Michelle 2: Mom of 13 & YouTuber Accused of Neglect on Dr. Phil

[SassyPantswithASideofClass]

28 minutes ago, Ozlsn said:

I found out last night that the 21 yo son of people I went to school with committed suicide in December. His parents had absolutely no idea - he seemed fine, no different to any other time. If they had realised they would have moved heaven and earth to help him - his father is helping run an event this weekend to help other young men who might need to talk about how they are feeling.

I cannot get over how detached Michelle and Rod seem from River's mental health problems. 

I am so sorry. Hugs to you and to the family that lost their son. *HUGS*

[luv2laugh]

On 3/20/2019 at 3:47 AM, Melissa1977 said:

Adopting is a long way, first of all filling the papers is a time investment she's not willing  to do. Second, the money. Third, the home study (while unfortunately we all know cruel couples who passed the study through Christian agencies). Fourth, they are not young and parents age may be an issue. Fifth, the baby is too little to legally start adopting.

I think the eventual adopted child is safe. No way he or she is going to that hell.

I don't like Michelle but I completely disagree with you on that. Today, many people are waiting until mid 30s-40s to have a family whether it's through natural means, medication to aid in conceiving, IVF, egg donors, surrogacy or adoption. There are plenty of people in their 40s who adopt.

NBC's Andrea Canning is 46 and is currently pregnant with baby #6. She did not get pregnant with her first until age 41. ABC's Sara Haines is pregnant with baby #3 at 41 and had her first at age 39. The controversial Megyn Kelly had a similar path with her three pregnancies. Perhaps these women have been conceiving naturally or maybe they froze their eggs and conceived via IVF but they have not revealed any information.

I can go on and on. I can include adoption as well. I love FreeJinger but I've noticed a trend over the years of people having a tendency to "balk" at the idea of a woman having a baby (whether it be through natural means of conception, fertility treatments or adoption) after age 35 anytime it's discussed...

 

[AliceInFundyland]

All she said was that they are not young, and that it may be an issue. Not that it will be an issue. It was not an attack on older parenting. There are lots of older parents on FJ. You get upset often when this issue come up.  I don’t see judgement in this audience for getting pregnant over 35. Having baby 11ty over 35, yeah, maybe.

[NotQuiteMotY]

3 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

I don't like Michelle but I completely disagree with you on that. Today, many people are waiting until mid 30s-40s to have a family whether it's through natural means, medication to aid in conceiving, IVF, egg donors, surrogacy or adoption. There are plenty of people in their 40s who adopt.

NBC's Andrea Canning is 46 and is currently pregnant with baby #6. She did not get pregnant with her first until age 41. ABC's Sara Haines is pregnant with baby #3 at 41 and had her first at age 39. The controversial Megyn Kelly had a similar path with her three pregnancies. Perhaps these women have been conceiving naturally or maybe they froze their eggs and conceived via IVF but they have not revealed any information.

I can go on and on. I can include adoption as well. I love FreeJinger but I've noticed a trend over the years of people having a tendency to "balk" at the idea of a woman having a baby (whether it be through natural means of conception, fertility treatments or adoption) after age 35 anytime it's discussed...

 

Not touching age related to fertility...

BUT @Melissa1977 was talking strictly about adoption, if I read the comment correctly. And quite a few adoption agencies will put limits on adopting depending on the parents' ages. As of the late 80s/early 90s that did happen to a family I know. It may depend on the agency or the birth parent(s) preference, too. Either way, unless they shop around, that right there may put the kibosh on an adoption attempt.

[Tigerchild74]

I think the age requirements for adoption tend to be tied to international adoption.  It's true that birth parents may gravitate towards people in their 30s.  I have noticed that people my age (mid 40s) and older, since we were near the end of the era of women and girls who got pregnant outside of marriage being extremely shamed and the era where adoption agencies could lie, there were no notification requirements for birthfathers, ect--I think because so many people of that era fear open adoption, they kind of gravitate towards other sources of kids than domestic private infant adoption agencies provide since for the most part, those are open or semi-open arrangements.  I have had people tell me directly that they went international or via Christian foster care because they didn't want any contact with birthfamilies and wanted to make sure there was no competition for the kids.  Even though things are just...I dunno.  Not like that or much more complicated than that.

