General "dangerous misconceptions" thread

[MamaJunebug]

Since I'm a big baby and I want Knight to keep dishing over in "I'm a VF/ATI insider, ask me anything," I'm starting this topic as a place to discuss misconceptions of any sort.

I'm gonna start with the current back-and-forth that's going on at the "insider" topic about the actual Roman Catholic position on the Blessed Virgin Mary and prayer and saints.

Several good friends who are also earnest members of the Roman church have corrected me on my own misconceptions. They tell me that in actuality:

1. RC's don't worship Mary nor do they deify her (make her a God).

They do venerate her (hold her in the highest honor).

They are vaguely aware of some in the RC church who would name Mary as co-redemptrix right along with Jesus Christ. They are even aware that the late Pope John Paul II was close to that, if not exactly on it. They don't grok that at all.

2. RC's don't pray to Mary or the saints.

I'm still not clear on this, which is more my failure to comprehend than theirs to explain, but I think it's this way: They do ask the saints and Mary to put in a good word, as it were, with God.

A few years back, one of my Juniors was hecka sick. H-e-c-k-a. I found myself, as I prayed, also calling on my parents (who I believe are in Heaven) and saying, "Mom, Dad, please, help me out here, you're up there with Him..."

Humbling, when I remembered that as my RC friends were trying to explain the basis of their communicaiton with the saints...

I wasn't praying to my folks as I pray to God! But as I was asking friends on Earth to pray for the Junior, I was asking Big Mama and Big Daddy JB to do so, too.

(The Junior made a complete recovery. Miraculous was the only word. Which is neither here nor there to the point of clearing up misconceptions, but I figured some of y'all would be curious to know. )

Also, any Roman Catholic FJians, please correct me where I'm wrong in the above.

Thanks everybody for considering usign this topic for its purpose. :)

[tehgoobster]

I used to be Catholic. Catholics generally believe that since Mary and the saints are in Heaven, they're closer to God and are no longer bogged down by sin and earthly distraction. Christians ask other Christians to pray for them, and Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that praying to Mary and the saints is more or less just asking them to take their prayers to God. They typically use a few passages from the Bible (along with Church history) to justify this.

ETA: I think it's a good idea to start a separate thread for the side discussions that were taking place on Knight's thread.

[3 is enough]

They do ask the saints and Mary to put in a good word, as it were, with God.

Nicely put.

I am a cradle Catholic, and this is pretty much what we were taught.

We ask the Saints and Mary to intercede on our behalf, because God is a pretty busy guy.

[Alecto]

Nicely put.

I am a cradle Catholic, and this is pretty much what we were taught.

We ask the Saints and Mary to intercede on our behalf, because God is a pretty busy guy.

See, I was taught by my Catholic relatives that what you were doing was asking Mary/Saints to pray for you, much like you'd ask a friend or family member. Since they were in heaven, they had all the time in the world to devote to praying.

Was that wrong?

[3 is enough]

No, I don't think that was wrong at all. I guess the thinking is that asking the saints to pray for you is a gives you a better chance of getting your prayers answered, because they have God's ear, as it were.

[CanadianHippie]

Nicely put.

I am a cradle Catholic, and this is pretty much what we were taught.

We ask the Saints and Mary to intercede on our behalf, because God is a pretty busy guy.

You mean he doesn't have enough time on his hands to listen too and answer every. Single. Prayer. About. Every. Single. Mundane. Thing. Ever! You know, like getting a chance to see a squirrel, or get a new bike?

[fundyfunland]

See, I was taught by my Catholic relatives that what you were doing was asking Mary/Saints to pray for you, much like you'd ask a friend or family member. Since they were in heaven, they had all the time in the world to devote to praying.

Was that wrong?

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic elementary school, churce every Sunday. I must have slept through my education b/c I was told that no one talks to God directly, but instead, talks to Jesus...who passes the messages along to God, I guess. I was also told you can pray to the saints for the same reason. Basically, the saints & Jesus are God's phone operators/recptionist at a big company....make your case to the receptionist & your request might get thru to the Big Guy.

Of course, like I said, I probably slept a lot, b/c I also believed at that time that Adam & Eve walked the earth with dinosaurs. Sooo.....yeah.....

[DamnPrecious]

I think that issues with hitting up saints and Mary comes from at least this verse.

John 14:6

King James Version (KJV)

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[Guest Anonymous]

Since I'm a big baby and I want Knight to keep dishing over in "I'm a VF/ATI insider, ask me anything," I'm starting this topic as a place to discuss misconceptions of any sort.

