Michelle 2: Mom of 13 & YouTuber Accused of Neglect on Dr. Phil

[Granwych]

Didn't Diane get pregnant when she escaped?  I think she was recaptured within a relatively short while.

I read Small Sacrifices  years ago.   As I read how her daughter testified about her mother shooting the three kids, I had to put the book down.  I couldn't finish it.

 

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

7 minutes ago, Granwych said:

Didn't Diane get pregnant when she escaped?  I think she was recaptured within a relatively short while.

I read Small Sacrifices  years ago.   As I read how her daughter testified about her mother shooting the three kids, I had to put the book down.  I couldn't finish it.

 

 

I think she tried to get pregnant when she escaped but she didn’t. 

[wild little fox]

Whoops. I remembered wrong. 

Nevermind.

[Tigerchild74]

I do think the structure and environment of fundamentalism attracts a higher number of people who suffer from disorders (though I think usually they're mild or able to be self medicated).  I think a person with untreated illness who is then placed in a very stressful situation (like having a shitload of kids you can't afford either mentally, financially, or emotionally) can lead to abuse and trauma cycles for the whole family.  So I think it's just...complicated.   I feel like when I look at the fundie-lite circles I was raised in with dabbling in fundie fundie, how my relatives have fared, and a few other things compared to my non-religious or non-fundie raised circles--there's just a lot less weird celebration of abuse and abusers and shame in the non-religious one.  Even with people who also had mentally ill parents or other significant trauma in their life.  This is just anecdotal musing on my part though.  I bet someone has done research!

[KnittingOwl]

15 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

I've only been pregnant the one time, and miscarried very early. Tell me, what is it about pregnancy that makes these women so euphoric? Most of the pregnant women I have been around are tired, achy, sleepless, have indigestion, pee every five minutes, and just can't WAIT for the child to be born so they feel all of the above but normal again.

I’ve been pregnant 3 times and have 2 little ones. I never want to be pregnant again. I start vomiting pretty much immediately after conception and get hyperemesis. I am uncomfortable and feel like the host for a parasite most of the time. 

[katilac]

17 hours ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

Interestingly enough, Diane Downs also had a fundie background. 

I'm going to have to read the book again. It's been a long time, but I've never thought of her as having a fundamentalist background (religious, yes). 

[smittykins]

As I recall, she was raised Baptist(with church twice on Sunday and Wednesday evening), and was asked to leave Bible college for some sort of sexual shenanigans.

[Briefly]

On 3/23/2019 at 6:39 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

Did you guys watch 20/20 last night on Diane Downs. She had three personality disorders! I think she got pregnant with her fourth to garner sympathy. Because she planned the pregnancy and it was around the time they were looking at her as a suspect. 

I didn't even know it was on!  She had several pregnancies, there were 5 total I think.  She had the three she tried to kill (and one of them did die), she had an abortion in there somewhere - maybe right after her second was born?. The she had a surrogate, she was one of the early surrogate mothers. So that's 4.  Then # 5 is the one she conceived right before she was arrested. She may well have planned that for sympathy, but she was pregnancy obsessed and felt loved by the babies during her pregnancies - but not loved at any other time.  I'm paraphrasing heavily, from Small Sacrifices which is a very well-written book.

8 hours ago, katilac said:

I'm going to have to read the book again. It's been a long time, but I've never thought of her as having a fundamentalist background (religious, yes). 

I'm not sure if her family was actually fundy or not, but her father was very domineering.  She stated how her mother never spoke out about anything and her father was the one who made all the decisions.

[JermajestyDuggar]

25 minutes ago, Briefly said:

I didn't even know it was on!  She had several pregnancies, there were 5 total I think.  She had the three she tried to kill (and one of them did die), she had an abortion in there somewhere - maybe right after her second was born?. The she had a surrogate, she was one of the early surrogate mothers. So that's 4.  Then # 5 is the one she conceived right before she was arrested. She may well have planned that for sympathy, but she was pregnancy obsessed and felt loved by the babies during her pregnancies - but not loved at any other time.  I'm paraphrasing heavily, from Small Sacrifices which is a very well-written book.

