Tea Party=Fundie?

[emmiedahl]

I am really curious, because I am FB friends with a local Tea Party organizer and I am a little appalled at what I read on her board, especially the comments. Fundie? Hell yeah.

On abortions that save the mother's life. Yes, specifically that, like ectopic pregnancies and such:

Dbag 1: When God gives us permission and is totally okay with it ... wait ... thats not gonna happen! God makes it clear that abortion is a detestable act to Him. Proverbs 6:16-17

Dbag 2: Never. Every life is precious and equal in the eyes of the Creator. HE is the author of life and we have no right to deprive anyone of it. In case of the mother's life in danger, every single effort should be made to save both lives.

Dbag 3: A mother was walking with her 4 year old child on some train tracks when out of nowhere a train comes speeding towards them. The mother only has time to push her 4 year old out of the train's path, or save herself and jump out of the way. How would you feel about her if she jumped out of the way while choosing to sacrifice her 4 year old? I don't really see how abortion to save the mother is different??

FB Friend: Doctors have always been able to save the life of the mother first.

Dbag 4: Dbag 3- that is an excellent way to put it.

FB Friend: Men I Applaud you! As a woman it is so awesome to see men stand up for Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for all life! Especially when our culture likes to tell men they have no say in this subject. Thank you thank you thank you! We need more men who don't care about being politically correct.

Dbag 2: Also, saying the mother is "sure to die" is leaving no room for God to intervene and provide a miracle if that is his plan which is His specialty. In my opinion. It's a hard situation to wrap your brain around for sure. As a mom of four though I can say without a doubt I wouldn't have hesitated to choose my baby first and I would have wanted my husband to make that same choice if it fell on him to decide. Then left the rest in God's hands. He has a plan and a purpose for eveything and that little life would not have ever been formed if He himself had not ordained it.

Dbag 2 (again, in response to a post about whether the child would born with a terminal illness) On the topic of abortion to spare a child of that life that you described, none of those things are the child's fault. Are we then to kill babies because we as a society are to messed up to 'deal' with them? That is not the answer. The s...ystem is broken. There are so many homes that are heartbroken over the ability to not even have children. I personally have several couple friends who are trying to get through the process and the state makes it nearly impossible- this breaks my heart.

Random Homeschooled Teenager: no. And I see no point in stating why- its self explanatory. Why would you kill your own child anyway? Adoption, although often times complicated is the way to go in my opinion.

Dbag 5: "when is it ok to 'kill'....." never, let Providence take its course...

Dbag 6: Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Either you believe God is the giver and the taker of life, or you don't. I do.

Dbag 7: I think we need to "err" on the side of life in this situation. As a mom who survived an very high-risk pregnancy, I got the incredible privilege of getting to watch my twins grow weekly via ultrasound from 7 weeks on. I can say absolutely ...that life begins at conception. I was told by doctors that my girls had about a 30% chance of living. I was told throughout my pregnancy that "if" they lived they'd likely be disabled mentally/physically. Once I was admitted to the hospital (my girls had reached the point of viability but still had a high risk for disabilities) I was asked by the doctor "if" I still wanted them to "fight" for my girls or not. I was disgusted to learn it was still my choice at this point, as I couldn't legally get an abortion. When I pressed the doctor about this he replied, "Well, some people don't like to 'deal with' the preemie stuff." I will say that "with God all things are possible" and doctors don't don't know it all and don't have the final say. Our experience has proved just how wrong doctors frequently are, as my girls are the picture of health today. On a side note, one of my heroes was my next-door-neighbor growing up. She was diagnosed with cancer during her 2nd pregnancy and refused treatment as to not pose a risk to her unborn son. She died shortly after his birth, but I'm sure she never would have regretted giving up her life for her son's.

Dbag 8: It's never ok. God creates ALL things and He doesn't make mistakes. That child's life is NOT a mistake, his/her special needs are NOT a mistake. They are created for a purpose just like every "normal" child. And NO man should be able to make the decision under any circumstance to kill a baby...ever.

Dbag 9: Moral responsibility......? I believe I know it to be called sacrificial love, even if I knew I was gonna die and had other children. How could I stand in the face of my children and tell them I love them and they were meant to be and very ...precious to me all the while knowing I was going to kill their next sibling so I could live longer to be their mother..... I would wait on my Lord and Savior and trust in Him, even if that meant he choose ME over the new life HE deemed fit to be in our lives. Take a look at your great grandparents lives and further back. They did not have the "choices" we have today and many, many families were left motherless because of a situation in childbirth. They did not grow up hating their parents or the world for the loss of their parents...they accepted it as their fate, their lot in life and picked themselves up and kept going to become great people themselves.

