The Exvangelical Movement

[noseybutt]

3 hours ago, Howl said:

 

It's been a few years ago when my newspaper did a feature article in the Lifestyle section about a retired ethics professor who did an informal type of "counseling."  People would come to him with ethical/moral dilemmas and they'd work through it together to help the person come to a good and ethical decision. 

Dang. I love this idea. Like @zee_four describes---this is access to the elders and wisdom only in academic form.

8 hours ago, zee_four said:

 

I'm all for peer counseling programs, that have been put together by people who know what they're doing. Just like we wouldn't have Gothard be in charge of a CPR training program you wouldn't want someone like him putting together the qualifications, training, etc for a mental health service program if that makes sense. That's one of my problems with many church based "therapy" is not that you need a psychiatrist for it to be effective but that the program should be put together by and vetted by someone with training, education and experience in the mental health profession.

 

 

This is very true. There also needs to be standardized ethics around what they are doing including some thought put into what you do when a counselor violates the ethics. I may be jaded, but that is big red flag for me for many church-based programs. Yeah, people know they shouldn't gossip but the counselors have multiple dual relationships and it happens without recourse. Or, a problem arises such as child maltreatment and there is pressure to handle it internally.

With the granny benches, my guess is those women are older and have the life experience to be thoughtful about their own behavior. 

I don't trust many young religious counselor wanna-be's with the same wisdom.

[feministxtian]

8 minutes ago, noseybutt said:

With the granny benches, my guess is those women are older and have the life experience to be thoughtful about their own behavior. 

Nah, we forget the conversation before we could possibly gossip about it

[Howl]

1 hour ago, feministxtian said:

Nah, we forget the conversation before we could possibly gossip about it

I had a good friend I did a lot of things with when we were both just menopausal.  We'd joke, "Every day is a new day!" because we could be so forgetful. 

On a darker note, I keep going back to Doug Wilson's "Biblical" "counseling" center.  They made it all official and have shirts with the counseling center's logo embroidered on it.  First, there is no assurance of confidentiality. None.  My sense is that part of the counseling operation is to spy on the CREC congregants and sniff out any sign of potential trouble or defection and make sure "biblical" counselors are offering the CREC/Wilson party line.  The problem, of course, is that much of what the CREC preaches causes suffering for women in particular. 

Then I think about the patriarchal hierarchy of the counseling center and the CREC (Wilson's church), and the articles I've been posting about how patriarchal hierarchy posits white males at the very top as THE authority and "Biblical" "counseling" has the potential to be very very ugly and cruel to women in particular, as an agent of suppression in support of patriarchal hierarchy, rather than a vehicle for healing. 

[Sarcastically spinster]

On 2/9/2022 at 2:51 AM, zee_four said:

So thank you so much for pointing that out and explaining it so eloquently, like I said I couldn't agree more with there being more mental health helpers, volunteers, laymen trainees in various lower levels of mental health and family and community support. But it shouldn't be a program made up by some ATI unaccredited Bible College pastor whose only qualifications is XY chromosomes and external reproductive organs, and even if it is high quality APA (American Psychiatric Association) or NASW (National Assoction of Social Workers) developed and overseen, people with major trauma and or severe mental health disorders should be seeing someone providing higher level professional care.

Have you heard of the Granny or Friendship Benches? I read an article from BBC about a program in Zimbabwe to both combat mental health stigma in an affordable effective way, provide access to so many that lack even minimum resources for treatment like bus fare if they can even get into a doctor, and to help kuouna be more active in their communities. Peer trained older women, most self proclaimed "grannies" sit at benches around town that are designed as Friendship Benches where people sit and talk story with these kupuna. It's been very effective and helps those who sit on the benches and the older wahine who are there for support. A really great and creative program to help serve a need in a community. 

I haven't heard of that, but that's really cool!  

And yeah, the training for laypeople serving in peer support roles really does need to be from actual, quality groups.  I'm not familiar with all of their material, but CCEF is one that I know is producing faith-based material from actual professionals, and I've interacted with some of their resources.  Darby Strickland works with them on at least some things, and she's putting out some quality material, from what I've seen.  

Even when you're dealing with major mental health needs that need far more than peer support alone can provide, having a formalized peer support structure within a church that integrates with the professional counseling could be huge.  Social isolation/lack of support goes along with them so closely.  If churches have a designated person who has gone through informal training, is informed even if not equipped to provide mental health interventions, and can provide a midpoint check-in between therapy sessions to make sure everything is going OK, connect with community resources (like people in the church willing to cook/clean/hang out for social support), be available as a listening ear and help reorient to what they've been going over in therapy sessions, that could be a game-changer for so many people in those faith communities.  