I'm not sure if her family was actually fundy or not, but her father was very domineering.  She stated how her mother never spoke out about anything and her father was the one who made all the decisions.

I didn’t realize she was a surrogate. Did she use her own egg? 

ETA: never mind I just googled and it is her biological child. She was artificially inseminated and was given $10,000.

[Dreadcrumbs]

29 minutes ago, Briefly said:

I didn't even know it was on!  She had several pregnancies, there were 5 total I think.  She had the three she tried to kill (and one of them did die), she had an abortion in there somewhere - maybe right after her second was born?. The she had a surrogate, she was one of the early surrogate mothers. So that's 4.  Then # 5 is the one she conceived right before she was arrested. She may well have planned that for sympathy, but she was pregnancy obsessed and felt loved by the babies during her pregnancies - but not loved at any other time.  I'm paraphrasing heavily, from Small Sacrifices which is a very well-written book.

I'm not sure if her family was actually fundy or not, but her father was very domineering.  She stated how her mother never spoke out about anything and her father was the one who made all the decisions.

I'm admittedly reading between the lines when it comes to Diane's background. Her family plus her attendence at an IFB Bible college (the college that gave her the boot for "promiscous behavior") gives me fundie vibes. 

I really do need to read Small Sacrifices. I've only watched the recent 20/20 and listened to podcast episodes.

[smittykins]

I would also recommend watching the movie starring Farrah Fawcett.  She knocked it out of the park.

ETA:  I just wanted to add that I can’t hear “Hungry Like The Wolf” without thinking of Diane Downs.

[Glasgowghirl]

3 hours ago, smittykins said:

I would also recommend watching the movie starring Farrah Fawcett.  She knocked it out of the park.

ETA:  I just wanted to add that I can’t hear “Hungry Like The Wolf” without thinking of Diane Downs.

I watched a documentary on Diane Downs and they showed the clip of Farrah Fawcett playing her and reacting to the song in the courtroom, it was chilling just seeing that scene being acted out nevermind what it must have been like in that courtroom. No innocent person would react that way to the song they were listening to when their children got shot and one of them died. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, Glasgowghirl said:

I watched a documentary on Diane Downs and they showed the clip of Farrah Fawcett playing her and reacting to the song in the courtroom, it was chilling just seeing that scene being acted out nevermind what it must have been like in that courtroom. No innocent person would react that way to the song they were listening to when their children got shot and one of them died. 

It always amazed me how she couldn’t see anything from another person’s viewpoint. She didn’t see how others would think her behavior in the courtroom when the music came on could be seen as completely inappropriate. She couldn’t see that her smiling and joking were inappropriate when talking about her children being shot. Her self awareness was close to zero. Many killers can understand that they need to act a certain way to garner sympathy or to lie better. But she had none of that. And she truly thought she would get away with it if she did all these interviews. But she just made it worse and worse. 

[Glasgowghirl]

47 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

It always amazed me how she couldn’t see anything from another person’s viewpoint. She didn’t see how others would think her behavior in the courtroom when the music came on could be seen as completely inappropriate. She couldn’t see that her smiling and joking were inappropriate when talking about her children being shot. Her self awareness was close to zero. Many killers can understand that they need to act a certain way to garner sympathy or to lie better. But she had none of that. And she truly thought she would get away with it if she did all these interviews. But she just made it worse and worse. 

While she was a suspect from the start, her interviews definitely helped confirm their suspicions about her. Even now she insists she is innocent and that people are out to get her. Her youngest daughter found out she was her birth mother and contacted her in prison and Diane wrote a few creepy letters, saying that she was set up and that she better protect her son against it happening to her too, she cut all contact after that. 

[Briefly]

10 hours ago, smittykins said:

I would also recommend watching the movie starring Farrah Fawcett.  She knocked it out of the park.