I'm gonna start with the current back-and-forth that's going on at the "insider" topic about the actual Roman Catholic position on the Blessed Virgin Mary and prayer and saints.

Several good friends who are also earnest members of the Roman church have corrected me on my own misconceptions. They tell me that in actuality:

1. RC's don't worship Mary nor do they deify her (make her a God).

They do venerate her (hold her in the highest honor).

They are vaguely aware of some in the RC church who would name Mary as co-redemptrix right along with Jesus Christ. They are even aware that the late Pope John Paul II was close to that, if not exactly on it. They don't grok that at all.

2. RC's don't pray to Mary or the saints.

I'm still not clear on this, which is more my failure to comprehend than theirs to explain, but I think it's this way: They do ask the saints and Mary to put in a good word, as it were, with God.

A few years back, one of my Juniors was hecka sick. H-e-c-k-a. I found myself, as I prayed, also calling on my parents (who I believe are in Heaven) and saying, "Mom, Dad, please, help me out here, you're up there with Him..."

Humbling, when I remembered that as my RC friends were trying to explain the basis of their communicaiton with the saints...

I wasn't praying to my folks as I pray to God! But as I was asking friends on Earth to pray for the Junior, I was asking Big Mama and Big Daddy JB to do so, too.

(The Junior made a complete recovery. Miraculous was the only word. Which is neither here nor there to the point of clearing up misconceptions, but I figured some of y'all would be curious to know. )

Also, any Roman Catholic FJians, please correct me where I'm wrong in the above.

Thanks everybody for considering usign this topic for its purpose. :)

Can you please clarify what this thread is about? The last sentence, which I've emboldened, sounds like a pre-emptive handslap for anyone who goes off topic. :P But I am not sure what the purpose of the topic is? Is this the 'Ask a Catholic' thread?

[treemom]

Yeah I still plan to confront knight about his misconceptions over there, like the idea that sleeping is a small part of your life.

[Prek teach]

Mary and the saints I was taught when I was a Catholic do intercede on our behalf. They are not worshiped as God may be, but are held in high-esteem for their sacrifices. Like another poster mentioned, they have God's ear. Here is the Litany of theVirgin Mary from the prayer book my grandmother received upon her confirmation in 1922:

We fly to they patronage O Holy Mother of God.

Despise not our petitions in our neccessities;but deliver us from all dangers, O ever glorious and blessed Virgin.

Lord have mercy on us.

Christ hae mercy on us.

Lord have mercy on us.

Jesus hear us.

Jesus graciously hear us.

God the father of heaven, have mercy on us.

God the Son Redeemer of the world, have mercy on us.

God, the Holy Ghost, have mercy on us.

Holy Trinity, One God, have mercy on us.

Holy Mary, pray for us.

Holy Mother of God, pray for us.

Holy Virgin of virgins, pray for us.

Mother of Christ, pray for us.

Mother of divine grace, pray for us.

Mother most pure, pray for us.

Mother most chaste, pray for us.

Mother most inviolate, pray for us.

And the liturgy continues with Mother most: undefiled, most amiable, admirable, of good Counsel, of our Creator, of our Savior, most prudent, most venerable, most reknowned, most powerful, most merciful, most faithful, Mirror of Justice, Seat of wisdom, Cause of our joy, Spiritual vessel, vessel of honor, singular vessel of devotion, mystical rose, tower of David, tower of ivory, house of gold, ark of the covenant, gate of heaven, morning star, health of the sick, refuge of sinners, comfortor of the afflicted, help of Christians, Queen of Angels, Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of the Prophets, Queen of the Apostles, Queen of Martyrs, Queen of Confessors, Queen of Virgins, Queen of Saints, Queen conceived without original sin, Queen of the most holy Rosary,

Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world,

Spare us O Lord

Pray for us O Holy Mother of God that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

[emmiedahl]

I would like to address the dangerous misconception that educated=able to recite fact.

I was taught to memorize and recite facts throughout elementary and high school. I am very good at it. The difference in college, for me at least, was being asked to analyze facts, being called on my biases and flawed thinking, etc. I guess this is my main issue with CollegePlus and also with calling Doug an intellectual. To me, an intellectual is someone who has a certain amount of analytical abilities. I am not saying I am perfect, people here at FJ have called me out on things I have said that were nonsense. That leads me to the other part of being an intellectual: being able to be wrong, which is something that I learned in college. That humbling moment when you realize that even your big, fact-filled brain might approach something from the wrong perspective. I still like to think that I am right about many things, but I am aware that even my most dearly held opinions could be proven wrong at any moment. I am always prepared to change the way I approach things.

