Meghan and Harry 6: Everything about this Is Kind of Cringe

[tabitha2]

Well she was a liar. We know she told a pointless lie at least once about being married  legally in private . The stuff she said about asking for therapy and being told no doesn’t exactly pass the smell test either for Many already discussed  reasons 

 

The drama queen and attention seeking in a matter of opinion.

[Xanariel]

I don't think Meghan owes anyone information about her private mental health and any help she may have sought for it. 

But I am pretty curious about the claims she and Harry made about being denied support for their struggles when part of the BRF, because some stuff seems a bit contradictory to their previous statements and actions. 

2017 - Harry fronts a mental health campaign with William and Kate, saying it's OK not to be OK, praising the benefits therapy has brought him and mentioning William specifically encouraged him to go. We already know Charles sent him to rehab for his drinking as a teen. We also find out later that Kate's brother has been battling severe depression and she has attended therapy sessions with him as support. 

Harry however also claims that he didn't tell his family about Meghan's struggles because he was ashamed (because, naturally, his wife's health issues are all about him). He doesn't mention actually explaining to them how badly she was struggling, but we presume he did, as it's apparently their fault she couldn't get help. 

There's no mention of why Meghan didn't go the normal route of accessing mental health in the UK - contacting her GP for help and a referral, or discussing her depression with the health visitor who would have attended her after Archie's birth. Nor is there a reason given why Meghan could not have booked herself into a private health facility.

She says she couldn't get an Uber from the Palace; why she couldn't have Harry drive her and give strict instructions to the confidentiality-bound staff that only he was to be given any info about her situation is a bit beyond me. She apparently doesn't need the Palace's permission to jet off to a optically awful $500k baby shower, hire her own PR firm or plan deals with Quibi, all of which they didn't want her to do - but the BRF nonsensically refuse her permission to get treatment and Meghan suddenly can't go against them? 

There's also Harry saying how burned out and unhappy he was doing royal tours (the optics of a multi-millionaire prince complaining about having to go to Nepal alone is not great) - when he and Meghan repeatedly complained they deserved greater roles in the family, declared that they would retain the ability to act as royals and keep their patronages, threw a strop over William's family getting any opportunities - like the photo of the heirs that no other grandchildren were included in - and being infuriated over Archie not being a prince. 

It just reads more and more that they wanted all the perks of the job, but the family expecting them to actually carry out any functions they didn't want to was heartless and cruel. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Xanariel

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 hours ago, Xanariel said:

Harry however also claims that he didn't tell his family about Meghan's struggles because he was ashamed (because, naturally, his wife's health issues are all about him). He doesn't mention actually explaining to them how badly she was struggling, but we presume he did, as it's apparently their fault she couldn't get help. 

I haven't watched the interviews but those are very contradictory statements.

For the sake of argument lets say the BRF was ashamed of her need for psychiatric help, wouldn't it make more sense for them to protect their brand by getting her the help she needed and explain her absence (if inpatient was needed) with some official cover story?

Even if in this hypothetical they didn't care at all about her as a human being or Archie's mom, wouldn't that just be the only smart strategy from a PR standpoint?  If it comes out later they can say they supported her and the lie was to protect her privacy, which most people would see as a valid reason to lie.  As opposed to denying her help which, had it resulted in a suicide or even attempt, would have made them look like monsters if it got out she asked for help and was refused.

Does Harry offer a reason for why he thinks they denied her help?   Because I honestly can't think of how that could possibly benefit the family.

 

[FrumperedCat]

In all honesty I think it's one thing supporting a belief but another step in taking action. I think it's plausible that for all the work/action the Royal family takes they might be a bit blind or obtuse to Meghan's struggles. That doesn't excuse it however. But I think sometimes we all get caught up thinking we're the ones living the correct way. And in those circumstances it's easy enough to judge the "outsider" interrupting that "peace".

This doesn't excuse any responses to Meghan's mental health. If someone says things are bad then actions should be taken regardless of other opinions.