ETA:  I just wanted to add that I can’t hear “Hungry Like The Wolf” without thinking of Diane Downs.

It's played on the Tulsa area stations fairly often. I usually change the station.  The movie based on the book was very good, Farrah Fawcett did an outstanding job portraying her.  The book was the first Ann Rule book I read and it is so detailed. Downs was diagnosed as a narcissist, and I think a sociopath which means she has no conscience at all.  She is a monster and I am glad she will never get out of prison. The daughter she gave birth to right after the trial is the one that @Glasgowghirl is referring to. She's had some difficulties in her own life, but not like her birth mother's mental & criminal issues.  I do wonder about the surrogate baby, as far as I know nothing has ever been publicized about her and I'm glad for her sake.  I'm sure her parents know who her birth mother is, I don't see how they could not know.  I re-read the book every so often because it's just so well-written and researched.

[JermajestyDuggar]

25 minutes ago, Briefly said:

It's played on the Tulsa area stations fairly often. I usually change the station.  The movie based on the book was very good, Farrah Fawcett did an outstanding job portraying her.  The book was the first Ann Rule book I read and it is so detailed. Downs was diagnosed as a narcissist, and I think a sociopath which means she has no conscience at all.  She is a monster and I am glad she will never get out of prison. The daughter she gave birth to right after the trial is the one that @Glasgowghirl is referring to. She's had some difficulties in her own life, but not like her birth mother's mental & criminal issues.  I do wonder about the surrogate baby, as far as I know nothing has ever been publicized about her and I'm glad for her sake.  I'm sure her parents know who her birth mother is, I don't see how they could not know.  I re-read the book every so often because it's just so well-written and researched.

The recent interview with her youngest child that was adopted stated that Ann knew who Becky’s bio father was. But she swore to Diane she would never tell anyone. So she took it to her grave in 2015. She would only tell Becky that her father was a very good man and Diane barely knew him since he was just someone who lived on her mail route. I guess Diane just showed up at his door with alcohol and weed and they slept together that one time. Becky has been pretty public about her bio mom so I’m sure her biological father knows she wants to find him. He obviously doesn’t want to be found. 

[Briefly]

Just now, JermajestyDuggar said:

The recent interview with her youngest child that was adopted stated that Ann knew who Becky’s bio father was. But she swore to Diane she would never tell anyone. So she took it to her grave in 2015. She would only tell Becky that her father was a very good man and Diane barely knew him since he was just someone who lived on her nail route. I guess Diane just showed up at his door with alcohol and weed and they slept together that one time. Becky has been pretty public about her bio mom so I’m sure her biological father knows she wants to find him. He obviously doesn’t want to be found. 

In the book, his name was changed and he was basically someone that Diane trapped/fooled/tricked into having sex with her once or maybe a couple of times. He knew who she was and what she'd been accused of, but he was still a willing partner. He stated that she told him she was on the pill or using some type of contraceptive but obviously she lied because she intended to get pregnant again and that's what she did.  He didn't exactly deny paternity but he wanted to be on record that he was not positive that he was the father, and he had been clear about not wanting any more children. But he did not take any precautions at the time.  It is possible that he has met his daughter but that neither of them have said anything.

[smittykins]

Yeah, I remember Diane lying about being on the pill.  And I’m still kind of surprised that Becky’s adoptive parents were told that Diane was her birthmother, since closed adoption was still the norm at the time.

[JermajestyDuggar]

40 minutes ago, Briefly said:

In the book, his name was changed and he was basically someone that Diane trapped/fooled/tricked into having sex with her once or maybe a couple of times. He knew who she was and what she'd been accused of, but he was still a willing partner. He stated that she told him she was on the pill or using some type of contraceptive but obviously she lied because she intended to get pregnant again and that's what she did.  He didn't exactly deny paternity but he wanted to be on record that he was not positive that he was the father, and he had been clear about not wanting any more children. But he did not take any precautions at the time.  It is possible that he has met his daughter but that neither of them have said anything.

