Josie and Kelton 2: Kelton Gets His Happily Ever After

[wandering woman]

I am done with the nonstop Instagram photos of Josie and Kelton getting engaged in Arizona. Enough already.

[nelliebelle1197]

9 hours ago, sparklymagie said:

Wait, I think I missed something. I thought she was 16 when she broke off their friendship? A 16 year old is definitely not an 8th grader. Am I misunderstanding? 

I may be - it may have been ninth grade when he creeped her.

[eleanora3]

19 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Um, no. You missed the point completely. The issue is that he felt anger because the parents of an 8th grader did not want her dating a guy in college.

Where do you see that? I didn't get anger at the Bates at all from the story. 

15 hours ago, formergothardite said:

This is a different situation than two people who have dated and break up. The Josie and Kelton situation was one where an adult became angry that a pretty teen he had hung out with for a couple months but never dated didn't want to be his friend. This happened not only between a teen girl and an adult, but a very sheltered teen girl who has limited say in her life and an adult who is off in college able to date other people and able to make life decisions.  

Being told that a teen is not comfortable being in a relation ship with an adult, should not incite anger and years of brooding. The reason it does is because Kelton was raised in a patriarchal society where men rule and women submit. He thought he should get the hot teen girl and he didn't. He was mad, blamed her/her family and has given no indication he has matured enough to understand that his emotions were off base and she  did nothing wrong. His dad had to talk to him and he couldn't even stand to hear about Tori he was so upset over this.

It doesn't matter if she was pretty, it doesn't matter if she looked grown up, it doesn't even matter if she gave him a long explanation, he wasn't entitled to be in a relationship with her, but was given a reason that is easy to understand, but in the end he blamed her for refusing to continue a relationship she wasn't comfortable. This wasn't a star crossed lover situation, this was an adult blaming a sheltered teen and never getting to the point where he understands that he was wrong to have blamed her. 

I agree that it doesn't matter how she looked (and I never mentioned that) . But Kelton NEVER says he felt angry at Josie. Nor does he say he felt entitled to a relationship. Nor does he say he blamed her. Where are you getting all that from?

[formergothardite]

If he didn't blame her, there would be no reason to forgive her. He was deeply upset that a sheltered teen wouldn't be his friend. He refused to understand an explanation that was pretty easy to understand. He was so upset that his father had to speak to him about moving on from a teenager who he had only really hug out with for a couple months. He was so upset that he couldn't stand the thought of the Bates to the point it bothered him when Bobby came to visit Tori and mentioned their relationship. He was so upset that in his senior year of college after dating women, he decided his ideal woman would be just like this sheltered teen. 

That is not a normal reaction to hearing that a teen you find hot and who can only have serious relationships with guys feels like she is too young for a serious relationship. That level of being upset is a red flag for entitlement. 

[eleanora3]

10 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

If he didn't blame her, there would be no reason to forgive her. He was deeply upset that a sheltered teen wouldn't be his friend. He refused to understand an explanation that was pretty easy to understand. He was so upset that his father had to speak to him about moving on from a teenager who he had only really hug out with for a couple months. He was so upset that he couldn't stand the thought of the Bates to the point it bothered him when Bobby came to visit Tori and mentioned their relationship. He was so upset that in his senior year of college after dating women, he decided his ideal woman would be just like this sheltered teen. 

That is not a normal reaction to hearing that a teen you find hot and who can only have serious relationships with guys feels like she is too young for a serious relationship. That level of being upset is a red flag for entitlement. 

I agree that the use of the word "forgive" is the only thing that makes the story weird...but I think that these fundy Christians use the word "forgive" to simply mean "forget and move on" in a lot of cases. He was deeply upset, absolutely. He wished something different had happened, definitely. But he never ever says that he was angry, blamed her, felt entitled to be with her, or disagreed with her reasons. That is all extrapolation.

A 20-year old needing his father to advise him about moving on? And not wanting to see/hear about the girl/family who had caused him pain? Come on! That is so normal. Who hasn't had trouble moving on from their first heartbreak? 

