General "dangerous misconceptions" thread

[NurseNell]

Here is my pet peeve Catholic misconception: The Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception, the feast of which is my birthday and Pearl Harbor Day, is the Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary without Original Sin on her soul. Oringinal Sin, of course, being the Fall of Adam and Eve. It is not her being a virgin when conceiving Jesus. That is The Virgin Birth.

That is my biggest pet peeve too. So many people think it means virgin birth. Even a few well known fiction authors have used it incorrectly. And sadly even a lot of Catholics don't understand it.

[emmiedahl]

I am going to ask my husband if he knows when he gets home. He knows everything about the Catholic Church, but then I thought I pretty much knew it all as well. In that case, I totally believe in the Immaculate Conception--for everyone. Just because I don't usually attribute a moral status to single celled organisms.

[treemom]

I was totally unware that is what immaculate conception meant. So Mary was exempt from original sin? Why? Seriously? WHy?

[debrand]

I was totally unware that is what immaculate conception meant. So Mary was exempt from original sin? Why? Seriously? WHy?

Okay. I think that I can answer this. This is what I learned from the Catholic Answers forum.

In the Old Testament, the ark that carried the Ten Commandments could be touched only by a select few. There is a biblical story about a man who put out his hand to keep the ark from falling to the ground and was struck dead. That is how important the vessel for carrying something holy is considered.

Mary carried GOD in her body. In order to do that, she would need to be sinless. It isn't about Mary being perfect, but Jesus. Just like the ark had to be worthy to carry the Ten Commandments, Mary had to be worthy to carry Jesus/God. So Jesus saved her before her birth and original sin didn't apply to her.

I am explaining that badly but it is actually logical from a Catholic viewpoint.

[dawbs]

I was totally unware that is what immaculate conception meant. So Mary was exempt from original sin? Why? Seriously? WHy?

I'm totally under qualified to answer this but I've discussed it at length w/ people (after I had the "immaculate conception =/= virgin birth" discussion ad nauseum)...

It helps if you think of 'original sin' as almost being genetic.

So Adam and Eve and everyone since = a carrier of the 'stain' original sin.

So 'from conception' every human being w/ human parents has original sin. They then sin in their own right, but the 'original sin' would be there even if they didn't.

Well, if Mary was a genetic carrier of original sin, then Jesus would, of course, be a carrier of original sin--what w/ getting half of his genetic makeup from her (and half from God). Can't have that--he's to be sinless andthat 'stain' isn't allowed.

So Jesus' grandparents had to basically, when Mary was conceived, have a giant 'genetic mutation (immaculate conception)' so she wouldn't be a carrier.

Mary could still sin in her own-right, as a human being who ins, but didn't have that 'stain' and so, couldn't pass on that stain.

(please though, I defer to people who are actually Catholic who can give a better explanation that doesn't try to marry science/biology w/ theology in a bastardized explanation.)

[kaetrin]

I'm not completely well versed in it, either, but the Eastern Orthodox don't have a doctrine of Immaculate Conception because we don't believe in original sin by the Catholic definition. So for us, Mary was born just like the rest of us and still managed to be sinless. It's actually a really big difference between Catholic and Orthodox view of the status of the human person (which again, I don't understand quite well enough to attempt a longer explanation here). It's something like: We are all born into an environment which tends to encourage the indulgence of the passions (potentially sinful impulses - pride, greed, etc.), and we have personal weaknesses that make us prone to do so, but we aren't tainted in our very being by the original sin of Adam. So the humanity that Christ took on from Mary was by nature as sinless as anyone else's. The difference is that neither of them ever sinned in their own right.

[dawbs]

I'm not completely well versed in it, either, but the Eastern Orthodox don't have a doctrine of Immaculate Conception because we don't believe in original sin by the Catholic definition. So for us, Mary was born just like the rest of us and still managed to be sinless. It's actually a really big difference between Catholic and Orthodox view of the status of the human person (which again, I don't understand quite well enough to attempt a longer explanation here). It's something like: We are all born into an environment which tends to encourage the indulgence of the passions (potentially sinful impulses - pride, greed, etc.), and we have personal weaknesses that make us prone to do so, but we aren't tainted in our very being by the original sin of Adam. So the humanity that Christ took on from Mary was by nature as sinless as anyone else's. The difference is that neither of them ever sinned in their own right.

Can we do an "ask an Eastern Orthodox' moment and say...so Mary is sinless in that tradition? Not just w/o original sin, but w/o sin? (because I think they're pretty different)

Does EO also believe in the perpetual virginity thing for Mary?

