Razing Ruth posted an update!

[Austin]

I have read the blog and the comments, and maybe I'm totally dense, but I don't see anything wrong with his relationship with his mother. Then again, I'm super close with my mother, so I think its all about point of reference

If you tell your intended that he/she has to run specifics of wedding plans past your mother and get her approval, then yeah, there is something wrong with your relationship with your mother.

[BravaAmica]

There's a comment from Razingruth under the post about wedding planning where she says Harris is kind of playing both sides of the conflict between Ruth and his mom. (It took me a while to find it.) He was telling Ruth in private that he agreed with her plan to have a small wedding, but would take his mom's side whenever she was around. He either did want a big wedding, and got nervous about expressing that to Ruth in private, or he was just unwilling to do the work of disagreeing with his mom on behalf of Ruth. I agree that a guy deserves some input to his own wedding (but not all input, like MJB's story!), but it doesn't sound like he was standing by a particular opinion. I also don't think the situation is really a dealbreaker for an entire relationship, but it sounds like there were multiple issues that lead to the break-up, like an unwillingness to delay the wedding and a discrepancy in when children should happen.

Bolding mine. That's the issue, IMO. He couldn't communicate honestly to either woman- ruth or his mother- which is a huge problem. If he can't express his opinion without fear of hurting someone else he is not ready for an enduring committment.

[BravaAmica]

If you tell your intended that he/she has to run specifics of wedding plans past your mother and get her approval, then yeah, there is something wrong with your relationship with your mother.

+1!!!

And if you're too much of a wimp/don't care about your fiancee's feelings enough to stand up to your mother, there is something wrong with the relationship with your mother.

[luckylibrarian]

I feel terrible for her. It seems like Harris expected Ruth and their marriage to be absorbed into his family, rather than creating a new family with just the two of them. What she wrote about the marriage being separate, and then being a part of his family when they wanted to be, really struck me because that *is* how it's supposed to be. Your marriage is first, and then extended family comes second. It seems like Harris wasn't ready to make that transition to being a husband first and a son second.

[Angri-la]

Having married a fundie man whose mother ran our married life, and forced our divorce, I would say Ruth dodged a bullet. There is NOTHING wrong with you Ruth!

[PBrooke]

Due to life events beyond everyone's control, my husband and I lived in a completely different state separate from either of our parents, both before and after we got married. Though it's been an inconvenience at times, in many ways it wasn't a bad thing for our marriage - we were just out of college, still relatively young. I might have relied too much on my family, because I just wasn't the strongest person, and his mother might have insinuated herself more into our business, because she is just a very strong personality. Instead, we were able to grow at our own pace, without much scrutiny, and develop a firm foundation together. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone - moving off alone is hard, and isolating someone from their friends and family can even be a red flag - but I fully appreciate that a married couple should should be on each other's team first and foremost.

[changemanagement]

If Ruth is strong enough to call off the wedding, she'll recover nicely with a lesson learned.

I initally had issues like that with my MIL and husband. I just asked him who was he going to fuck at night. Me or her?

That solved that problem. In spades.

[LucySnowe]

Oh, hang on, when Natalie turned up on the old board (well before my time, but I read it when I found you guys), didn't she say that a large part of the problem with her (disastrous, short-lived) marriage was her intrusive mother-in-law? Cautionary tale writ large!

[contrary]

a new post, with correspondence from darth daddy. egads.

[MerryHappy]

Her father appears to be from the school that believes the more CAPS you use, the "righter" you are.

ETA: I didn't realize Ruth was part pachyderm.

Your a hipocritical girl the reality be you will not allow a GODLY man to impact this story you tell.

[ridethekick]

Good old Darth Daddy. Get in and kick her while she's down and vulnerable. I think by now Ruth's seen enough that nothing could make her want to trade her independent life for dependence on her father / a GODLY husband. Which must really infuriate DD.

the reality be you will not allow a GODLY man to impact this story you tell

Because us womenfolk are just a blank canvas waiting to be "impacted" by a man.

[MerryHappy]

You can tell he is just gibbering in rage at his computer monitor towards the end there.

[Austin]

I had a feeling that Darth Daddy would not be able to resist the urge to crow some version of "I told you so". Scumbag.

[jaelh]

what on earth is he talking about with - "you will not allow a GODLY man to impact this story you tell"

how do you impact a story? what in skydogs name does he mean?

[Austin]

Was he "educated" at the SODRT? Good lawd, such horrible grammar and spelling. . .

[snarkykitty]

Pre-Cana was really, really weird. By the end, even the priest was rolling his eyes.

We actually found Pre-Cana really helpful. We did most of it with just the two of us and our priest - he was our campus priest, and we both were graduating the following semester (we were both do-it-yourselfers financially and took a bit longer to finish).