[Hisey]

51 minutes ago, eleanora3 said:

I agree that the use of the word "forgive" is the only thing that makes the story weird...but I think that these fundy Christians use the word "forgive" to simply mean "forget and move on" in a lot of cases. He was deeply upset, absolutely. He wished something different had happened, definitely. But he never ever says that he was angry, blamed her, felt entitled to be with her, or disagreed with her reasons. That is all extrapolation.

Actually, I think the part I bolded is extrapolation.

[nickelodeon]

I can't believe I missed the drama :\ I've been up in here for eons saying how miserable it must be for fundie girls to have all these 20+ year old mans hovering around, waiting to wife you the second you turn 18. This could've been my moment!

[eleanora3]

5 hours ago, Hisey said:

Actually, I think the part I bolded is extrapolation.

Fair enough...but doesn't mean that what I said is extrapolation ISN'T. And if people are going to say "this is a patriarchal society where male entitlement is common" then they can also concede that "this is a Christian society where the word forgive is overused." 

We can all agree that Kelton should not have used the word "forgive" in his story, because it implies that Josie did something that needed to be forgiven. But I still don't think we can attribute other emotions and thoughts to him (such as "he felt entitled to be in a relationship with her" "he felt angry at the Bates" etc.) I like to give him the benefit of the doubt because I know what it's like to have your heart broken and feel anger and resentment and pain even when the person breaking your heart did nothing wrong...and that's what his story sounded like to me. 

[Hisey]

Seems odd he got his “heart broken” when they weren’t even dating.

[Rachel333]

Personally, I do think the fact that he was an adult man feeling that way about a minor is directly relevant here.

[formergothardite]

He got his heart broken and spent years brooding over a teen he never even dated. If this was my teen daughter who had a man get that up over her I would warn her that he is showing some major red flags. 

ETA: If I made a post asking for advice and said several years ago I had been friends with guy for a couple months but ended the friendship because I wasn't comfortable continuing the relationship. I had found out he was really upset, so upset he couldn't even see our mutual friends, his dad had to talk to him and then he said he wanted to find a wife just like me. He wants to be back in my life, should I be concerned about him? I'm 100% sure I would get a shit ton of posts saying this guy is showing some major red flags.

[freethemall]

13 hours ago, wandering woman said:

I am done with the nonstop Instagram photos of Josie and Kelton getting engaged in Arizona. Enough already.

I agree, but it was Utah! 

[Hisey]

58 minutes ago, freethemall said:

I agree, but it was Utah! 

I think UP wants to get its money's worth from the trip.

On the subject of older guys obsessing over young girls. . . This was Josie Bates. She had two protective parents and a huge family behind her. Her parents protected her from Kelton, by stepping in and saying she was too young.

So, yes, we could say, "What's the harm in Kelton going after Josie? She was never in any real danger." But what about young girls who don't have a supportive, protective family? What if there was just Josie and just Kelton, and he was gradually getting more into her, and there was no one to step in and tell him to take off? And what if there was no one to tell Josie that it was better to wait till she was older? 

Not all girls have Josie's support system. That's why, as a society, adult men are not supposed to pursue minor girls. Some of these girls are more vulnerable than others.

[Hisey]

On 8/20/2018 at 10:48 AM, Ivycoveredtower said:

you're probably right that it is some type of way to boost ratings but I Have to point out that it's up not TLC. Micheal went to DC for her proposal. Tori and Bobby went into the mountains I believe the Bates do tend to go over the top with both courtships and poposal's then the Duggars well besides Jinger who got to go to new york. 

If they have a contract with UP that specifies that UP controls things like venues for courtships, then yes, it *is* up to the network.

Without the show, the Bates would not be having "over the top" courtship proposals. Hell, when the Duggars started, there was not such thing as a "courtship proposal"  at all. Instead, courtship proposals (not "proposal's") were simply a request made informally to the girl and her family.

[marmalade]

True dat. Remember Ben asking Jessa to court in Boob's hole of an office?