As someone still in the church, I can only imagine how different the church landscape would look if that was how the church saw its role when it came to mental health, just as it does when it comes to physical health.  The professionals treat what needs professional attention, and the church comes alongside for the social and practical support.  

[Howl]

I was raised nominally as a Protestant, and recall going to vacation Bible school in the summers as a kid *cookies, nap time, and those figures from the Bible stuck to a felt board* but I don't recall being terrified of going to hell or feeling abject shame for my sins -- my shame and anxiety had other origins! 

My mom started us going to church regularly  when I was in middle school and in high school we went to a Presbyterian church and both pastors, as I recall, were very tender, gentle men (no fire and brimstone) and my mom was an Elder. 

However, following so many on twitter, here and elsewhere who were TERRIFIED of sinning and were riddled with guilt over their perceived sins = PTSD

 

 

[Howl]

Jim Rigby is a Presbyterian minister at a downtown church here in Austin, TX.  I follow him on facebook and nominally Buddhist me is always amazed and uplifted by his transcendent posts.  Today was a post replying to a woman who had "lost her faith."   People who make a transition away from Christianity and other beliefs often lament the sense of solace that comes from an unquestioning belief and have a sense of "What now?"    

ON LOSING FAITH

Spoiler

I received a message yesterday that I think will make for a good conversation. A woman wrote that she had "lost faith":

Jim,

This is just a thank you. I lost my faith and belief in God, Christianity, and Jesus during the last several years. You point out the reasons that I can’t lose faith in love and compassion and hard work.

The question I have for you is how do I pray if I have lost my underpinnings? Who am I praying TO? It’s hard to be this worried and not be able to light candles and say prayers!

Many thanks!!!

Janet

What follows is my response. Feel free to share your own insights:

Dear Janet,

Thank you for letting me share your question with a larger community. You are definitely not alone.

Is it possible you have not “lost faith” so much as outgrown the interpretations given you in youth? It can be a scary time, but It is not a bad thing to outgrow the religion of one’s youth. In fact, I think this is what Jesus meant when he said new wine must be put in new wineskins. The ideas of a mature worldview cannot fit in the categories of understanding we had when we were younger.

From my perspective, your courage and honesty are not a loss of faith at all. Sometimes faith is the naked trust that one can be honest and still find meaning in life.

A religion that limits truth to its own beliefs, and limits compassion to its own group is already dead or dying. You are brave to choose honesty over belief and compassion over ritual.

By the way, when I use the word “religion,” I am referring to all the religions of humankind, not just Christianity. You do not have to use that word for this conversation. I just want you to know what I mean when I say it.

The idea of prayer as talking to an invisible person is only one understanding in world religions. Meditation is a kind of listening prayer that does not require belief in a deity. For many, meditation is tuning our hearts and minds by remaining still. I know people who get to that same inner peace and clarity by dancing, or jogging, or yoga, or sitting in nature, or serving humankind.

The good news is, if lighting candles takes you to your own inner peace, you can reclaim that practice without carrying the baggage from someone else’s religion. And, if the symbol “God” does not work for you any more, you can have an experience of what the symbol points to- that mysterious something out of which we are born, in which we live and to which we return. Again, you can experience reverence without having to carry someone else's religious baggage.

It is idolatry to believe in a symbol as a literal object in the world, but such is much of the religion of our time. Again, from my perspective, you have not lost faith at all. You've just outgrown the earlier categories of cultural religion.

Thank you for your honesty and courage.

With great respect,

Jim

 

 

[Howl]

Couldn't quite find the perfect fit for this post, but this is a twitter thread from exvangelical Kristin Rawls who podcasts at ChristianRightcast.

Unroll of thread here: I just learned that one of the youngest children in the Quiverfull family I was close to growing up is like...    Note that NAR referred to in the thread is New Apostolic Reformation. 

 

[sableduck]

23 minutes ago, Howl said:

Couldn't quite find the perfect fit for this post, but this is a twitter thread from exvangelical Kristin Rawls who podcasts at ChristianRightcast.

Unroll of thread here: I just learned that one of the youngest children in the Quiverfull family I was close to growing up is like...    Note that NAR referred to in the thread is New Apostolic Reformation. 

 

I actually have seen a LOT of the very fundie women my mom knew in the 1990s have veered completely into a very crunchy New Age lifestyle that they preach with evangelical gusto.  They may not be fundie Jesus people anymore but the cult trappings are still there.  As one of my friends I grew up with observed—same shit, different toilet.  

