Razing Ruth posted an update!

[MissSeptember]

How many semesters does she have left to finish college?

What do we know about Harris? His mother probably also came along to chaperone the overnight trip. Added to the fact that he wants kids right away makes him seem pretty religious and I am curious about his level of fundie-ness.

[clarinetpower]

I am glad it went down as it did.

IMO, which matters negative zilch and nada to Ruth, her MIL was helping her get closure so she could enter her marriage on her own terms. If Ruth wasn't OK with this, she wouldn't have done it. She's strong now. She's entering this marriage (and continuing her relationship) with all her cards on the table, and she isn't hiding her family from her new family, which is proof that she is in a very good place. Her MIL was right by her side to support her, and I am so happy for her. I have a MIL who is one of my closest friends in the world, and I hope Ruth's turns out to be someone she can always count on. My MIL has been there for tense meetings with a certain family member of mine, and has always had my back in a "you're not crazy, you are completely justified in your feelings, what he does is not OK" kind of a way. Of course, mine is nowhere near Ruth's nightmare of a life, but I can tell you that my in-laws' support means the world to me and has helped me to become the person I am today.

I think it is important for her MIL to see the crazy. She will now better understand how and what kind of support her family will need. I'm sorry Ruth's father is still what he is, and her mother, too, but I am glad she had this time to hold out an olive branch. This is important for her, not them. She did it, and now she can move on. That Ruth and Harris are seeking help and guidance is testament to the fact that she sees things on such a different level than her black-and-white family; she has a good chance of leading a very healthy, productive life. I am proud of her, this random person on the internet I've never met. ;)

I wish Harris and Ruth all the happiness in the world!

[Austin]

I still think Harris' mother may be a problem. Apparently, he is the "whateveryouwantisfinewithme" type of groom, but with the caveat that "you have to tell my mom". Yeah, whatever, Harris. Grow up.

http://razingruth.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... mment-form

[deelaem]

I kind of wish Ruth was just dating Harris and enjoying the 'interesting times' with her new flatmates. The whole engagement seems to have been too rushed and intense, in the way that often happens when people go through extreme experiences together.

I'm glad you said this. I really wish she hadn't rushed into an engagement so quickly. She needs more time than most young women to find herself, due to her oppressive childhood. I think I understand why she did it, but it's a shame.

[Guest Anonymous]

I still think Harris' mother may be a problem. Apparently, he is the "whateveryouwantisfinewithme" type of groom, but with the caveat that "you have to tell my mom". Yeah, whatever, Harris. Grow up.

http://razingruth.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... mment-form

Oh dear... I had to look back to remind myself what my initial reservations were, and blah... poor Ruth.

My experience of weddings is that they can bring out the worst in most families.... but I think that for Ruth in particular it is a shame she has to go through this at a time that she should be building on her new-found independence.

I wish she and Harris could just move in together and see how things go, rather than rushing into a commitment where it would seem like she is marrying his mother as well as him.

[Maul the Koala]

Oh my...

A wedding is stressful enough but to have anxiety and the pressure of meeting 200+ new people? That is not a day I would look back on fondly. What's the point of putting on appearances for those 200+ people if you're not comfortable with it?

Hang in there Ruth and stick to your guns.

[MamaJunebug]

Poor kid. I almost hope she postpones the wedding. She's gone from zero to 60 - no, 120! - cojones in a very few years, considering she only got free a few years ago.

Postponement doesn't mean a breakup. It simply means taking a little more time.

If she and Harris really love each other, they both can wait another year, or even another six months.

And as an MIL myself ... I'm not liking Mother Harris. I'd much rather any child of mine wait a little longer and be truly ready, and that goes double for his/her intended. BigMamaJunebug used to say, "Marry in haste, repent at leisure" when she heard of people with troubles. I couldn't figure out the "at leisure" part at the time, but now I understand: "At leisure" means for a whale of a long, long time.

So, Ruth darlin', if you're reading this, ask yourself quietly: Am I rushing things? it's perfectly okay to wait a little longer. Trust me: a good 160 of the 200 Harris Family friends know exactly what I'm talking about. Trust.

Most of all, trust God. <--She's not going to let you down. <3

[Markie]

http://razingruth.blogspot.com/

Ruth posted a letter written by her mother. Her mom went to Jubilee Duggar's memorial service, and yet won't attend her own daughter's wedding, nor did she or her husband go and mourn with her own son and daughter-in-law when they miscarried a baby recently.

[LucySnowe]

I've only just found this blog and skimmed a few posts but augh, I'd like to tell that mother of hers a few truths. On the other hand, Ruth has articulated them pretty well. Not to mention she's pinpointed some pretty awful hypocrisy.

I hope she sticks to her guns and gets the wedding she wants.

[BravaAmica]

I hope she sticks to her guns and gets the wedding she wants.

I hope Harris sticks up for his fiancee. He sounds like a Casper Milquetoast.

[Austin]

I hope Harris sticks up for his fiancee. He sounds like a Casper Milquetoast.

