT molecular biologist, and the different types of harassment and discrimination they faced on the job and how they dealt with it. Very well told.

Women in STEM need to grow thick skins. I'm not saying it's right but its the way it is. I survived through my career mostly because I'm a thick skinned, sarcastic bitch who isn't easily intimidated. Its not as overt as it used to be but it's still there, like the belief that a woman's IQ is an inverse function of her chest size. There are ways to ameliorate some of it but when I express my views, I get beat down in a huge way. One of the issues, that I cannot confirm is really that prevalent, is that some women go into STEM to "go hunting". That is, they go into the field to find an educated husband who is on a great career path. I have seen it. 

It will take a long time to root out the issues in STEM. I'm currently trying to get more girls involved in my classes at the high school level but it's a hard climb. 

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, sableduck said:

This is what we did. I worked part time but we insured both of us to the highest we could afford and increased it as our financial situation continued to improve.  Our goal wasn’t just financial security but also so that the surviving parent could take as much time needed to be with the kids and give them whatever stability was possible.  I work full time now, but that was a consideration when we had babies/toddlers, even though I only worked part time then.

Yes, we did this too. Since I am no longer working, I now only carry the minimum life insurance (kids grown and long gone). My husband still works, although he is months from retirement too, so we’ll lower his once he’s retired. Barring global financial meltdown (GD Putin), we are set and secure.

[just_ordinary]

23 hours ago, Smee said:

After a decade being a SAHM, I’m currently getting divorced. I’ve been fine with mowing the lawn, getting the car serviced, keeping track of bills etc, but finding a way to work while getting my kids to & from school on time is a whole different ball game. I’m also 1/3 way through my PhD and don’t want to have to quit but don’t know how I can find the time to study and work and raise kids and keep the house clean on my own. Technically, my ex husband and I have the same qualifications for the same industry. In fact I finished my undergrad before him and worked to support him while he studied for the first year of our marriage. But even not including childcare before/after school and any costs to get accreditation renewed, if I went back to the same job full time tomorrow, my earning capacity would be ~$40K/year less than his. It wasn’t supposed to matter so much, because we were supposed to be on shared finances. When we were married, we talked a few times about how once we’d started on the path of me as primary caregiver it became less and less possible for us to swap roles without taking a bigger and bigger financial hit. Now, though, we’re going through a divorce settlement and when my lawyer argues that I should get more than 50% of shared assets because of reduced earning capacity and retirement savings from all that time raising our kids and supporting his career, he argues that was my choice (uh, it was OUR choice).

Thank God I’m not in America and I don’t have to worry about health insurance on top of everything else.

I am very sorry. I don’t know your whole situation, but from what I experience around me, people in similar situations try a 50/50 approach to children. So they alternate one week with mum and one with dad. It’s only working well if both parties live close enough/the same school district and put tons of work in it. (And childrens age. You wouldn’t do it with infants but most try from age 4-6.) You obviously have to talk more and be more amicable than just having an “every second weekend drop off”. It’s hard though and not every post-divorce relationship gets there. And obviously sometimes circumstances make it impossible. Most parents hate the fact/idea to only have their child part time. But under normal circumstances (both in the area, not abusive or whatever…) both should still do their job as a parent and be there for all the little things parenting involves. I would argue children have a right to be parented by both parents as well. Obviously your ex would need to be willing (which happens more and more here and I believe it has to do with fathers being more involved due to women just expecting it and tools like joined parental leave. Only spending time with your child every second weekend will definitely give you a raised eyebrow if there isn’t a really good explanation. So some social pressure helped as well).

As I said, I see it more and more, and it can turn out great for everyone involved or you just change back to a more traditional set up if it doesn’t. It’s definitely harder on the divorced partners emotionally in the beginning. You have to rise above hurt and anger, but it might be something to try maybe.
Apart from freeing up time for yourself though, it balances out some other things. Naturally, the partner that doesn’t have the child as much, could and often does easily dump all the managing parts on the other one. Medical check ups, organising stuff for school trips, after school activities, dealing with homework or household chores, all the little purchases that add up, and they can live in a smaller space which cuts down your costs because the child does not have as many toys, clothes, a desk, maybe not even their own room there. You need less food, water and electricity, gas (to drive them around)….. There are many angles to this.

It’s always interesting to see how men are sometimes are a bit/massively inconsiderate as to how complicated and stressful juggling all of this is. A steep learning curve I say. 
 

And as a mother it’s obviously extra hard to get over the idea, that you are a horrible, cold and unloving parent if your child is not with you all the time. This narrative is still extremely strong and deeply ingrained. It mixes with the natural instinct to obviously have your child with you (the stronger the younger they are), so it’s hard to distinguish between the natural pain you feel, not having them with you every second week and the bad feelings all those clichés and social norms add on top.

Edited March 14, 2022 by just_ordinary

[GreenBeans]

26 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

Apart from freeing up time for yourself though, it balances out some other things. Naturally, the partner that doesn’t have the child as much, could and often does easily dump all the managing parts on the other one. Medical check ups, organising stuff for school trips, after school activities, dealing with homework or household chores, all the little purchases that add up, and they can live in a smaller space which cuts down your costs because the child does not have as many toys, clothes, a desk, maybe not even their own room there. You need less food, water and electricity, gas (to drive them around)….. There are many angles to this.

I think overall, the 50/50 model is more expensive, though, because both parents need to have a place big enough for a child to actually live there (vs. just visiting every other weekend). And I think at least here it means there is no obligation to pay child support in that model - which means the parent with the better paid job will have an advantage. Often it results in the mom still managing things in “her” week, working minimum wage (because she stayed at home during the marriage and dad got to work and be promoted) and still having (at least) 50% of child care work and costs of raising a child with zero child support paid by ex husband.