Dbag 10:Did you see the 180 movie? He gets to this and people on the street turned from being pro-choice to against abortion as a result of logical reasoning.

Dbag 11: The media and Planned Parenhood have done a great job at brainwashing people to accept it. It's interesting that pro-choice people (not pointing a finger at anyone on this thread) usually default to the old "well, what if the mother's life is in danger?" The truth is those situations are a small percentage of abortions. The larger percentage of abortions which take place each and every day are for "convenience" sake. A physicians job is to save lives. If they end up in a situation to have to choose between either saving the life of the mother or the life of the baby, then it is up to the physician to use his skills and best judgement in that particular case...Abortion is ugly all the way around. God gives life and He gives it abundantly.

Captain Random: Muslims should use some birth control too. Thats why their population is growing so heavily in Europe.

Me: I personally know people who had to have an abortion or lose their life. Either way, the baby was dying. It is so sad that they get judged when they have been faced with such a terrible choice with no right answer. A dead mother=a dead baby.

Dbag 12: Never. And in response to every conceivable "what if" imaginable; NEVER!

Dbag 3: Emmie, didn't you read Elizabeth's post about her neighbor choosing not to have cancer treatment so that her baby could survive? The mother ended up dying and

the baby lived. This is probably one of the most common examples of the mother being in a life threatening situation and having to choose between herself or her baby.

Me: Dbag 3, that is not common at all. I would say the most common is an ectopic pregnancy, which constitutes about 1% of all pregnancies. In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, your choices are: abort, or let the mother and baby both die. You are saying you would choose the latter, which makes me glad that legally it is not your choice.

Dbag 13: If you get pregnant then and you didn't want to, oh f$$king well, you made a choice and now you have resposibilities, and this whole haviing to choose mother or baby, again oh flippen well. Shit happens. But it is NEVER EVEER ook to murder the child in your womb. Period. You are a f$$king coward and POS human being if you do.

I am not Tea Party; I know some of these people through homeschooling in the past. I was trying to be very mild because for some reason I thought I could win them over to a moderate point of view. I don't know why I thought that...

About public school:

FB Friend: Now you can send your child off when they are 3 and not even have to feed them. It is an entitlement generation. Where they think everything should be handed to them. Not only that, there is no money. We need to have more local control over education. And yes there has to be a public option it is in our WA state constitution. It is the form it takes that needs work. Our current public schooling is in serious trouble and throwing more money at it will never make it better.

Dbag 1: And who should pay for that entitlement and help? And who pays the us that educate our own? If their are those that want to feed and clothe others, let them volunteer to give, but do not hold a gun to my head and tell me to give to any and all. Let me choose who I will help. I live in a very poor neighborhood and help often. That way I know where the money goes and what it is used for.

FB friend: many of the Founders were homeschooled and mentored later on. :)

Dbag 2: The progressive public school system has steadily dumbed down our society since it was forced on us 170 years ago. Check out the education of our founding fathers, just to name few. Do the home school study on historyu, not the public school one so that you will know the truth instead of the progressive garbage you must have been taught.

[Austin]

I think where fundies and tea partiers intersect is mainly in their anti-government views. Some refer to tea partiers are tea-vangelicals, and I've no doubt that some are (as demonstrated by this conversation), but some are just disgruntled libertarians (IMO). True libertarians do not want government interfering with anything, including women's uteruses.

[Rosa]

I know quite a few political conservatives (all relatives) who are full of the God and Family talk when it's a rightwing position - abortion, gay marriage, funding for private religious schools - even though they're not actually fundamentalists or even active in their own churches. Like, sure, porn is fine if I like it, but women shouldn't get divorced just because they're unhappy, that's Bad for The Family.

[jenny_islander]

A lot of the people involved in both fundamentalism and the Tea Party were never taught to think; they just react. One group assumes that all gut feelings are the promptings of the Holy Spirit and thinking is a sign of lukewarm faith; the other assumes that logic, reasoning, etc., are an elitist plot concocted to make them feel bad about not being on the top of the heap.

It makes them useful to assorted demagogues. Pronounce the right phrase in front of them and they will react in a predictable, useful way. They will also not stop to think about what else the candidate or pundit pronouncing the phrase might be for. They won 't even examine a candidate's voting record to see if what he says matches up with what he does. He's a "family values" candidate because he said so. End of.

They extend this muddled mentality to one another. There are Tea Party members who don't know or care that their fundamentalist cohort are for things that would give them the screaming fantods and vice versa. They all say the same things about MAH TAX DOLLAHS! or GAYS OUT OF THE PUBLIC ARENA! and assume that they are all imagining the same future.