[finleeport]

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, we pray to Mary and the Saints because they are the favorites of God (that's how it was explained to me) they devoted their whole lives to holiness and prayer. The Virgin Mary is above all of them because she was after all the one who gave birth to Christ. We prayer to her because she is a Mother to God, She is more compassionate and humanitarian. Not saying God or Jesus isn't, but he is suppose to be just. Mary prays very much for the salvation of the earth because she feels empathy towards humans because she was human. We describe her in some of our prayers with bleeding knees from too much kneeling and praying. Our prayers could be answered by him alone, but it helps when we pray to his devoted saints to pray on our behalf, God wouldn't say no to them but he would definitely never say no to his Mother.

Besides, even if Protestant extreme fundies don't like Catholics/Orthodox praying to her because she was just some sort of vessel to give birth to Christ and then be ignored as if she was nothing.

God "Hey! Mary, I want you to have my son and afterwards I want nothing to do with you"

That's a fine way to treat a woman, a lady in fact. and come to think of it, it would sound like God deserves all the attention and success to himself. That would make him sound totally self-centered.

And I say this as a Christian!

[Beeks]

I get that asking a saint to pray for you is kind of like asking a friend to pray for you, but then here's my question: if Mary and the saints don't have any special godlike status and asking them to pray for you is really no big deal, then why the hoopla surrounding making people saints? What does it really mean when the pope saints somebody?

[NurseNell]

I get that asking a saint to pray for you is kind of like asking a friend to pray for you, but then here's my question: if Mary and the saints don't have any special godlike status and asking them to pray for you is really no big deal, then why the hoopla surrounding making people saints? What does it really mean when the pope saints somebody?

At its most basic it means the Church says the person is in heaven. In order to be declared a saint a certain number of confirmed miracles must be attributed to the dead person. A priest called the devil's advocate is called upon to say why the person shouldn't be named a saint at a given point in time. This is a very basic explanation. Go to google for more detailed explanations. I thought I read that the role of the devil's advocate had been done away with.

I would like to see Archbishop Oscar Romero of El Salvador named a saint but it won't happen under our current dictator pope.

[Turtle]

I think that issues with hitting up saints and Mary comes from at least this verse.

John 14:6

King James Version (KJV)

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The context of this verse isn't about prayer or intercession though, it is about going to heaven. So I don't know why fundies would use this to knock the Catholic tradition of asking the intercession of Mary/saints...except that they like to pull random verses out of context and pretend that it "proves" their point.

ETA: I totally agree re: memorizing facts does not equal educated. There is a difference between being able to read the sparknotes and answer questions about the plot of a text and being able to have an intelligent discussion/argument about that text.

[Kitchen Princess]

I get that asking a saint to pray for you is kind of like asking a friend to pray for you, but then here's my question: if Mary and the saints don't have any special godlike status and asking them to pray for you is really no big deal, then why the hoopla surrounding making people saints? What does it really mean when the pope saints somebody?

Role models, I would guess.

The way I look at it is that to be separated from God is to be dead. Since the saints and family members in heaven are not separated from God, then they're still alive...just on another plane. So talking to them in prayer, asking them to pray for you, whatever, is just like talking to the person beside you on the couch.

I think the definition of prayer is sometimes hindered by the widely held belief that it requires an object of worship to be a prayer (God being the most obvious object). I believe prayer can be any kind of mindful intention, meditation, etc., without involving an object of worship. I prefer to call what I do "intention", and since I'm an atheist, the object of my intention is the specific thing I am thinking/speaking about. If you ask me to pray for you and I agree, you would be wrong to think I was asking God on your behalf, but I'd let you think that, because I don't care what it means to you.

[xDreamerx]

First, as someone who was raised Anglican, thank-you! Every time this topic comes up I find myself slightly annoyed and wanting to correct people. This should be a sticky or something just to save aggravation.

I think one of the appealing and enduring things about Saints is that they were people, people who lived exceptional lives but still people. They seem closer and more relatable than the abstract and daunting notion of God. Also, as Creaky Steel said they serve as role models I think because people think, "Well if she managed to do ___, than surely I can ___." It might give people hope and sense of determination or perseverance in hardships.

[DistantStar]

I am a brand-new baby Episcopalian, as in I have waaaaaay more questions than answers but have been seduced, as it were, by the ritual and community. Which means mostly that I am now on the mailing list. And if I want to be confirmed I can, though I have an awful lot of thinking to do before I take a step like that.