We did the final "all day" event with a bunch of people, led by a priest and several couples who had been married 15+ years. We were really happy with most of the activities, and found out that we were several steps ahead of couples who had never discussed certain things, not knowing if they actually agreed or disagreed, where they would each have to compromise, etc.

Basically, they ask a question, and each person raises their hands when they agree.

For example: "After we get marred, we are going to have a joint bank account." The point is that BOTH the bride and groom should know whether not they were merging their accounts, and either both raise their hands, or both not raise them. There wasn't a "right" answer; just that they needed to agree on "yes" or "no". If they had not discussed it already, it was something they should talk about before they got married. After each question was asked, they allowed a moment for the couples to discuss their answers with each other (not to the group).

According to our leaders, money is the biggest source of conflict:

- Joint or separate bank accounts? (already lived together once we got engaged, so we had our financial structure already in place)

- Will we each have an "allowance" of sorts? Is there a dollar amount that if one of us wanted to spent joint money on something, at some point, warrants discussion? For example, if he wanted to buy something for $300, would he have to talk to me first? (we pretty much talk about most of what we do anyway, but if there's something more costly that one of us wants to get, we'll help the other one search for the best model that suits our needs, the best price, etc.

Family/in-laws is another biggie:

- How do we handle holidays? (we had already been splitting holidays among my divorced parents here and his parents 1600 miles away)

- Are we set on any specific number of children and how soon? (not a worry for us, but we had already discussed my inability to have kids)

- Will both of you work? Will one stay at home if you have children? (again, not an issue for us but several couples admitted that they hadn't discussed this AT ALL.)

- Rules about family visits - i.e. is it an "open door policy"? Is it expected that they call first? (We both value our privacy! No "pop-ins" for us!)

Married life was another:

- What if the husband and wife had completely different food preferences? Would you switch it up? Make two meals? (One groom-to-be answered that it didn't matter, that he expected that his wife would cook two meals if she didn't like "What he wanted her to cook that night." She continued to glare at him the rest of the afternoon.)

- Will we both be working once married? Will one of them stay home when they have children?

- If the couple were not both Catholics, what church(es) would they attend?

Sorry for the thread derail...

[snarkykitty]

I'm sad for her but in the long run think she will be better off. She said she had asked if if they could call off the wedding for now but continue in a committed relationship and he said no. He did seem to have a my way or the highway attitude

Sorry for the double post, but I've always wondered about this sort of thing.

Like when women say that if their boyfriend doesn't propose by X date, they're breaking up. I thought that the point was to be with each other forever? I'm not talking about these guys who stinging along their girlfriends for 8 or 9 years, knowing that he will never marry her, but the ones who just aren't ready after 1 or 2 years.

What is so damn urgent after just a year or two together that you have to get engaged right away? What would be so bad to wait another year before getting engaged? The women who I know have done this were relatively young at the time (in the 25-27 range). It was right after we got married.

It seemed to be quite an epidemic where I was living at the time, probably because there were a lot of young professionals in a bigger city. They were positively freaked out to not be well on their way to walking down the aisle and popping out a kid or two before thirty. These were ambitious women on great career tracks, who had no intention of slowing down if/when they had kids. They were also very picky about what kind of engagement ring they got.

Some had minimum carat or minimum cost "rules":

- One of my friends demanded at least 2 carats with quality diamonds and intricate settings.

- My cousin's fiance demanded he spend at least $10k (this was in the mid-90s).

- Another friend had picked out her exact ring when she was 21. She said that she wouldn't marry a man who couldn't afford what she wanted, and that's what she wanted. She ended up not getting that ring, but an upgrade to 7.7 carats (I can't remember the setting or the total carat weight but 7.7 carats seemed big to me - almost gaudy in my opinion, but whatever). She married a venture capitalist and owns $5m house on the ocean in a prestigious New England town.

I know of two girls (not the ones above), who, after dumping their boyfriends for not popping out a ring soon enough, married someone else within the next 6-12 months. Not got engaged, but got married. It's almost like anyone else could have been slotted into that spot (to borrow a statement that Kris Humphries made to Kim Kardashian right before their wedding. Yes, I admit, I watched that damn 4-hour spectacle!!!!)

[SunnyAndrsn]

I'm sad for her as well, and wish I could just have her move in with me and DH for awhile. It's hard to see someone trying so very hard and struggling. We have a early 20's ish young woman that we are helping as tutors, with food, moral support, a place to do laundry, etc. She works her butt off and struggles to make ends met. Literally she has no one else to help her. Both parents are complete deadbeats. We have asked her to move in with us to make her life easier, and she decided against it for now because she wants to live on her own. We understand, of course, but I wish we could make her life easier all the same.