[Sola]

Captain Random: Muslims should use some birth control too. Thats why their population is growing so heavily in Europe

I guess it must be OK for a Muslim woman to have an abortion then...

[emmiedahl]

One of the amusing things is their reaction to the Occupy Wall Street movement. When the conservatives take to the streets in protest, it is a righteous act. When liberals do it (much more peacefully btw, I am really impressed with the conduct for the most part), then it is a lawless, populist takeover of Marxists. Not that there is not a Marxist element to OWS, but I think every revolution has a little of that.

[Austin]

One of the amusing things is their reaction to the Occupy Wall Street movement. When the conservatives take to the streets in protest, it is a righteous act. When liberals do it (much more peacefully btw, I am really impressed with the conduct for the most part), then it is a lawless, populist takeover of Marxists. Not that there is not a Marxist element to OWS, but I think every revolution has a little of that.

I'm listening to one of the organizers of the Occupy Wall Street movement on NPR and I'm impressed and agree with most of what he's saying. If I could take time off I would go downtown and support the group in my city, I would.

You are so right in that conservative activisim = righteous, liberal activisim = anarchy or marxism or lawless mob. :roll:

[emmiedahl]

I have been looking for an OWS event in my area and I am so sad that I have not been able to find one. It makes me wipe a tear from my evil, Jewish, socialist eyes. I am praying for an American Autumn and would love to take my kids to a protest. My parents took me to quite a few when I was little. Totally OT, but I kinda love this: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/opini ... crats.html

[GenerationCedarchip]

I think where fundies and tea partiers intersect is mainly in their anti-government views. Some refer to tea partiers are tea-vangelicals, and I've no doubt that some are (as demonstrated by this conversation), but some are just disgruntled libertarians (IMO). True libertarians do not want government interfering with anything, including women's uteruses.

Yes, this. The tea party in my area has plenty of tea-vangelical types but a lot of the folks writing letters to the editor and speaking on TV sound much more libertarian. VA has a fair number of libertarians anyway, though.

[Rosa]

I like that, "tea-vangelical".

[emmiedahl]

They have such a muddled platform. It's all: we hate the government! Until it comes to my uterus, and then the government should be forcing me to die for a nonviable ball of cells on my Fallopian tubes.

[lizzy]

It is important to remember that not all those who affiliate with the Tea Party are fundy and not all fundies are Tea Partiers. The Tea Party arose in response to TARP and the $800 billion dollar stimulus package. They saw runaway government spending, especially to bail out Wall Street, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, was dangerous for the country. Passage of Obamacare, a trillion dollar entitlement bill, in the middle of the worst economic turndown since the Great Depression, only fueled their anger.

Unfortunately, that message has been hijacked by the Evangelicals who have used their shared belief in smaller government to lobby the government for morality laws (abortion, gay marriage, etc.). Idiotic hypocrites.

[Austin]

I like that, "tea-vangelical".

I co-opted it from somewhere. . . :D

[mirele]

It is important to remember that not all those who affiliate with the Tea Party are fundy and not all fundies are Tea Partiers. The Tea Party arose in response to TARP and the $800 billion dollar stimulus package. They saw runaway government spending, especially to bail out Wall Street, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, was dangerous for the country. Passage of Obamacare, a trillion dollar entitlement bill, in the middle of the worst economic turndown since the Great Depression, only fueled their anger.

Unfortunately, that message has been hijacked by the Evangelicals who have used their shared belief in smaller government to lobby the government for morality laws (abortion, gay marriage, etc.). Idiotic hypocrites.

Yeah, I had to restrain myself from telling a coworker yesterday who has Teahadist sympathies that I didn't like a group that said it was for less government but has no problem with the government getting up into my ladybits. That's not less government to ME.

[BlackHawk]

I do believe Jon Stewart pointed the tea party out the best. They are complaining that OW is breaking laws, they are screaming for smaller gov't and saying those people are breaking laws.. yet they have named themselves after one of the largest acts of racism and vandalism in the USA. They have named themselves after people who dressed up as Native Americans and dumped a shit ton of tea into water. Seriously, I think they need to pay more attention to history and what really happened.

[BravaAmica]

They have such a muddled platform. It's all: we hate the government! Until it comes to my uterus, and then the government should be forcing me to die for a nonviable ball of cells on my Fallopian tubes.

They want small government, you know- government small enough to fit in your uterus.

[emmiedahl]

They want small government, you know- government small enough to fit in your uterus.

That is the WIN of the day. :clap:

[Rosa]

Unfortunately, that message has been hijacked by the Evangelicals who have used their shared belief in smaller government to lobby the government for morality laws (abortion, gay marriage, etc.). Idiotic hypocrites.