Maybe I'm sensitive because I had an overbearing MIL, but there are not healthy boundaries in place between Harris (and by extension, Ruth) and his mother, IMO. He needs to get some backbone. Ruth has already had enough of that in her young life.

[BravaAmica]

Maybe I'm sensitive because I had an overbearing MIL, but there are not healthy boundaries in place between Harris (and by extension, Ruth) and his mother, IMO. He needs to get some backbone. Ruth has already had enough of that in her young life.

^This!!! I'm sorry to say I have had a similar experience. DH and I have had many problems stemming from him allowing his mom and sister to run roughshod over us and then getting angry with me when I stood up for us. It's gotten 100% better since we started counseling, though.

I do feel that how you plan the wedding with the extended family begins to establish your boundaries within the new family dynamic. So it's important to start as you mean to go on. By all means, be respectful and don't make decisions out of anger or to intentionally hurt someone else. Some will say, "Oh let so and so have her way, it's only one day." Too often that dynamic extend itself for much longer and becomes harder to change the longer it exists.

I also don't think Ruth and Harris should accept money for the wedding from the MIL unless she can give it to them 100% without strings attached.

[Turtle]

Maybe I'm sensitive because I had an overbearing MIL, but there are not healthy boundaries in place between Harris (and by extension, Ruth) and his mother, IMO. He needs to get some backbone. Ruth has already had enough of that in her young life.

Agreed. I also have a MIL that knows no boundaries, and I certainly missed a lot of giant red flags when DH and I were dating/engaged. I wanted to see the best in her, and wrote off things as her just being concerned/looking out for her son/ect.

They need to set clear boundaries with his mother now or it will cause problems later. Just because his mother seems more normal than her parents, and isn't so overtly crazy/fanatic, doesn't mean they won't have issues.

[Constance Vigilance]

I also don't think Ruth and Harris should accept money for the wedding from the MIL unless she can give it to them 100% without strings attached.

Agreed. I would have seeeeerious reservations about accepting any money from my parents for a wedding for this reason.

[MamaJunebug]

Isn't Mrs. Razing the one who had a degree in maths but gave up any idea of a teaching career when Mr. Razing went all Medieval-ATI on her arse?

So this woman now considers the Duggars worthy of adoration right up there wtih the Triune God?

If that doesn't indicate what a cult ATI/IBLP is, nothing does. Horrifying!

[Hane]

Agreeing with all on the MIL thing. I'm reminded of something presented at the Cana Conference (Catholic pre-marriage counseling) I attended with my fiancé. They presented a scenario in which a meddling MIL was giving her new DIL grief, and the new husband was reluctant to interfere. "So who's the bad guy?" asked the moderator. Very few in the audience realized it was THE HUSBAND. My fiancé and I, being the only ones who'd been married before, readily concurred. The priest stressed the importance of backing up and supporting your spouse.

I was taken aback by all the young couples there who were fluffing these kinds of conflicts off, as if they never could possibly occur--when in fact these conflicts are inevitable in any marriage, and new couples need the tools to handle them.

[Austin]

Agreeing with all on the MIL thing. I'm reminded of something presented at the Cana Conference (Catholic pre-marriage counseling) I attended with my fiancé. They presented a scenario in which a meddling MIL was giving her new DIL grief, and the new husband was reluctant to interfere. "So who's the bad guy?" asked the moderator. Very few in the audience realized it was THE HUSBAND. My fiancé and I, being the only ones who'd been married before, readily concurred. The priest stressed the importance of backing up and supporting your spouse.

I was taken aback by all the young couples there who were fluffing these kinds of conflicts off, as if they never could possibly occur--when in fact these conflicts are inevitable in any marriage, and new couples need the tools to handle them.

Oh, I agree that it's absolutely his issue. He is the one who is now in the position to teach his parents how to treat him as an adult son and he is continuing to allow them treat him (and by extension, his spouse-to-be) as a teenager who needs to please his mother.

[VodouDoll]

Agreeing with all on the MIL thing. I'm reminded of something presented at the Cana Conference (Catholic pre-marriage counseling) I attended with my fiancé. They presented a scenario in which a meddling MIL was giving her new DIL grief, and the new husband was reluctant to interfere. "So who's the bad guy?" asked the moderator. Very few in the audience realized it was THE HUSBAND. My fiancé and I, being the only ones who'd been married before, readily concurred. The priest stressed the importance of backing up and supporting your spouse.

I was taken aback by all the young couples there who were fluffing these kinds of conflicts off, as if they never could possibly occur--when in fact these conflicts are inevitable in any marriage, and new couples need the tools to handle them.

Oh my gosh, me too! At our Pre Cana, there was a question about a MIL who's always criticizing the wife's cooking and housekeeping, even coming into their house when nobody else is home and rearranging the furniture. Her husband tells her she's too sensitive and should fight her own battles. We said that she had to put her foot down and tell her husband he has to have her back or else he can eat the family feud consequences that will come of her standing up for herself, but all of the other couples said that they should just let the mother do what she likes, and that the wife is in the wrong for being bothered by it.