 

I would hope that an evaluator in their right mind would do a basic google search on this family, and see how the parents already weren't handling and were pretty insensitive to their biological children's needs and would not place a child with them--but there are quite a few ministry adoption agencies that would probably slobber all over them and be happy to.

[Melissa1977]

11 hours ago, luv2laugh said:

I don't like Michelle but I completely disagree with you on that. Today, many people are waiting until mid 30s-40s to have a family whether it's through natural means, medication to aid in conceiving, IVF, egg donors, surrogacy or adoption. There are plenty of people in their 40s who adopt.

NBC's Andrea Canning is 46 and is currently pregnant with baby #6. She did not get pregnant with her first until age 41. ABC's Sara Haines is pregnant with baby #3 at 41 and had her first at age 39. The controversial Megyn Kelly had a similar path with her three pregnancies. Perhaps these women have been conceiving naturally or maybe they froze their eggs and conceived via IVF but they have not revealed any information.

I can go on and on. I can include adoption as well. I love FreeJinger but I've noticed a trend over the years of people having a tendency to "balk" at the idea of a woman having a baby (whether it be through natural means of conception, fertility treatments or adoption) after age 35 anytime it's discussed...

 

Adopting is difficult for parents aproaching age 50. Michelle and his husband are 46 years old. They should wait Millie to be 1 year old, and wait for all the process to be finished, it makes them 48 years old or older. Agencies priorize younger parents, and international adoption is also difficult at that age if you want a little kid. You can be angry at that, but that's the reality. 

People who you see adopting at 40 have probably started the process earlier (or just when they turned 40). It's not something you can start at 48. It use to be long, specially if you want a healthy little kid.

[Four is Enough]

When we adopted our first, an infant, we were "aging out" of the eligible list, at 37, for an infant. One and Two were privately adopted.

When we adopted Three and Four, as school aged children, we were approaching 50. We were considered a "young family" because we already had two other school aged children, but we were told then that if we'd not have had One and Two we wouldn't be considered for the others, because agencies, including CPS, like to keep the age less than 40 years between youngest parent and oldest child. This was in 2003.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

21 hours ago, AliceInFundyland said:

All she said was that they are not young, and that it may be an issue. Not that it will be an issue. It was not an attack on older parenting. There are lots of older parents on FJ. 

Um, yeah. I'm pretty sure I'm on the record in multiple threads in more than one forum as being an older mom. I gave birth to my kids at 38 and 40 years. Many times when the discussion turns to maternal age, we have posters who had their kids young provide their perspective, and posters who had their kids at an older age chime in, often including me. I personally find it interesting to hear all the different experiences. (Not just on parenting--on all the topics!  )

I have no direct experience of adoption, so I don't know how much parental age factors in to consideration. Fortunately for me, @Four is Enough shared some information, and maybe other posters will, too. 

[llucie]

21 hours ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

Not touching age related to fertility...

BUT @Melissa1977 was talking strictly about adoption, if I read the comment correctly. And quite a few adoption agencies will put limits on adopting depending on the parents' ages. As of the late 80s/early 90s that did happen to a family I know. It may depend on the agency or the birth parent(s) preference, too. Either way, unless they shop around, that right there may put the kibosh on an adoption attempt.

Agree, it also hapened to a family i know. They were unable to adopt a baby or even an infant because of their age. They still could adopt an older child but i dont think Michelle would want that since she seems to only like children while they remain babies.

[Dreadcrumbs]

3 hours ago, llucie said:

Agree, it also hapened to a family i know. They were unable to adopt a baby or even an infant because of their age. They still could adopt an older child but i dont think Michelle would want that since she seems to only like children while they remain babies.

If there is anything this woman likes more than babies, it's being pregnant. I suspect most of the joy she has derived from having all of these children is the pregnancies.