Ruth, if you're ever in Wisconsin, you're welcome to crash at our place :-)

[Rosa]

Yeah, Sunny, I think people who don't have a safety net don't even realize that a lot of the successful people they see around them may have spent years being either partially or sporadically dependent on their parents. But it's true for almost everyone, even if it's just the ability to take chances because you know you can crash on your folks if you need to. I know Ruth says she's had help, like the couple who originally helped her get away, but it's not the same as having that safety net you know is behind you, all the time.

We've had friends - not even people younger than us, just people with no family safety net - land on us a few times, and it really doesn't take too much bad luck - a lost job just as a lease expires, or an injury (like a broken leg) that requires a lot of personal help or limits mobility for a few months. Most of them bounce back fine from temporary setbacks, with a little bit of help, just like people who take a loan from their folks or end up on Mom's couch for a few months.

The kids I've seen age out of foster care with no "their" family have a really, really hard time, in just the same way.

[clarinetpower]

Mama Junebug invited her to come over to the party at the HiveVagina, but I don't know if she'll take her up on it. I hope so.

Ruth, honey, if you're reading this--so many people care about you. You can get through this. The wedding to Harris wasn't right, but you are going to be OK. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other.

And her dad--such a dick. Man. He's just 110% santorum (Dav Savage's coined noun), isn't he? I'd like to take a crap on his car in January.

[Rosa]

Like when women say that if their boyfriend doesn't propose by X date, they're breaking up. I thought that the point was to be with each other forever?

I don't see anything wrong with putting your expectations/wishes out there and walking away if the other person doesn't share them. I mean, I'd rather have someone I can talk politics with than someone who can buy a $5 million house, but it's not like my preference is any less arbitrary than hers.

The point of marriage for you might be being together forever, but for some people it's having money, or being married by a certain age, or having a partner of your own religion/hometown/educational level, or having a baby, or not having kids, or being shorter/younger/skinnier than whatever partner you choose. Some people think marriage trumps all other relationships, some people think marriage just makes the extended family bigger. That's what Ruth ran up against, right? She wanted to be married to a version of Harris that chose her over his mother. He wanted to be married to a person who would accomodate his relationship to his mom and not make him feel bad about it.

That's the fucked up thing about marriage: it can be a love relationship, a religious relationship, a business relationship, a way to make a family that trumps your family of origin, a sacrament, a set of pre-determined roles you just slot people into, a way for your parents to enhance the family, just about anything a person wants it to be.

[razingruth]

I am here. Thank you for your advice and invitation.

[failsafe]

Like when women say that if their boyfriend doesn't propose by X date, they're breaking up. I thought that the point was to be with each other forever? I'm not talking about these guys who stinging along their girlfriends for 8 or 9 years, knowing that he will never marry her, but the ones who just aren't ready after 1 or 2 years.

What is so damn urgent after just a year or two together that you have to get engaged right away? What would be so bad to wait another year before getting engaged? The women who I know have done this were relatively young at the time (in the 25-27 range). It was right after we got married.

Ehh. I don't know. I'm of the belief that if I'm seeing someone, and they don't know if they want to marry me after a year or two, they're probably not going to want to. That's plenty of time to get to know someone and get serious with them when you're old enough to be contemplating marriage. Maybe it's because I'm in that age range and confronting some life and biological preferences (want to have kids before 35 or so, want more than one kid, want to space them out a bit, etc) that make time a concern. Maybe it's because I tend to be attracted to fairly decisive people, so I know if they don't know after a year or two, that's a nicer way of saying "No." And maybe it's because I've decided that some things are important for me to do in a certain timeframe, and if that's not something you're interested in, neither of us should waste our time. I don't see that it's so horrible.

Is it wrong to want to wait longer? Of course it's not, especially if you've had the type of life Ruth has. Is it wrong to ask someone you love to wait? No, definitely not. Is that person obligated, if they love you, to wait, even if it conflicts with some of their own life goals? No, they aren't, not really. It's just an undeniable fact when people come together - sometimes there are compromises and sometimes there are stalemates. Love certainly does not conquer all - marriage is a very practical institution, after all. That doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong in that scenario - they are just two people who want different things on an issue that is very important to both of them. Sometimes, you can't make that work and that's no one's fault. I'm sure Ruth will find someone better suited to her in the future and will look back on this as a turbulent period that made her stronger.

[Love]

I am here. Thank you for your advice and invitation.

Welcome, Ruth!

I'm so sorry that things didn't work out with Harris like you wanted. Hopefully time will show that this was a good thing for your life in the long run.

[Ralar]

Welcome, Ruth!

I'm so sorry that things didn't work out with Harris like you wanted. Hopefully time will show that this was a good thing for your life in the long run.

What she said.