[kaetrin]

Can we do an "ask an Eastern Orthodox' moment and say...so Mary is sinless in that tradition? Not just w/o original sin, but w/o sin? (because I think they're pretty different)

Does EO also believe in the perpetual virginity thing for Mary?

Perpetual virginity, absolutely. Sinless, I'm pretty sure but could be wrong as it's certainly a high claim. Her formal title in the liturgy is "Our All-holy, immaculate, most blessed and glorified Lady, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary."

Of course the theological implications of her sinlessness are troubling to Protestants who say that can't be the case or else she wouldn't need to be saved. I think the answer lies in the complex Orthodox view of sin and salvation. We don't think that salvation is essentially defined as being delivered from sin, although this is part of it; rather, it is the attainment of our full humanity in communion with God, which we call theosis. Therefore even if someone managed to live without sinning, she would still need the work of Jesus in his Incarnation, which broke down the barrier between divine and human. In this understanding, even Adam and Eve before the fall would have needed the Incarnation to perfect them. I.e. they were sinless but still imperfect. (This also avoids the theological problem of the "fortunate fall" -- i.e. that sin was somehow necessary because it brought about the Incarnation.) I get most of my understanding of this from Irenaeus of Lyons although he is far from systematic.

Does that answer? Catholic and Orthodox views on Mary are all very deeply implicated in other theological commitments so it's hard to be brief and comprehensive.

[dawbs]

Makes sense.

Boggles my mind a bit, but my 'own' protestant theology does too.

(I read a lot of Catholic theology for English Lit classes. I suppose I should break down and do some reading on Orthodoxy. Eventually.)

[treemom]

Okay. I think that I can answer this. This is what I learned from the Catholic Answers forum.

In the Old Testament, the ark that carried the Ten Commandments could be touched only by a select few. There is a biblical story about a man who put out his hand to keep the ark from falling to the ground and was struck dead. That is how important the vessel for carrying something holy is considered.

Mary carried GOD in her body. In order to do that, she would need to be sinless. It isn't about Mary being perfect, but Jesus. Just like the ark had to be worthy to carry the Ten Commandments, Mary had to be worthy to carry Jesus/God. So Jesus saved her before her birth and original sin didn't apply to her.

I am explaining that badly but it is actually logical from a Catholic viewpoint.

Except god chose mary, so effectively yet again he is a god who plays favorites?

[Bookworm]

To me there is a huge, glaring problem with the doctrine that Mary was without sin - I was brought up believing that we needed a perfect Savior, someone had never sinned, because that was the only sacrifice "good enough." But, if Mary was perfect, why couldn't she be the sacrifice? Not that I am at all wishing that on anyone, but really, what's with the redundancy?

[Austin]

In a patriarchal religion, I don't know if a perfect female would count for as much as a perfect male.

[xDreamerx]

I think the Immaculate Conception trips a lot of people up, because of simple word choice. We all know what conception is and how it happens but place the word 'immaculate' in front and people think, clean, spotless, perfection...thus, virginal.

Someone mentioned Mary being sinless and that's why she was able to carry God. This is interesting because the Greek word often used to refer to her, Theotokos, means God container.

Also, the Greek translations of the Bible around the time of the Septuagint, don't use the word for virgin, they use a word meaning a girl of marriageable age.

I personally don't think that the Virgin Birth was intended to be taken literally, it was more a remark on the state of Jesus. But, that's just my opinion. That's also a non-canonical story in the Book of James suggesting that Mary was born of a virgin as well.

[Turtle]

To me there is a huge, glaring problem with the doctrine that Mary was without sin - I was brought up believing that we needed a perfect Savior, someone had never sinned, because that was the only sacrifice "good enough." But, if Mary was perfect, why couldn't she be the sacrifice? Not that I am at all wishing that on anyone, but really, what's with the redundancy?

For Catholic theology, the Savior had to be God incarnate. Perfection/sinless wasn't the criteria.

[bionicmlle]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

(and I don't believe for myself that bible stories are trufax)

Mary wasn't a virgin!? as in intact hymen? Ever since I was an adolescent I had this scary image of her hymen being burst from the inside by a baby head (yes,I realized as I went through puberty that most women don't actually have intact hymens, the image of it still haunts me) and wondered why Joseph wasn't getting all up in there after they got married.

[Angri-la]

In additon, I believe (as in additon I think I recall, not this is a tenet of my faith: Mary did not die, but was, rather, assumed, full bodied, into heaven. Even her Son had to die and be ressurected before ascending to Heaven. Feast of The Assumption.

I forgot to mention in my earlier post that, yes, being immaculately conceived made Mary the "vessel of The Lord".

I used to feel sad that she was pregnant, but didn't get to have an fun to get that way.