[Hane]

13 hours ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

If there is anything this woman likes more than babies, it's being pregnant. I suspect most of the joy she has derived from having all of these children is the pregnancies.

That’s Michelle Duggar to a T! 

[Four is Enough]

I've only been pregnant the one time, and miscarried very early. Tell me, what is it about pregnancy that makes these women so euphoric? Most of the pregnant women I have been around are tired, achy, sleepless, have indigestion, pee every five minutes, and just can't WAIT for the child to be born so they feel all of the above but normal again.

[smittykins]

“And I delivered every one of them!”

[JermajestyDuggar]

28 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

I've only been pregnant the one time, and miscarried very early. Tell me, what is it about pregnancy that makes these women so euphoric? Most of the pregnant women I have been around are tired, achy, sleepless, have indigestion, pee every five minutes, and just can't WAIT for the child to be born so they feel all of the above but normal again.

I don’t know. I’ve been pregnant twice and HATED it. I do not have easy pregnancies and I admit that I hate the attention on my body. “Oh you’ve gotten so BIG!” Umm thanks. Before I got pregnant I thought it would be fun! Boy was I wrong, lol. Some people might enjoy the attention. Pregnant women definitely get plenty of attention. Including from strangers. I had a nasty pregnancy face. Like I looked pissed 24/7 so strangers rarely bothered me. I think some were scared of me. I think I even spotted a stranger hop out of the way when I was coming through  Parenting is a thankless and exhausting job. No one gives you much praise or attention for being a parent 24/7. But you get plenty of attention and praise when you are pregnant. And you still get attention when you have a newborn. Everyone loves a newborn. Even if they often look like little old men. 

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

I've only been pregnant the one time, and miscarried very early. Tell me, what is it about pregnancy that makes these women so euphoric? Most of the pregnant women I have been around are tired, achy, sleepless, have indigestion, pee every five minutes, and just can't WAIT for the child to be born so they feel all of the above but normal again.

I know many women who enjoyed their pregnancies. But pleasure is not the point with fundie pregnancies. Michelle D, ZsuZsu and others have stated how they suffered (more or less) with their pregnancies. No matter if the were sick, or in pain, or.even in danger, it's all about being praised and being the main character in the play. They can talk about God's will but they are liars. God's will is not tracking cycles and weaning babies just to got pregnant sooner. They are using religion to enhance their pride! And they are using their children as a symbol of status, not mothering them. It's infuriating.

[Dreadcrumbs]

I think the attention is what they enjoy, not so much the pregnancy issues. 

[Tigerchild74]

I only enjoy very specific parts of pregnancy:  being able to belch the alphabet whenever I want, and feeling the baby kick and move and respond to noises and other things.

I have a cousin who is fundie and recently had #7.  What I get from reading between the lines is that she derives a lot of pleasure from feeling like she is truly fulfilling her purpose in life, the same way others might feel about their careers, playing on a sports team, ect.  It makes sense, given how we were raised.  There are so many ways to fuck up and be trash as a woman in the fundie culture--but getting pregnant and giving birth are one way that you can feel like you are fulfilling god's purpose in your life, despite the fact that you are a woman.

Also, imagine in fundie culture that all those little kicks and movements, ect--I mean they are something just for you, unless they're big enough or your husband is around.  It can be a little secret that you experience that no one else has to know.  It's not like giving your husband a handjob or a quickie to fulfill your purpose as his wife according to his wishes, no matter how shitty you feel.  This isn't as messy, you don't necessarily have to stop what you are doing, you can share that moment with someone else if you want or keep it to yourself.

[Hane]

I felt physically and emotionally wonderful during my one pregnancy, except for insomnia at the beginning and the inability to sit comfortably on the couch toward the end (had to watch TV sitting on a dining room chair). I wanted more kids but divorced when my baby was a year old, and my second husband had had a vasectomy before I met him. My daughter, on the other hand, felt physically well but emotionally distraught, in part because of the body dysmorphia she suffered. That’s why she chose to have only one child. We’re all different.