I need to ask our priest about the saint issue. I remain absolutely unconvinced on any afterlife scenario but admit to liking the idea of saints being regular people (who, presumably, did exceptional things) who are in a better situation to get God's ear. As it were. I just don't know if I could really believe that it actually works that way, but as some sort of metaphor, I like it.

However, I'm still paganish enough that if I thought Catholics worshipped Mary, I wouldn't really mind. I am all about the divine feminine. One of the things that got me about this church was when our priest said he likes to think of the Holy Spirit as female. It's like he was baiting me that morning. Nevertheless, I don't understand people who deliberately misunderstand other people's religions. Ignorance is one thing, refusing to listen when given factual information is another.

[MamaJunebug]

Can you please clarify what this thread is about? The last sentence, which I've emboldened, sounds like a pre-emptive handslap for anyone who goes off topic. But I am not sure what the purpose of the topic is? Is this the 'Ask a Catholic' thread?

Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:44 am

Fair question! :D It's turning into an "ask the Catholic" topic but it could also be for dangerous misconceptions that arise elsewhere, or in Knight's "I'm a VF/ATI'er ask me" topic.

I guess most of them might come up when Knight makes statements like "Roman Catholics worship Mary and pray to saints."

So in short, it could be "dangerous misconceptions held by VF'ers. And that could include misconceptions about other denominations than Presby/Reformed, or about philosophies like feminism.

Whereas that frees Knight's thread for yakety about the VF muckers.

I'm sorry, my TSU needs the 'puter like babies need milk, so I gotta go! ;)

[finleeport]

I for one am proud to call Mary the Queen of Heaven. I just don't understand why Christianity has to be so male-centered?

[xDreamerx]

The thing is, it doesn't have to be. There are lots of groups out there trying to incorporate aspects of divine feminine into Christianity. There's even something called Trinitarian Wicca. I'll dig through my bookmarks and see what I can find.

http://www.herchurch.org/

This is a Lutheran website.

This next one is a group of feminist Catholics. The website name pretty much explains it:

http://www.womenpriests.org/index.asp

There are those who have adapted the rosary and incorporated the Goddess aspect:

http://www.northernway.org/rosary.html

There are even those who incorporate Mary Magdalene (I know, she's controversial because of Dan Brown and everyone wants to make her Mrs. Jesus...*sigh* I'm not saying I think that...I'm just offering ideas to consider).

http://blog.marymagdalenewithin.com/

There's also an entire slue of Feminist Biblical Criticism and The Feminist Companion to the Bible series (some books are on Amazon, there's one for every Bible book). I would recommend reading Phyllis Trible and Mary Daly...mind you Feminist Biblical Criticism started in the 70s so some of it might be dated...but if you're interested there's a world of scholarship out there.

[BloodyIbiza]

It's also important to understand that there is A LOT of variety in RC- much more than the vatican would like.

There are a lot of" cultural" differences as well. I find that North-american/Anglo RC is widely different in practice than , let's say, Latin American RC. Also, what priests/bishops preach is not exactly how 'lay' people experience and understand Catholicism.

I grew up believing that Mary and the saints would intercede/look out for people- either with jesus or god; and/or operate their own 'miracles'. The idea being that they are more 'Human' and closer to 'normal' people' than God or Jesus. And, saints would focus in specific 'areas' ( e.g. St. Antony is patron of marriages).

[Angri-la]

Here is my pet peeve Catholic misconception: The Immaculae Conception. The Immaculate Conception, the feast of which is my birthday and Pearl Harbor Day, is the Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary without Original Sin on her soul. Oringinal Sin, of course, being the Fall of Adam and Eve. It is not her being a virgin when conceiving Jesus. That is The Virgin Birth.

My own Irish Catholic MBA having father and I argued this, quite memorably, one Christmas. It was the one time he's every said "I was wrong; you were right!" I was steeped heavily in the Catholic faith, educated, confirmed in a church that barely recognized Vatican II. I always thought of praying to Mary and the Saints as one would talk to the friends of a boy I likd: the more people talking about me, the better. I was a teen.

I've left the Catholic Church, but I still catch myself saying a 'Hail Mary' when I am really scared.

[Deleted03]

I used to be Catholic. Catholics generally believe that since Mary and the saints are in Heaven, they're closer to God and are no longer bogged down by sin and earthly distraction. Christians ask other Christians to pray for them, and Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that praying to Mary and the saints is more or less just asking them to take their prayers to God. They typically use a few passages from the Bible (along with Church history) to justify this.

ETA: I think it's a good idea to start a separate thread for the side discussions that were taking place on Knight's thread.

Don't prayers count as earthly distractions?

:P