[ViolaSebastian]

12 minutes ago, marmalade said:

True dat. Remember Ben asking Jessa to court in Boob's hole of an office?

Gah, one of the most awkward moments in televised Duggar history. And that’s saying something. 

[JordynDarby5]

Some even if they have the support don't realize they don't always know danger there in. There was a teen in my area who met a man on Facebook who was 30 years old.  She didn't see anything wrong with that. They talked for months on Facebook and she liked him because amazingly they had so much in common. Well, one day she happened to leave her Facebook page open and her father saw it. He immediately called the police. The man had a record for sexually abusing teen girls and porn. Had he not done that she would have been his next victim.  Thank God he did. It was only then that the teen realized the danger she had been in. It never once occurred to her there was a reason the 30 befriended her and that he conveniently had so much in common with her. She naively believed everything he said was true. 

[Hisey]

4 hours ago, marmalade said:

True dat. Remember Ben asking Jessa to court in Boob's hole of an office?

Yes, I’m convinced the whole “courtship proposal” thing is an invention by the tv networks. Can anyone who grew up fundie remember any “courtship  proposals” that occurred in their youth?

[RainbowSky]

On 8/19/2018 at 11:29 PM, TatiFish9 said:

I didn't see that one.  So cool of Kelly. Kind of funny, too.  Was it on United Bates of America or Bringing up Bates? Kelly seems really close to Erin. She often mentions that Erin is most like her. Gil also commented that Kelly and Erin are similar.

I found the clip I was talking about.

Erin gets a cooking kit

It was a cooking basket given by all the Duggar girls (not just Jill) for a bridal gift. Taking a look at it now, I have a strong feeling  Jana was the mastermind behind that project with maybe a few suggestions from all the older girls. lol Jill went out of her way to soften the blow by adding that they put some of their own recipes in there along with take out menus. They were wrong for that. lol Erin seemed embarrassed but took it well. 

 

Any guesses on what Jill's contributions were?

[formergothardite]

4 hours ago, Hisey said:

Yes, I’m convinced the whole “courtship proposal” thing is an invention by the tv networks. Can anyone who grew up fundie remember any “courtship  proposals” that occurred in their youth?

Not really. I'm thinking back to when fundie maidens blogged their every moments and I can't remember any of them having big courtship proposals either. Actual wedding proposals were pretty tame and not over the top. 

If the Bates were still living in a tiny house because reality television had never provided them with a bigger one, I think if they did courtship proposals it would be like the painfully awkward one Zach Bates did the first time around. All the family was there and he handed her roses and asked if she wanted to court him. 

 

[mollysmom]

7 hours ago, Hisey said:

Can anyone who grew up fundie remember any “courtship  proposals” that occurred in their youth?

Absolutely not!! It wasn't the spectacle they are making it now. It was simply the guy going to your parents to ask permission to court their daughter. 

[nelliebelle1197]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Not really. I'm thinking back to when fundie maidens blogged their every moments and I can't remember any of them having big courtship proposals either. Actual wedding proposals were pretty tame and not over the top. 

If the Bates were still living in a tiny house because reality television had never provided them with a bigger one, I think if they did courtship proposals it would be like the painfully awkward one Zach Bates did the first time around. All the family was there and he handed her roses and asked if she wanted to court him. 

 

Wait, you mean the Arby's proposal was not over the top!?

[Audrey2]

22 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Wait, you mean the Arby's proposal was not over the top!?

Neh, you need something really fancy, like an Applebees or Olive Garden proposal for that.

I'll see myself out now.

[formergothardite]

 

27 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Wait, you mean the Arby's proposal was not over the top!?

It wasn't a courtship proposal! That was an actual proposal for marriage.  Didn't they get a ruler for their courtship? 

Did't some other fundie get engaged in a restaurant? At a Mexican place with her family sitting around? 

I think stuff like that would be what was happening if the Bates had never found fame and money. 

[ViolaSebastian]

I'm holding out for a Shoney's proposal, myself. Dream big!