[Hashtag Blessed]

I've only been pregnant once and it was pretty miserable from start to finish. The one good thing about it was the beautiful new child we got to take home. However, while I was recovering in the hospital I did find myself feeling a sudden bizarre desire to do it all over again and have another. That's something I honestly thought I would never feel, given how complicated and painful my pregnancy was. It really shocked me. Hormones, I guess? 

I could easily see that mixing with the "fulfilling my life purpose" fundie mindset to create a desire for a mega family. Plus I get the feeling that pregnancy is the only time that a fundie woman might feel like her suffering is valid or worthwhile. Like, if you're just depressed, in life then you're being a bad woman. But if you're depressed while pregnant then you're being a self-sacrificing vessel of creation! Or like, if your house is a mess while you're pregnant it's ok! Because you're growing a new life and you have to put your feet up. But if your house is a mess all the time then you're just a bad wife/mother. 

So life still sucks but as long as you're pregnant you can tell yourself it's all for the quiver of god's arrows! 

[Briefly]

6 hours ago, Hane said:

That’s Michelle Duggar to a T! 

And Diane Downs.  During Diane's trail for the murder of her daughter, the word used to describe the way she felt about children is "fungible."  They can be replaced, She liked the effect that they gave her, not the children themselves.  Her aim was to be pregnant often.

[luv2laugh]

The 40 year rule on adoption has been changing as many parents are looking to adopt and are over 40. People are living longer and women are waiting to have kids later in life.

"But as the online adoption community Adoption.com says on its website, that policy has loosened considerably: “In the past, the upper age limits for adopting parents ... was set by a 40-year ‘rule of thumb': Adopting parents shouldn’t be more than 40 years older than the child they wanted to adopt. Today, that age limit is creeping up as the baby boomer generation changes definitions and perceptions about age, health, physical limitations and life span. More and more agencies are encouraging older persons to consider infant adoption.”

Kathy Ledesma, national project director of the Washington, D.C.-based organization AdoptUSKids, agrees that the “40-year rule” is pretty much ancient history.

“Today the average age for the men in a couple who adopt is 42 years, and the age range is 22 to 76 years old,” Ledesma says. “For women, the average age is 40 and the range is 21 to 68. Even more astounding: A third of the kids adopted are adopted by single people. For single men, the average age is 48 and the range is 28 to 77. For single women the average is almost 45, and the range is 23 to 73. So, yes, times have changed.”

https://www.northjersey.com/story/entertainment/2017/01/26/making-decision-adopt-after-40/96791632/

[Dreadcrumbs]

9 minutes ago, Briefly said:

And Diane Downs.  During Diane's trail for the murder of her daughter, the word used to describe the way she felt about children is "fungible."  They can be replaced, She liked the effect that they gave her, not the children themselves.  Her aim was to be pregnant often.

Interestingly enough, Diane Downs also had a fundie background. 

[Briefly]

3 minutes ago, Dreadcrumbs said:

Interestingly enough, Diane Downs also had a fundie background. 

Yes, but not as fundie as some of the people we discuss.  However, she claimed to have been molested by her father although she has at times denied that.  But she does describe her mother as being distant and said that there were so many children that none of them really got enough attention.  But she has also been diagnosed with some serious personality disorders.  I wonder how common personality disorders are in fundie circles?  I had not thought of that before, but it might be a lot.  Just wondering out loud.

[Dreadcrumbs]

5 minutes ago, Briefly said:

Yes, but not as fundie as some of the people we discuss.  However, she claimed to have been molested by her father although she has at times denied that.  But she does describe her mother as being distant and said that there were so many children that none of them really got enough attention.  But she has also been diagnosed with some serious personality disorders.  I wonder how common personality disorders are in fundie circles?  I had not thought of that before, but it might be a lot.  Just wondering out loud.

I wonder about this too. Having all your self-worth tied up in your ability to serve a higher purpose and make everyone else happy seems like a great recipe for serious mental health issues.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Did you guys watch 20/20 last night on Diane Downs. She had three personality disorders! I think she got pregnant with her fourth to garner sympathy. Because she planned the pregnancy and it was around the time they were looking at her as a suspect.