There was another question with a family with a preschool-aged kid, stay at home dad, and a wife who had to work away from home one night a week. He's withdrawing and making plans for both of them without checking with her first and they're both frustrated and feeling disconnected. We said he should stop making plans for both of them because it's rude, and also they should get a babysitter one night a week and have a date night to reconnect. All the other couples said she should quit her job for the good of her marriage, and one couple said that their toddler is probably driving him to drink and he should go to AA (...seriously?)

Then the Pre Cana people paraded a bunch of couples in front of us to stand at the front of the group and vent their marriage troubles for our room full of strangers, but we were supposed to think their marriages were great and find their stories uplifting. One was a man who was a cokehead or something, and his wife stuck with him through rehab. They first met because he stalked her. One was a schlubby guy with a hot hot hot wife from Colombia who barely spoke English and read her typed-out speech on the wonders of NFP phonetically. The guy gave a speech about his porn addiction. We could not fathom how they met each other, unless it was a mail-order bride or green card situation. She said that she'd only met him a few weeks before their wedding. One was a couple whose wife freaked out on her husband for every little innocuous thing he did and considered them gross personal offenses to her (like, for example, she was enraged that he made a friend who has a cat because she's allergic to them).

Pre-Cana was really, really weird. By the end, even the priest was rolling his eyes.

[hoipolloi]

Agree with all who see the major IL problems here. Mr. Harris needs to be a man and stand up for Ruth.

I originally was sympathetic to the MIL's desire to meet Ruth's family, etc. Now, it's apparent that there's a major control issue going on, something that will only get worse as time goes on.

[Peas n carrots]

I've been following Ruth for some time...the mother attending the Duggar "funeral" didn't surprise me. Makes me sad...she'll go to a stranger's fetus' "funeral," but she won't go to her daughter's wedding.

I too, see red flags with the MIL. I agree, she should at the very lease postpone the wedding. Maybe she means well, but ultimately, this is Ruth's wedding, not her wedding. If MIL is helping pay, I would not accept the cash with strings like that attached. You don't need the traditional wedding to have a marriage. But even more worrying is the way Harris lets ma overrule. That problem needs to be addressed STAT.

I understand Ruth probably has issues with understanding what proper parental boundaries are. She's done well so far leading her own life...I hope that she takes a step back and rethinks this relationship. She deserves so much better.

[kb2]

I don't really see these things as enormous red flags, but maybe that's because both my MIL and my own mom are a bit pushy? I read in Ruth's post an uncertainty about getting what she wants--but not that her MIL wouldn't accept no for an answer.

(Blah blah blah, I'm a narcissist but now I'm deleting evidence of that fact.) Anyway, my point is, Ruth is probably feeling a lot of that pressure--that her wedding isn't really for her, it's for everyone else, and then add in her upbringing where she was taught to put everyone ahead of herself...

I think Ruth is afraid to ask for what she wants--and whether she directly deals with her MIL or asks Harris to step up, she has to choose to put herself first, and has already been made to feel guilty about the happiness of Harris's family being decreased if she does this. Even if she tells Harris to go tell his mom they want a small wedding, she'll still feel responsible for not being conciliatory enough. She asks her readers if she should "get over it," as if readers might think she's silly for having a preference about her own wedding. And you know, some commenters are telling her she should just have the big wedding and find a way to deal with it.

Having Harris tell his parents, "Ruth and I want a small wedding," sounds like the right idea. And it could be good to tell her that in cases of MIL, it's only right for the precious child to break bad news instead of always lumping it on the interloper to the family. But why is a new couple doooooooooomed if they didn't figure it out on their own during the first major MIL conflict? It would be more of a red flag if Harris were told to take responsibility and refused, but it looks like they just didn't think of dealing with the situation in that way at all. Yeah, they could use some guidance, but maybe they could, you know, be given guidance before writing Harris off for not reading your ten years of experience in this situation's mind.

ETA: OK, I found the comment where she says she's told Harris to step up and he hasn't. Ahem, carry on everybody, nothing to see here...*ducks*

ETA2: Now I'm just ashamed I went on about myself so much.

[Jade]

She posted today that she and Harris have broken up.

[BravaAmica]

That's crappy. Well, I do think she's much better off without someone who refuses to have any balls regarding his family. His attitude was basically, "My way or the highway, screw you and your feelings and opinions."

[contrary]

oh dear. i had not seen that update. i'm sure she's devastated, but i can't help but feel that this relationship/engagement came way too soon on the heels of her liberation.

[Austin]

She posted today that she and Harris have broken up.

I'm sure she's sad and it will be painful for awhile, but personally, I'm glad. I don't think he was a bad guy (at all), I just think Ruth needs to take time to discover Ruth. She's young and she's got plenty of time to get married and have children if she wants. She has overcome a lot, but I predict there is much more healing to do and she needs to give herself the time to do that work.

((((hugs)))) to Ruth.