Edited May 22, 2021 by FrumperedCat

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, FrumperedCat said:

In all honesty I think it's one thing supporting a belief but another step in taking action. I think it's plausible that for all the work/action the Royal family takes they might be a bit blind or obtuse to Meghan's struggles. That doesn't excuse it however. But I think sometimes we all get caught up thinking we're the ones living the correct way. And in those circumstances it's easy enough to judge the "outsider" interrupting that "peace"

Blind would make sense, we don't always know when someone is struggling and even if someone is open others can minimize it without meaning to because it can be hard to understand.  I have family members of Charles/Camilla's generation who don't see mental health care as necessary except for drastic circumstances.  It's not out of malice, it's a lack of understanding from a different time.  Honestly, most well meaning people will miss signs of mental health struggles in those close to them a lot of the time.  

But isn't Harry saying they knew she was suicidal and forbid treatment?  Ignoring a direct request for treatment for that isn't blind, it's cruel and wanton disregard for her.

I agree so much with your last sentence.  It's something I know I need to keep in mind.

[Coconut Flan]

I can't get beyond that if Meghan wanted help all she had to do was tell her OB.  It isn't like she'd be denied assistance.  I'd expect any doctor she told would have immediately taken action given her position.  

[FrumperedCat]

12 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

But isn't Harry saying they knew she was suicidal and forbid treatment?  Ignoring a direct request for treatment for that isn't blind, it's cruel and wanton disregard for her.

Apologies, my thoughts are still slightly flip floppy on this topic. I suppose things must have been even more difficult for Meghan as I suppose she had no real medical team she could trust to access that level of help. After all if your medical team is provided by your husband and his wealthy, prestigious family you're going to feel pretty limited and trapped. This is running under my assumption that her medical care was provided by the Royal Family which I'd expect to be the case given the privacy issues. Therefore the situation seemingly gets dodgier.

Certainly being alone in a prestigious high profile family can't have been easy. The limitations, the rules, the lack of trust. I think that alone is enough to break many a person let alone the lack of privacy.

[Coconut Flan]

47 minutes ago, FrumperedCat said:

After all if your medical team is provided by your husband and his wealthy, prestigious family you're going to feel pretty limited and trapped. This is running under my assumption that her medical care was provided by the Royal Family which I'd expect to be the case given the privacy issues. Therefore the situation seemingly gets dodgier.

Were they or did she pick her own medical team just as she selected the hospital for the birth?

[EmCatlyn]

On 5/20/2021 at 5:28 PM, nausicaa said:

And I'm understanding about Harry still working through some stuff well into his thirties. ...  But running to air all of the dirty laundry and other people's business to the press is so unfair, immature, and distasteful. You can work through things in private. 

Yeah, I'm so confused on this one and why he is acting like he and Meghan are the first hands on parents in the history of the royal family. I thought that Harry had stated he really respected Kate's parenting skills? Her parents are very much in the picture, she seems very hands on, and the children seem kept from a lot of publicity. At least in the family context, it's always seemed pretty down-to-earth with the Cambridges (well, down-to-earth for rich people, obviously). I'm pretty sure Kate has changed diapers for all of her kids and could tell you their interests and favorite shows. So I don't know why Harry is acting like he is blazing some new trail here. 

No one is ever done “working things through.” (I am 66 and not done.) But after a certain point (hopefully before you are 20) you need to figure out (a) that other people have feelings too, and (b) that washing dirty linen in public is never conducive to clean linen.

I think Harry, like many younger siblings, has always been competitive towards his brother.  He may love William “to bits” but he wants to get more attention, praise, etc. than his brother.  He wants to feel that he does at least some things “better.”   Presenting himself as a more “hands on” parent, rejecting the idea of nannies, etc. is one of the ways he is claiming superiority.

Back when Harry was unmarried and getting some of the attention he craves from being close to William and Kate, Harry probably looked at Kate and admired her parenting.  Now that he is a parent himself and he and Meghan want attention focused on them, he reconsiders and decides their own way of parenting is superior. 