[hoipolloi]

41 minutes ago, Howl said:

Couldn't quite find the perfect fit for this post, but this is a twitter thread from exvangelical Kristin Rawls who podcasts at ChristianRightcast.

Wish they'd resume doing the podcast. I appreciated their deep dive analyses.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Once your brain is primed to believe in cult beliefs, you are more likely to fall into another cult. So it’s very common for people to go from one cult to another. A lot of ex Amish get into the Pearl group. It’s also like MLMs. If you’ve been sucked into one MLM, your likely to be sucked into another. So you might’ve sold MaryKay back in the day and now you’re selling plexus. 

[47of74]

Ordained Baptist Minister Nathaniel Manderson called out the fundies. 

Quote

So who, what, why and how is an "evangelical"? I often forget after all my years of growing up in the church, going to an evangelical seminary and my work in ministry, that many or perhaps most Americans have little knowledge and understanding of the evangelical movement, the Christian faith and how it all connects to American culture and American politics. I would say that most Americans are frustrated at the disproportionate influence and political power that evangelical Christians hold. For some the frustration is more personal because of how they've been treated by the church types. Either way, this mysterious species — the evangelicals — seem to be a major problem in American society. As a trained evangelical, and an ordained minister, I would have to say I completely agree.  

Who are these evangelicals? First off, their true ancestors are the Pharisees of the New Testament, whom Jesus describes as being obsessed with legalistic questions but neglecting "the more important matters of the law — justice, mercy and faithfulness." This is the primary group that had Jesus killed. Much like the Pharisees, today's American evangelicals do not represent the faith in any genuine way. They have done more damage to the name of Christianity than any group I can think of. Their misuse of the Christian faith as a political weapon against anyone they see as an enemy is driven primarily by greed and a thirst for power.  

The sheep who follow the most prominent evangelicals are also guilty of refusing to question these so-called leaders of the Christian faith. They should be measuring their pastor's words and deeds against the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Attending church does not mean we check our brains at the door.

What are these evangelicals? Currently and historically, they are nothing more than a political action committee. They have nothing to do with the foundations of the Christian faith. Their political agenda is based on hate, rejection, condemnation and self-righteousness. The biblical Pharisees, who were the enemies of Jesus, used their political connections to have him killed. In our own time, these new Pharisees use their enormous political influence to reject foreigners, deny health insurance to millions, judge the poor as lazy, refuse any and all regulation of deadly firearms and stand in opposition to equality of opportunity. In short, they stand side by side with the oppressors on virtually every issue.

 

[47of74]

Meahwhile a black Baptist minister told the truth 
 

Quote

A Southern Baptist minister recently accused his fellow pastors of becoming "whores" for Donald Trump -- which elicited howls of protest from some of them.

Kevin Smith, pastor at Family Church in West Palm Beach and former executive director of the Baptist Convention of Maryland/Delaware, spoke the first day at the SBC General Convention, where he accused some ministers of “losing their minds” after Barack Obama was elected president in 2012 and then shamed themselves by supporting Trump, reported Protestia.

"I think some Southern Baptists lost their minds when a Black man was elected president -- not all, but some," Smith said. "I think some Southern Baptists were unloving to Black people beginning in 2012 with the killing of Trayvon Martin." 

"I don’t mean agree about politics or policy … I just mean giving a darn that somebody else is hurting who is supposed to be your brother or sister in Christ, and I think some Southern Baptists just bent over and became political whores with this whole Trump stuff," Smith added.

 

[Howl]

Quote

...and I think some Southern Baptists just bent over and became political whores with this whole Trump stuff," Smith added.

Finally, someone calling these people out for what they are. 

[Howl]

Bruce Gerencser, former IFB Pastor, now secular humanist and my favorite exvangelical, wrote a response to  Piper's recent commencement address at Bethany College: Responding to John Piper’s “Five Reasons Evangelical Christians Fall Away” and was discussing this on facebook. 

It's a good read, but the best thing about Bruce's fb post was a reader who responded: "Even when I was still a Christian, I thought John Piper was a mildly annoying cocksore. Needless to say, my opinion has only worsened: he's definitely a cancerous cocksore." 

Also Bruce (Christian for 50 years, IFB pastor for 25)

"My present life is not that much different from my Christian days. I say fuck, drink booze 3-4 times a month, and watch R-Rated/Mature programs/movies on TV. That’s it. I still love Polly Gerencser, love my family, and love my fellow man (most of them).