Everyone I know who's a Tea Party sympathizer - which I know isn't a huge sample, but it's not tiny either - was already socially conservative, EXCEPT for the pot legalization libertarians. I don't think the Evangelicals hijacked them, I think there was a big crossover already, not just of Evangelicals but of general right-side culture warriors.

[emmiedahl]

My FB friend is economically conservative, but not fundie at all. She has tattoos and wears miniskirts, wears the pants in her family, plays paintball with her daughters, etc. She is actually a really kickass person and a great mom. In the last year or so, it has been getting crazy as she becomes more and more involved in the TP politics. She is turning more fundie by the day and it kinda worries me. I think the Tea Party has been a bad influence, so I drop in occasionally to bring a fresh perspective. She has told me that she really appreciates this, but I wish she had the balls to tell the rest of the Tea Party when they are clearly being dbags.

[Rosa]

Yeah, it might just be that half my family is really religious (not fundy, but socially conservative and devout - they don't claim God wants women not to work, for example, they just claim working moms are bad for kids and daycares are full of child molesters.) and the other conservatives I know are just pro-business Republicans and really dismayed by the anti-immigrant, religious, and Tea Party types.

My one libertarian friend just doesn't pay attention to all the non-libertarian stuff his idol Ron Paul says. As long as he's pro-pot, he's alright, right?

[debrand]

I was disgusted to learn it was still my choice at this point, as I couldn't legally get an abortion.

I haven't read the entire quote yet but this statement shocked me. She isn't happy with being able to decide to not have an abortion. Instead, she wants there to be no choice, at all.

When I was a young adult, I had a friend who had a heart defect. Her lips were often tinged blue because her body didn't have enough oxygen. When she got pregnant at 20, she had an abortion. Her family was religious and would have taken care of the child, even though it was illegitimate. But her body couldn't take the stress of carrying a child to term. She would have died before her first trimester was over. For her family, it was a heart breaking decision but thankfully, my friend was able to live for a few more years.

I lost touch with my friend but I doubt she is still alive. Her condition was serious.

Also, saying the mother is "sure to die" is leaving no room for God to intervene and provide a miracle if that is his plan which is His specialty

If the mother does die they will claim that it was god's will even if her life could have been saved by an abortion

[Austin]

I haven't read the entire quote yet but this statement shocked me. She isn't happy with being able to decide to not have an abortion. Instead, she wants there to be no choice, at all.

When I was a young adult, I had a friend who had a heart defect. Her lips were often tinged blue because her body didn't have enough oxygen. When she got pregnant at 20, she had an abortion. Her family was religious and would have taken care of the child, even though it was illegitimate. But her body couldn't take the stress of carrying a child to term. She would have died before her first trimester was over. For her family, it was a heart breaking decision but thankfully, my friend was able to live for a few more years.

I lost touch with my friend but I doubt she is still alive. Her condition was serious.

I began pre-term labor with my second (twin) pregnancy at 22 weeks. There were numerous hospital stays and lots of medications to stave off labor, some of which had negative side effects. There were never any guarantees and it takes its toll. It is not unreasonable for a physician to check in with the patient to ask if this is something she wants to continue, given what she is going through. Not continuing =/= abortion. :roll: Methinks she's overdramatizing the situation. What a shock.

[Boogalou]

A mother was walking with her 4 year old child on some train tracks when out of nowhere a train comes speeding towards them. The mother only has time to push her 4 year old out of the train's path, or save herself and jump out of the way. How would you feel about her if she jumped out of the way while choosing to sacrifice her 4 year old? I don't really see how abortion to save the mother is different??

This is the dumbest (and most incorrect) analogy I have ever read. It should be more like the mother can either let both people die or just save herself. Analogy fail.

Except, more accurately: save herself or a mass of cells. But I am having a good day and so I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

[debrand]

This is the dumbest (and most incorrect) analogy I have ever read. It should be more like the mother can either let both people die or just save herself. Analogy fail.

Except, more accurately: save herself or a mass of cells. But I am having a good day and so I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

The analogy is weighted to inspire an emotional response. A more accurate analogy would be if the mother was carrying a petri dish full of cells that hadn't yet formed a brain or nervous system.

[O Latin]

This is the dumbest (and most incorrect) analogy I have ever read. It should be more like the mother can either let both people die or just save herself. Analogy fail.

Except, more accurately: save herself or a mass of cells. But I am having a good day and so I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Reading this over again, I started wondering, you know how sometimes on medical or crime shows you get the "pregnant woman is shot/in a car crash/some other disaster and the only way to save her is to do an emergency c-section but the baby probably won't live" plot? Is this what these people think "abortion to save the mother's life" usually is? Because I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's probably pretty rare in real life.