[EmCatlyn]

 

19 hours ago, Xanariel said:

And he's the future king, but clearly very angry with the state broadcaster. Given how Diana's paranoia led her to reject her royal security - security trained in dealing with car chases and not allowing a client to travel without a seat-belt - I think there's a haunting question about whether she'd have been in that situation in Paris without Bashir. 

I am so glad to see someone mention the seatbelt.  Diana died of internal injuries that probably would not have happened (or not been so severe) if she had been wearing a seatbelt.  People love to blame the paparazzi, and the drunk driver, but I rarely see a suggestion that Diana made some dumb choices.   

(This isn’t to blame her — a lot of us make bad choices. It is tragic that she paid such an awful price for her mistake[s], and the paparazzi and drunk driver were certainly not blameless. But I like to look at the big picture.)

I had never before considered that royal security might have reminded her to fasten her seatbelt or been better at dealing with the paparazzi.  Thanks for pointing that out.  

[Xanariel]

2 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

I had never before considered that royal security might have reminded her to fasten her seatbelt or been better at dealing with the paparazzi.  Thanks for pointing that out.  

I remember a few years back on one of the big anniversaries of her death, some of Diana's ex-staffers were being interviewed and one mentioned how distraught her old security team were. He said that they would never, ever have set off without making sure she was secured in the car on a normal drive, let alone when fleeing the paparazzi. 

There were a lot of factors in Diana's death. Another issue that perhaps wouldn't happen with royal protection officers was that Henri Paul, the acting head of security at Dodi's father's hotel, was not a chauffer and was drinking on the job, which was a fatal combination with a high-speed paparazzi chase. 

[Xanariel]

7 hours ago, FrumperedCat said:

Apologies, my thoughts are still slightly flip floppy on this topic. I suppose things must have been even more difficult for Meghan as I suppose she had no real medical team she could trust to access that level of help. After all if your medical team is provided by your husband and his wealthy, prestigious family you're going to feel pretty limited and trapped. This is running under my assumption that her medical care was provided by the Royal Family which I'd expect to be the case given the privacy issues. Therefore the situation seemingly gets dodgier.

Certainly being alone in a prestigious high profile family can't have been easy. The limitations, the rules, the lack of trust. I think that alone is enough to break many a person let alone the lack of privacy.

The BRF do have personal doctors, but not even the Queen is solely treated by them - they attend hospitals (very expensive private ones, but ones that anyone can pay to attend). Their doctors are still obliged to abide by UK standards, including those regarding patient confidentiality and appropriate treatment - they would be in breach if their suicidal, pregnant patient came to them and they denied her treatment. These doctors generally hold other jobs - the Head of the Medical Force in the royal household is normally a high-level consultant at one of the major hospitals. These aren't fundie-style midwives bound to the RF's rules. 

Kate gave birth at the private wing of a hospital, so her medical care was under their remit. Same with Meghan, who had Archie at the Portland Hospital. Both would have included the normal pre and post maternity care - which, among other things, involves a check of the mother's mental health and a discussion of the signs and help for post-natal depression. 

It just seems bizarre to me that Meghan is very happy to flout the normal way of doing things in the BRF - including hiring Sunshine Sachs as her personal PR team and running all her decisions through them instead of Kensington Palace, to the extent that the Palace press team said that they were finding out about stuff like Harry's Apple TV series when the Sussexes announced it to the press - but when her mental health was on the line, she and Harry were helpless to go around the malicious BRF, including accessing any of the care she would be legally entitled to as a resident of the UK? 