When Becky was interviewed for 20/20 that aired on Friday, she said she hadn’t met him and didn’t know his name. All she knew was from what Ann Rule had told her about him before she died. She does want to meet him though. But I doubt that will happen. 

18 minutes ago, smittykins said:

Yeah, I remember Diane lying about being on the pill.  And I’m still kind of surprised that Becky’s adoptive parents were told that Diane was her birthmother, since closed adoption was still the norm at the time.

I imagine it was for their safety. Since she was going on trial for murdering her child. It also wasn’t a private adoption through an agency. Becky was technically in foster care from the moment she was born. But they found adoptive parents very quickly. Foster parents aren’t usually kept in the dark about their child’s parents. 

[Dreadcrumbs]

It bothers me that Ann Rule insisted on keeping the name of Becky's bio father a secret because she promised Diane of all people. I'm of the opinion that adoptees have a right to know who their biological parents are. All parties can decide what kind of relationship they want (if any).

[JermajestyDuggar]

26 minutes ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

It bothers me that Ann Rule insisted on keeping the name of Becky's bio father a secret because she promised Diane of all people. I'm of the opinion that adoptees have a right to know who their biological parents are. All parties can decide what kind of relationship they want (if any).

It’s interesting because this man likely knows a lot about Becky because she’s provided the info from multiple interviews. He knows that she was adopted by a loving family and she is now doing well in her life (she wasn’t doing so well in her teens and 20s). He can have that knowledge yet she has no knowledge of him. I guess it just kind of seems unfair but that’s the choice Becky made when she went public. Her older half siblings her mother tried to kill were adopted by the prosecutor and want to stay completely out of the public eye. 

[socalrules]

Small Sacrifices was my entryway into true crime when I was 11. I love all things Ann Rule. Diane Downs always fascinated me because every time she had a chance to right her life, she inexplicably made the wrong choice. She was obviously smart but it was as though there was some chip missing. I always believed there was a possibility someone sexually molested her as a child, who I don’t know, because she used sex, or her sexuality, at the most inappropriate times. I mean this woman was coming on to the cops who were trying to figure out who shot her kids. The disconnect was amazing. 

I wonder about Becky. I feel bad for her to have to find out Diane Downs gave birth to her but I swear I have seen her on 10 different shows in the last few years. I only find it odd because the kids who were shot, and survived, have never done interviews and intentionally live under the radar. 

[Briefly]

18 hours ago, socalrules said:

Small Sacrifices was my entryway into true crime when I was 11. I love all things Ann Rule. Diane Downs always fascinated me because every time she had a chance to right her life, she inexplicably made the wrong choice. She was obviously smart but it was as though there was some chip missing. I always believed there was a possibility someone sexually molested her as a child, who I don’t know, because she used sex, or her sexuality, at the most inappropriate times. I mean this woman was coming on to the cops who were trying to figure out who shot her kids. The disconnect was amazing. 

I wonder about Becky. I feel bad for her to have to find out Diane Downs gave birth to her but I swear I have seen her on 10 different shows in the last few years. I only find it odd because the kids who were shot, and survived, have never done interviews and intentionally live under the radar. 

She claimed numerous times that her father molested her and I think he probably did.  She recanted later,but I think it was because she needed him on her side to try to get her either acquitted or released from prison.  But I think she was telling the truth when she said he did.  I think the older surviving kids probably wanted to stay as private as they could to keep Diane from contacting them or trying to be part of their life.  She did try to kill them and nearly succeeded, and she killed their sister.

22 hours ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

It bothers me that Ann Rule insisted on keeping the name of Becky's bio father a secret because she promised Diane of all people. I'm of the opinion that adoptees have a right to know who their biological parents are. All parties can decide what kind of relationship they want (if any).

I would not be surprised if it was that she had promised the father, not Diane.  Then again, he could just be a jerk who doesn't want to face his daughter after he gave her up before she was born.