I am also a better person post-Jesus. More accepting and tolerant, less judgmental. On balance, Atheist Bruce is a better Christian than Christian Bruce"

One interesting thing about Bruce and Polly is that they started having doubts at the same time and deconverted at the same time.  Huge deal for Polly -- she's a pastor's daughter and various relatives are still deeply in involved in fundamental Christianity. 

[MamaJunebug]

3 hours ago, Howl said:

I am also a better person post-Jesus. More accepting and tolerant, less judgmental. On balance, Atheist Bruce is a better Christian than Christian Bruce"

That part breaks my weary heart. Any acceptance and tolerance I show, I attribute to Jesus’ teachings.  It also makes me flat out angry: that people twist His words and life to endorse arrogance, rejection and toxic superiority.  
 

[feministxtian]

58 minutes ago, MamaJunebug said:

That part breaks my weary heart. Any acceptance and tolerance I show, I attribute to Jesus’ teachings.  It also makes me flat out angry: that people twist His words and life to endorse arrogance, rejection and toxic superiority.  
 

My faith is based on living out the example Jesus set in the Gospels. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, find help for the sick. I don't judge, that's up to God, not me. I see it as my job is to love people, help people. I don't do it in hopes of some heavenly reward, I do it because if I am to call myself a Christian, I am to live out following Jesus. 

[Howl]

@MamaJunebug and @feministxtian, you both may enjoy posts by Jim Rigby on facebook.  A Presbyterian minister in my town, but really some type of enlightened being, hard to describe how amazing he is.

[feministxtian]

  @MamaJunebug @Howl Y'all may like this blog https://tomorrowsreflection.com/ too. His dad was the pastor of the church we went to in PHX. Jeremy got kicked out of a church he was pastoring in Oregon for "being too liberal". He and I see eye to eye on many topics. Oh...and he owns a winery in Oregon too. 

[MamaJunebug]

@Howl a since if thank you! I do look up Jim Rugby now & then on FB, based on your previous mention of him! 

@feministxtian
thank you for the lead on Jeremy. I’ll be following up. ❤️ 

Also: West Coast wines … 😋 yummmm

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I wasn't sure where to put this, but Greg Morse is writer who works for John Piper. Since this thread tags Piper, I'll put it here. 

Greg Morse wrote a piece for Piper's Desiring God that says men should grow beards. It's odd coming from Piper who doesn't have a beard. Here's an article about it.

Piper doesn't have much of a beard. In the 1980s fundies and evangelicals preferred clean shaven men to contrast with the hippies. Now most millennial men shave (hipsters being the exception), so the fashion is beards.

[hoipolloi]

58 minutes ago, Bluebirdbluebell said:

Greg Morse wrote a piece for Piper's Desiring God that says men should grow beards.

That stupid piece caused great hilarity on Twitter yesterday, including this tweet from Kirstin Du Mez, author of Jesus and John Wayne:

[MamaJunebug]

As flutter-handy as Piper is, I honestly thought for years that his wife was his beard. And that wouldn’t have been a bad thing if it were true.  No hate, just fact. 

[Howl]

On 6/19/2022 at 10:13 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

Once your brain is primed to believe in cult beliefs, you are more likely to fall into another cult. So it’s very common for people to go from one cult to another. A lot of ex Amish get into the Pearl group. It’s also like MLMs. If you’ve been sucked into one MLM, your likely to be sucked into another. So you might’ve sold MaryKay back in the day and now you’re selling plexus. 

I've ended up encountering a lot of neurodivergent Twitter accounts, probably because numerous exvangelicals or exfundamentalists who are neurodivergent are on Twitter.  One woman, @XianJaneway on Twitter, is autistic, married to an autistic man and they have four autistic children.  Parents and kids take medication of ADHD   She posted a link to her article: Does ADHD Create Vulnerability to High-Control Groups?

What started this thread is this post: 

@XianJaneway responded: 

tweet thread continues:  "...people that the same condition can look like someone doing too much good OR too much evil? No one would buy that the same condition could both raise AND lower the blood pressure, or blood sugar, or body temperature, depending on outside factors. But, I truly think that's what's happening here. I want to challenge providers who are in a position to do so to consider stimulant medication for ADHD in these people. Why? Because conspiracy theory obsession MAY BE a disorder of executive function: the patient can't properly sort & prioritize & draw consistent, appropriate, cause-effect connections from the information they take in. Is it a MUCH bigger-picture view than we're used to taking? YES. Is it worth a stimulant trial to rule it out? ALSO yes."

The bolded refers to stimulant medication for ADHD.  She, her husband and kids all take ADHD medication and she notes that it has allowed her entire family to function and be functional, be organized, and avoid a huge amount of chaos. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Howl