[WiseGirl]

I can't be the only one that is weary of Harry speaking to Oprah, can I? What does he hope to get out of publicly throwing his family under the bus? At what point is his therapist going to suggest that doing this may not be the way to heal or reconnect with family? But then, does he want to reconnect with his family? If not, may I kindly suggest he drop the prince title and become a very rich private citizen instead?  I can't figure out the end game for these two. If I don't ever have to hear from Oprah again, I would be fine with that. How a talk show host is put on a pedestal by so many is so baffling to me, just as baffling as how a failed reality show host with multiple marriages and affairs became president and is seen by so many as someone supporting Christian values..

[viii]

11 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

I can't get beyond that if Meghan wanted help all she had to do was tell her OB.  It isn't like she'd be denied assistance.  I'd expect any doctor she told would have immediately taken action given her position.  

We don’t know how Meghan was feeling, but I know from dealing with suicidal people that there is often heightened paranoia and the person is an unreliable narrator, firmly believing in their own minds that nobody cares, etc. There’s a good chance Meghan didn’t trust her doctor enough to speak about it while pregnant because she wasn’t mentally sound at the time. I don’t think she can be blamed for her decisions while she was in this dark period - she was clearly not thinking straight. 

The hard questions belong to Harry about why he didn’t have someone in the medical field he felt he could trust. However, his mental health was also taking a huge toll and I think it was really just a bad situation where two ill people fed off each other and the whole thing spiraled. 

[Coconut Flan]

1 hour ago, viii said:

We don’t know how Meghan was feeling, but I know from dealing with suicidal people that there is often heightened paranoia and the person is an unreliable narrator, firmly believing in their own minds that nobody cares, etc. There’s a good chance Meghan didn’t trust her doctor enough to speak about it while pregnant because she wasn’t mentally sound at the time. I don’t think she can be blamed for her decisions while she was in this dark period - she was clearly not thinking straight. 

Yet she said she went to the BRF HR.  That sounds completely suspect to me.  Why go to HR and not the doctor you supposedly trust to deliver your baby or make an appointment with one of the other doctors.  Yes, I've had two family members succeed in their suicide attempts and know that they aren't thinking rationally.  There were so many options she could have taken and yet the one she said she took was to me the least likely to help. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Coconut Flan

[truthseeker]

Anyone else curious about Samantha Markle's recent silence?  I would have expected her to have had plenty to say in the last couple weeks, but ... nothing.

 

[Xanariel]

59 minutes ago, viii said:

However, his mental health was also taking a huge toll and I think it was really just a bad situation where two ill people fed off each other and the whole thing spiraled. 

That's an excellent point, and something that I think may explain a lot about the decision-making process of the Sussexes over the last few years. I don't think people on either side are really acting out of malice, but I think that there's a lot of pain and anger without there necessarily being a 'bad guy'. 

I also think it's perfectly possible that the BRF may have been generally well-meaning but not sufficiently recognised the ways in which the Sussexes needed support without the Sussexes admitting it first. Like, I can easily see older members being like "yeah, the press sucks, but keep your chin up and ignore it" while the Sussexes' social media use made that difficult, or how even the best-case reading of that comment about Archie's skin (like an older member innocently wondering what the baby would look like) could still come across as a damaging microaggression that hurt Meghan. 

But Harry in particular does seem to take it as an attack when things don't go his way. I'm thinking of the Angela Kelly incident, where he was shouting and screaming at staffers who were reported as being like 'Angela wasn't even in London, the tiara couldn't be taken out even if she was, Kate used a plastic tiara to practice, so we don't understand what the issue was', whereas Finding Freedom claimed Harry saw it like 'Meghan made a perfectly reasonable demand, so the fact that it was denied could only be due to a deliberate slight against her for nefarious reasons.'

[nausicaa]

1 hour ago, viii said:

We don’t know how Meghan was feeling, but I know from dealing with suicidal people that there is often heightened paranoia and the person is an unreliable narrator, firmly believing in their own minds that nobody cares, etc. There’s a good chance Meghan didn’t trust her doctor enough to speak about it while pregnant because she wasn’t mentally sound at the time. I don’t think she can be blamed for her decisions while she was in this dark period - she was clearly not thinking straight.