[Tigerchild74]

19 hours ago, socalrules said:

I wonder about Becky. I feel bad for her to have to find out Diane Downs gave birth to her but I swear I have seen her on 10 different shows in the last few years. I only find it odd because the kids who were shot, and survived, have never done interviews and intentionally live under the radar. 

I don't find it odd, but I think that's because I am an adoptee.  I recently reunited with both sides of my birthfamily after 30 years of searching.  I had some information before that (the "non identifying" info) and I clung to that so long, because I did have something in me that wanted to feel any kind of connection to my past.  it wasn't that I idolized my birthparents (I feared them greatly, off and on, because I figured they had a 50/50 shot of being as or more abusive fucks like my adoptive parents), though I did want to connect on some level to them too.  Not every adoptee even cares, so I certainly don't speak for everyone, but I can say that there are a significant number (including myself) who do feel a need to feel connected in some way to their heritage (not always the individual parent), it can present in many ways, and this seems like a very very natural way.  I don't know any other adoptees in reunion that have exactly that circumstance, but I do know a handful who do not want contact with their birth parent (because that person is very dangerous or ill) but they are very drawn and hold tight to the story about themselves and the past that they do have (the neglect/abuse that happened to them that got them removed, crimes committed by a birthparent/sibling, ect.)   I think this is something that is difficult to comprehend or understand for many people, especially if you are not an adoptee.  It makes me wonder what she was told growing up about her past, if this was something that they finally told her or she discovered once or if she became interested in learning more about her birthparents, or what.

The siblings who were with their mother until she committed her crime actually experienced her doing it, all the trauma around it and the trial, ect.  That is a fundamentally different experience than a child who was adopted and taken at birth and did not have that experience and only learns about it from a distance.  So it makes sense to me why the older sibs react very different in how they handle things.

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 hours ago, Tigerchild74 said:

I don't find it odd, but I think that's because I am an adoptee.  I recently reunited with both sides of my birthfamily after 30 years of searching.  I had some information before that (the "non identifying" info) and I clung to that so long, because I did have something in me that wanted to feel any kind of connection to my past.  it wasn't that I idolized my birthparents (I feared them greatly, off and on, because I figured they had a 50/50 shot of being as or more abusive fucks like my adoptive parents), though I did want to connect on some level to them too.  Not every adoptee even cares, so I certainly don't speak for everyone, but I can say that there are a significant number (including myself) who do feel a need to feel connected in some way to their heritage (not always the individual parent), it can present in many ways, and this seems like a very very natural way.  I don't know any other adoptees in reunion that have exactly that circumstance, but I do know a handful who do not want contact with their birth parent (because that person is very dangerous or ill) but they are very drawn and hold tight to the story about themselves and the past that they do have (the neglect/abuse that happened to them that got them removed, crimes committed by a birthparent/sibling, ect.)   I think this is something that is difficult to comprehend or understand for many people, especially if you are not an adoptee.  It makes me wonder what she was told growing up about her past, if this was something that they finally told her or she discovered once or if she became interested in learning more about her birthparents, or what.

The siblings who were with their mother until she committed her crime actually experienced her doing it, all the trauma around it and the trial, ect.  That is a fundamentally different experience than a child who was adopted and taken at birth and did not have that experience and only learns about it from a distance.  So it makes sense to me why the older sibs react very different in how they handle things.

She always knew she was adopted and was told very little. She was told her bio mother was in jail. And not much else. She found out on her own at age 11 and it had a huge impact on her. I don’t think she told her parents she found out (through the Ann Rule book at the library) so she just kept it inside for awhile. I think that’s what caused her so much trauma. Plus she said she saw the movie about it at 16.  Becky didn’t write her birth mother until She gave her own son up for adoption in 2006 (I think). She said she wanted to talk to her bio mom about giving her up for adoption. She said she wanted to talk to someone who went through the same thing. She quickly regretted it. Since Diane is so horrible.