I can understand this, but i do want to point out that is not equivalent to the BRF refusing to get her treatment. 

They are both presumably in a better place now so they should be choosing their words more carefully. It's one of the reasons I'm uncomfortable that these two have decided to become the spokespeople for mental health. They've both admitted they're tyros at this, and I feel the mental health lingo they're quick to toss around could cheapen the terms. 

[EmCatlyn]

9 hours ago, Xanariel said:

I remember a few years back on one of the big anniversaries of her death, some of Diana's ex-staffers were being interviewed and one mentioned how distraught her old security team were. He said that they would never, ever have set off without making sure she was secured in the car on a normal drive, let alone when fleeing the paparazzi. 

There were a lot of factors in Diana's death. Another issue that perhaps wouldn't happen with royal protection officers was that Henri Paul, the acting head of security at Dodi's father's hotel, was not a chauffer and was drinking on the job, which was a fatal combination with a high-speed paparazzi chase. 

Yeah, I was appalled that the driver was drunk and not a professional driver.  Really bad choices all around.  I’m roughly the same generation as Diana (6 years older) and “don’t ride in a car with a drunk driver” was something  my friends and I mostly followed from teens up. And Diana was no teenager.

Sad that she was in part driven by paranoia.  

[Ozlsn]

10 hours ago, WiseGirl said:

  I can't figure out the end game for these two.

Frankly I don't think they know either. I wish they would take some time to stay quiet and maybe work it and some of their issues out in private.

8 hours ago, truthseeker said:

Anyone else curious about Samantha Markle's recent silence?  I would have expected her to have had plenty to say in the last couple weeks, but ... nothing.

Can I get a "Hallelujah" and "Keep at it Sam!" from the back?  I hope the news media have decided to ignore her.

[omilona]

On 5/18/2021 at 4:20 PM, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I believe the BRF have suffered personal trauma and tragedy throughout the generations, as most families have.  And as kids need different kind of parenting depending on their needs within a family children can experience different levels of trauma from the same circumstances.

But the phrase "generational trauma" is often used to explain how severe and pervasive trauma to families in certain circumstances can affect future generations. 

from this article:  https://www.ensembletherapy.com/blog/what-is-generational-trauma

Yes, it can be used to discuss how severe trauma within a family but that's not how I've generally heard it used.  I mean technically being a member of the BRF is it's own subgroup of people and there could be generational trauma, but as many in those previous generations were also responsible for inflicting generational trauma on millions upon millions with colonialization and imperialism it's extremely tone deaf if he were trying to equate the two. 

Let's say the BRF is full of generational trauma, it would be a struggle for kids born into it,  But as three of those people Tsar Nicholas, Kaiser Wilhelm, and King George led countries in WWI which caused massive generational trauma to untold millions it would be tone deaf to use the term.  

Anyway - there are schools of thought on how generational trauma affects genetic expression in DNA it's a fairly important topic and not one that should be co-opted by a guy who had some genuine trauma in an otherwise pretty cush life.

Not to downplay bad parenting in the BRF going back through the ages, but that's hardly exclusive to them and most people deal with family problems passed down through the generations without financial security or status which don't negate trauma but can make it easier to bear and opportunities to mitigate it on some levels most can never imagine.

ETA sorry - cross posted with @louisa05

My mother was born in 1940 in what is now Croatia. She was in a displaced person's camp with her family after WWII. She was a  HORRIFIC mother to me, but loved and cherished my 2 younger siblings  to the tune of $3,800,000...all the while gas-lighting me for decades. I dont accept the answer that  'generational trauma' is at fault. 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 minute ago, omilona said:

My mother was born in 1940 in what is now Croatia. She was in a displaced person's camp with her family after WWII. She was a  HORRIFIC mother to me, but loved and cherished my 2 younger siblings  to the tune of $3,800,000...all the while gas-lighting me for decades. I dont accept the answer that  'generational trauma' is at fault. 

I am so sorry that happened to you.  I wasn't defending it as an excuse for anyone's behavior, just explaining my understanding of the concept and how Harry in particular shouldn't be using the phrase.

[omilona]

20 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I am so sorry that happened to you.  I wasn't defending it as an excuse for anyone's behavior, just explaining my understanding of the concept and how Harry in particular shouldn't be using the phrase.

No worries Buffy! It still goes on even today. I made a conscious decision at the beginning of the C19 lockdown, that regardless of how shamefully she had behaved towards me, that the honorable thing to do was to get them through to the far side of the pandemic...so every week I shopped/cooked all their food, brought TP, PT, Toothpaste etc for a year. I just took them for their vaccines. Then mother's day was coming and I invited them to join us for brunch. Her response was "I will be having the holiday with my family, but you are welcome to join us".

[just_ordinary]

I think we have read all the extremely contradicting statements here, so I won’t go into that. I think both sides have some truth to it. Charles might have tried to be helpful and positive by saying, it sucked but I got through it and so will you. Harry might have felt ignored and neglected by that statement. 
What I found most shocking is that she told him she wanted to kill herself and by doing so their unborn child and only he was preventing her from doing so. Talking about dropping a bomb. I hope they address that in therapy because if that was me, I couldn’t sleep ever again. If that isn’t a trigger for severe anxiety and ptsd what is? Harry, for all he says, looks not ok. He seems adrift. 
Let’s hope he concentrates on getting better from now on. They need to move on. They already remind me to much of Thomas and Samantha, and I generally wish H&M all the best on their own path. 

[Mama Mia]

On 5/21/2021 at 3:31 AM, Xanariel said:

I think both statements were valid; they had different relationships with Diana and obviously will focus on different things. 

I think William in particular is in a very difficult place at the moment. He was Diana's confidante as a teenager and saw her issues in a way that a child never should for their parent, and he warned her away from Bashir then. Now it's been revealed that Diana was told he was spying on her for Charles. Because the BBC covered up the lies, she may have died thinking that. 

And he's the future king, but clearly very angry with the state broadcaster. Given how Diana's paranoia led her to reject her royal security - security trained in dealing with car chases and not allowing a client to travel without a seat-belt - I think there's a haunting question about whether she'd have been in that situation in Paris without Bashir. 

Those statements from both of them were so sad. It really highlighted the differences between their family roles, personalities, and relationships in the family. 

On TikTok there’s a guy who does a really funny series with oldest/middle/youngest kids reactions to different situations. With the oldest always hyper vigilant/overly responsible nervous and the youngest always expecting the world to be done for him. 

No middle kid, obviously, but William and Henry are such exaggerated stereotypes of those dynamics! 

I really felt for William in his speech. What a horrible situation to be that parentified, to your mother, at puberty, with all the drama being around your parents sex lives, in the most detailed and public way possible. AND with the pressure of being the future king? Good lord. 
 

I’ve always liked Harry and Meghan, and I understand how his mental health show might be helpful to other people struggling, but I think it would of been better without the 1st interview, and maybe in his attempt to be relatable, not coming across quite so entitled. I know he can’t see it, you can only relate to your own life, but he has SO many more resources at his immediate disposal, because he has so much money,  that it’s hard to relate to. There are private mental health treatment centers everywhere. If they needed to get away for a break they had multiple estates to choose from. They can hire private security. If Meghan and Kate are fighting and crying over tights for flower girl dresses - for your million dollar wedding - who cares? People fight. And, honestly, Charlotte was the kind of toddler  who was always lifting her dress up in photos, so her mom was probably right lol. Esthetic or tradition aside.

But as far as Harry getting jumped on for saying he wanted to be a better parent to his own kid - that seems overblown. Who doesn’t want to do better in areas they feel their parents screwed up? And I don’t think it’s common that people look at the British Royal Family and say “ hey, you know who seems amazingly functional as parents? It’s those folks!” No. Maybe more functional and less detached and based on the business model each generation, but still.